Current Events > Elden Ring Director Miyazaki won't stop making difficult games.

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BlackBlueButts
03/01/22 5:29:27 PM
#1:


Still, for every vanquisher of Miyazakis monsters, theres another who glumly sets down the controller. I do feel apologetic toward anyone who feels theres just too much to overcome in my games, Miyazaki told me. He held his head in his hands, then smiled. I just want as many players as possible to experience the joy that comes from overcoming hardship.

A theory suggests itself: the challenging circumstances of Miyazaki's early life, followed by a string of hard-won achievements, provided the template for the emotional trajectory that many players experience in his games. Miyazakiwhose face, behind his glasses and wispy goatee, is youthful and jocularresists the idea. "I wouldn't say that my life story, to put it in grandiose terms, has affected the way I make games," he said. "A more accurate way to look at it is problem solving. We all face problems in our daily lives. Finding answers is always a satisfying thing. But in life, you know, there's not a lot that gives us those feelings readily."

The question of how hard games should be is closely tied to the question of whom games are for. Some argue that they should be accessible: gently guided experiences that adapt to different skills, interests, and physical capabilities. Others say that they should operate on their own terms. In this model, difficulty is the creator's prerogative; not every game has to be for everyone.

Miyazaki's work is often invoked by the latter camp, as it suggests that challenge, not escapism or uplift, is the medium's crucial quality. "It's an interesting question," Miyazaki told me. "We are always looking to improve, but, in our games specifically, hardship is what gives meaning to the experience. So it's not something we're willing to abandon at the moment. It's our identity."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/hidetaka-miyazaki-sees-death-as-a-feature-not-a-bug

Some interesting snippets.

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#2
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WaterLink
03/01/22 5:33:26 PM
#3:


BlackBlueButts posted...
not every game has to be for everyone.

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CelestialVoices
03/01/22 5:33:43 PM
#4:


good for him

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Stalolin
03/01/22 5:34:17 PM
#5:


I would say that a certain faction of CE is on suicide watch reading this but I don't think they were ever sincere anyway.

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UnfairRepresent
03/01/22 5:34:45 PM
#6:


Once again his explanation is "Well the elitist fanboys expect it so we have to oblidge them" rather than why it's a good idea.

"Not every game has to be for everyone" is such a bullshit rationalization.

If you added mandatory pointless 7 minute pauses where nothing happens into the middle of Doom Eternal every time you enter a new a room. It'd make the game suck.

Going "well not every game has to be everyone." wouldn't be a defense of that

I don't even have a dog in this fight. I just think the toxic nature of the hardcore fans is not a good thing.

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UnholyMudcrab
03/01/22 5:35:53 PM
#7:


Why, I do believe this calls for yet another fucking 300 post topic about Souls games easy mode

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Sictis
03/01/22 5:35:58 PM
#8:


Why is it so hard for some people to accept the idea that a developer simply wants their game to be difficult

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JimRob
03/01/22 5:36:42 PM
#9:


He shouldn't stop making them either.

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NightMarishPie
03/01/22 5:37:23 PM
#10:


Please no one respond to Unfair's gimmick post.

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#11
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meralonne
03/01/22 5:42:26 PM
#12:


UnfairRepresent posted...
Going "well not every game has to be everyone." wouldn't be a defense of that

I don't even have a dog in this fight. I just think the toxic nature of the hardcore fans is not a good thing.

Why should From have to defend how they build games, though? This has nothing to do with the "hardcore fans". Should we be telling Square Enix not to make games with emo, buster-sword wielding protagonists because not everybody likes that? Or that developers shouldn't make turn-based RPGs or 2D side-scrolling Metroidvania-style games anymore because some people don't like those?

Why does From get all the heat for making games the way they want to when other developers can make whatever the fuck they want?

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TheShadowViper
03/01/22 5:44:34 PM
#13:


UnfairRepresent posted...
Once again his explanation is "Well the elitist fanboys expect it so we have to oblidge them" rather than why it's a good idea.

"Not every game has to be for everyone" is such a bullshit rationalization.

If you added mandatory pointless 7 minute pauses where nothing happens into the middle of Doom Eternal every time you enter a new a room. It'd make the game suck.

Going "well not every game has to be everyone." wouldn't be a defense of that

I don't even have a dog in this fight. I just think the toxic nature of the hardcore fans is not a good thing.
You don't seem to have an intelligent opinion in this fight either. He stated why it was a good idea, that the gameplay of their games depends on conquering challenges, of learning and being rewarded for that learning. That is their identity, and "hardcore fanboys" don't have anything to do with it.
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Punished_Blinx
03/01/22 5:46:04 PM
#14:


They've got a successful model and it works. They just released a GOTY contender that will be a huge success and that's with what is likely a much smaller budget than the AAA competition.

I think they're doing things fine.

A pause button would be a nice though.

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DeadBankerDream
03/01/22 5:49:26 PM
#15:


The question of how hard games should be is closely tied to the question of whom games are for. Some argue that they should be accessible: gently guided experiences that adapt to different skills, interests, and physical capabilities. Others say that they should operate on their own terms. In this model, difficulty is the creator's prerogative; not every game has to be for everyone.

Some people say creative minds should be allowed to live out their creativity

Others say they should be forced to put in an easy mode for no reason other than to shut up a couple of duckfuckers on twitter.

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Lost_All_Senses
03/01/22 5:53:25 PM
#16:


I been saying this was the point there's no easy mode in all those topics. It seemed obvious.

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UnfairRepresent
03/01/22 6:02:54 PM
#17:


meralonne posted...


Why should From have to defend how they build games, though?
This also isn't a defense.

"Well why should Doom Devs have to defend long periods of fuck all happening!? It's THEIR GAME!"

meralonne posted...


Why does From get all the heat for making games the way they want to when other developers can make whatever the fuck they want?
Because they're doing a lot of really bad game design that does nothing but put people off playing the series

And their + your own defense of that is "Well the they have to do it because the fans expect it."

Which is true but a bad thing.

TheShadowViper posted...
You don't seem to have an intelligent opinion in this fight either. He stated why it was a good idea, that the gameplay of their games depends on conquering challenges, of learning and being rewarded for that learning. That is their identity, and "hardcore fanboys" don't have anything to do with it.

That's literally the reason they're doing it. He flat out said it and has said it before.

Take the RE1make. Has an achievement for beating the game only using the Knife. Hardly anyone has done it (I have) . It's a challenge you have to conquer.

It's not the only way to play the game.

Take Silent Hill 2, the greatest horror game ever made. Not only has combat difficulty but also puzzle difficulty for player satification.

On beginner difficulty the game has no random encounter enemies. Only the bosses and preset ones. Allegedly.

I say allegedly because I've never played it on beginner and never will.,

But if someone has and that's how they enjoyed the game (and hell, maybe they suck at games and beating SH2 on beiginner was a harder challenge for them than you beating Dark Souls without dying)

Then good for them. It's nothing but a good thing. Why would you be bothered by them at all? It doesn't effect you.

Removing brightness and volume settings from your game doesn't make your game "Better because it;'s a challenge. Not all games are for everyone!" it just kinda makes your game badly made.

Yet the same logic is used here solely for making an inferior experience for millions of people because "fuck them, they're not part of my treehouse."

It's just utter toxicity. It would be laughed at in any other medium.

Imagine a Netflix show where you couldn't pause or skip to your favorite scene because "It's not what the creators of the show intended"

It's just dumb.

Hell the amount of trainers and mods for the Souls series that allows you to cheat + the sheer popularity of them shows you the demand for it. And not a single one of the people who used them have effected your gameplay experience one bit.

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FortuneCookie
03/01/22 6:03:54 PM
#18:


Every time I read that name, I think Studio Ghibli.

<_<
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SocialistGamer
03/01/22 6:04:40 PM
#19:


Inb4 Twitter calls Miyazaki abelist.

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MC_BatCommander
03/01/22 6:05:42 PM
#20:


FortuneCookie posted...
Every time I read that name, I think Studio Ghibli.

<_<

The two Miyazakis should team up on a game

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refmon
03/01/22 6:08:49 PM
#21:


BlackBlueButts posted...
not every game has to be for everyone.


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Unknown5uspect
03/01/22 6:11:04 PM
#23:


Ofc UR in here with the dumb shit.
UnfairRepresent posted...
Take the RE1make. Has an achievement for beating the game only using the Knife. Hardly anyone has done it (I have) . It's a challenge you have to conquer.
Equating Souls games with this is fucking stupid as shit and doesn't work. You have complete freedom to play these games in a variety of ways with a variety of weapons that make the game easier or harder depending on how you take to them. If people can't get through them then they can't. It isn't a condemnation of the game or the players can't do it. It just is.

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FortuneCookie
03/01/22 6:11:49 PM
#24:


MC_BatCommander posted...
The two Miyazakis should team up on a game

"Video gaming was a mistake." ~ The Two Miyazakis
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Jagr_68
03/01/22 6:11:59 PM
#25:


Sictis posted...
Why is it so hard for some people to accept the idea that a developer simply wants their game to be difficult

Because people are fucking babies about the world not revolving entirely around their interests.

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meralonne
03/01/22 6:38:56 PM
#26:


UnfairRepresent posted...
"Well why should Doom Devs have to defend long periods of fuck all happening!? It's THEIR GAME!"

That's not the same thing and you know it.


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Unknown5uspect
03/01/22 6:39:52 PM
#27:


meralonne posted...
That's not the same thing and you know it.
I don't think he does. Look at all the other stupid fucking analogies he tried to make.

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bsp77
03/01/22 6:43:52 PM
#28:


UnfairRepresent posted...
Once again his explanation is "Well the elitist fanboys expect it so we have to oblidge them" rather than why it's a good idea.

"Not every game has to be for everyone" is such a bullshit rationalization.

If you added mandatory pointless 7 minute pauses where nothing happens into the middle of Doom Eternal every time you enter a new a room. It'd make the game suck.

Going "well not every game has to be everyone." wouldn't be a defense of that

I don't even have a dog in this fight. I just think the toxic nature of the hardcore fans is not a good thing.
Those who complain are so much more toxic than the very supportive Souls fanbase. People like you come in spewing crap and so the fanbase responds negatively, and somehow you think the issue is the fanbase. It's pathetic.

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eston
03/01/22 6:44:07 PM
#29:


That's good, no one asked him to

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Mormaurd
03/01/22 6:44:30 PM
#30:


Difficult is fine as long as its balanced.

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Punished_Blinx
03/01/22 6:51:11 PM
#31:


The difficulty debate reminds me a lot of the timer debate in Dead Rising.

People argued and argued that it makes them not want to play the game. So they gradually kept compromising until it was removed completely. But the design of the game just wasn't there to account for the removal. So the last game was a mediocre entry that killed the franchise.

If From wants to figure out an easy mode they can. If not? Oh well. That is their decision. The people playing the games enjoy them.

At a certain point it makes more sense to cater to your audience than try to broadly appeal to everyone. Remember when every game tried to cram in online multiplayer to get more sales?

On top of this From games are getting gradually more popular anyway.

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I4NRulez
03/01/22 6:57:37 PM
#32:


Punished_Blinx posted...
If From wants to figure out an easy mode they can. If not?

The issue is that the game has mechanics to make the game easier though. I've run people through entire sections of souls games pretty much doing all the work. Not to mention you can summon 2-3 at a time.

The people that cry for an easy mode just want an easy button and want to kill things in 1 shot. That works for games like Uncharted where it's narrative-driven. Souls games aren't like that though.

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Punished_Blinx
03/01/22 7:04:47 PM
#33:


I4NRulez posted...
The issue is that the game has mechanics to make the game easier though. I've run people through entire sections of souls games pretty much doing all the work. Not to mention you can summon 2-3 at a time.

The people that cry for an easy mode just want an easy button and want to kill things in 1 shot. That works for games like Uncharted where it's narrative-driven. Souls games aren't like that though.

All I'm saying if they want to add an easy mode for a future game on their own that is also their right (I think Sekiro could have maybe had one for example since that doesn't seem to be as build focused). I wouldn't be upset about that either. It's entirely up to them either way.

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kuwab0
03/01/22 7:05:24 PM
#34:


Magic is the easy mode

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St0rmFury
03/01/22 7:06:52 PM
#35:


UnfairRepresent posted...
If you added mandatory pointless 7 minute pauses where nothing happens into the middle of Doom Eternal every time you enter a new a room. It'd make the game suck.

Going "well not every game has to be everyone." wouldn't be a defense of that
Bruh, that's a strawman.

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#36
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Gwynevere
03/01/22 7:29:35 PM
#37:


Someone post that interview where Miyazaki talks about being a masochist

There's never gonna be an easy mode in Souls games because Miyazaki loves to express his masochism through his art

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Stalolin
03/01/22 7:34:29 PM
#38:


I'll just say this:

There is no set of circumstances or argument that will make UR change his mind. Either because he's trolling or his brain just won't let in those contradictory arguments. So it doesn't matter. Just leave him alone.

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gmanthebest
03/01/22 7:41:34 PM
#39:


Good. If people are mad about that, they can just not play it

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ElleRagu
03/01/22 7:42:27 PM
#40:


elden ring is the easiest souls game though

it's already hyper casual and easy to pick up


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Elmer_Glue
03/01/22 7:45:12 PM
#41:


Beat Elden Ring earlier today, the spirit ashes make the game stupidly easy. First tried all the late game bosses with it. It's definitely more accessible than previous games.

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ultimate reaver
03/01/22 7:45:55 PM
#42:


ABLEIST game designer heho miyamoto MOCKS disabled gamers

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x_lone_x_wolf_x
03/01/22 8:09:57 PM
#43:


Elden ring has an easy mode. It's called summoning cooperators. Game goes from damn near impossible to " oh hey those two phantoms demolished that boss!"

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UnfairRepresent
03/02/22 6:41:25 AM
#44:


meralonne posted...
That's not the same thing and you know it.
"Bananas don't float"

You're missing the point.

The point is "The devs are allowed to do what they like." isn't a defense of anything. It's a lazy non-statement and frankly an admission that you think the concept has no rational defense.

If someone was putting dirt into their tea, the notion of "Well they;'re allowed to do that!" would be seen as a weird explanation for WHY they do it. What the benefit is.

As would be "Well dirt tea isn't for everyone."

And you know it.

Just make some tea and have dirt as an option for people who want dirt in their tea. That way literally everyone wins

bsp77 posted...
Those who complain are so much more toxic than the very supportive Souls fanbase. People like you come in spewing crap and so the fanbase responds negatively, and somehow you think the issue is the fanbase. It's pathetic.
That doesn't make any sense

"the actual problem with the toxic fanbase is YOU talking about them." that's very Tucker Carlson logic. "Actually the problem with Trump is THE LIBERALS WHO KEEP COMPLAINING!"

And once again, no actual defense

Stalolin posted...
I'll just say this:

There is no set of circumstances or argument that will make UR change his mind. Either because he's trolling or his brain just won't let in those contradictory arguments. So it doesn't matter. Just leave him alone.
"I have no argument so I will insult you."

Again, the toxicity.

Notice how if you ask a Skyrim fan why the game has archery and sneaking they don't have to resort to this nonsense to explain it. They can just explain why those are good things.

Hmmmm.

Punished_Blinx posted...


At a certain point it makes more sense to cater to your audience than try to broadly appeal to everyone.

Punished_Blinx posted...


At a certain point it makes more sense to cater to your audience than try to broadly appeal to everyone.
Businsess wise sure>?

The criticism is, do you want to support and endorse a toxic fanbase that promotes bad game design and elitism?

It's kind like how some games just slap tits into them or Hatred shoved excessive murder of innocent people to appeal to certain people.

I mean it really comes down to something this simple:

Would it bother you if millions of people had an amazing time playing a version of Dark Souls that you would never ever play because it was easier?

If the answer is "yes" then you're toxic IMO. And that's not a good thing. It's not something to proud of

Would be like if millions of people got furiously angry at the Oddworld Abe's Oddysee remake because it added an optional quicksave feature.

Just don't fucking use it if you don't want to.

Honestly Pathologic 2's dev utterly destroyed this silly gatekeeper logic.

https://youtu.be/q00T0xxj2o0?t=2417

They released a game.
It was really hard. It was intended to be hard. The Devs wanted it to be hard and the intended purpose of the game was that you died over and over. Part of the art/story and emotion was built on that rockbed. The absolute intended experience was to fail repeatedly, struggle and most people give up before they reach the end.

People complained the game is too hard.
Devs added in optional difficulty settings and openly said "We don't like these and don't want you to use them since it's not the experience we intended but since you wanted them here they are as an option."

Then everyone got to enjoy the game and absolutely nobody suffered in any way whatsoever. The fanbase is fantastic and there is no toxicity at all of any note.

The devs even noted that a ton of people who played their games just used cheats and mods anyway so why not just make it easier for them if that's the experience they wanted even if the devs didn't.

"We'd rather give players a tweaked experience than none at all." ~ Sane person

Just immediately inadvertantly proves that the Dark Souls nonsense is purely because their fans are largely toxic and the devs know that, so they play to them. Not for any actual benefit beyond feeling superior to others

And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

And on an unrelated cheeky personal note: Pathologic 1 and 2 are far superior to Dark Souls in terms of atmosphere and writing if you're a "Games are art" or "I like hard games." snob.

And (x3) guess what? I've never used the sliders in Pathologic 2. It's almost like giving the player choice does nothing but empower the experience of the player! Fancy that!

Which again says something I think.

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ImagineUsngAlts
03/02/22 6:45:38 AM
#45:


St0rmFury posted...
Bruh, that's a strawman.
His entire gimmick is making strawmen while accusing other people of making strawmen.
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UnfairRepresent
03/02/22 6:49:48 AM
#46:


ImagineUsngAlts posted...
His entire gimmick is making strawmen while accusing other people of making strawmen.

And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

Called it

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scar the 1
03/02/22 6:50:33 AM
#47:


A poster saying "I don't even have a dog in this fight" and then going on to post walls of text should be a clue to anyone that he's being needlessly argumentative for no reason.

Personally I would welcome easy modes in Souls games, but I don't think they should be added. The problem with this whole debacle isn't game difficulty, it's just toxic gamer fans. Like a lot of the time.

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UnfairRepresent
03/02/22 6:52:16 AM
#48:


scar the 1 posted...
A poster saying "I don't even have a dog in this fight" and then going on to post walls of text should be a clue to anyone that he's being needlessly argumentative for no reason.

Personally I would welcome easy modes in Souls games, but I don't think they should be added. The problem with this whole debacle isn't game difficulty, it's just toxic gamer fans. Like a lot of the time.
I like that you randomly insult me and then agree entirely with my position in the same breath.

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DespondentDeity
03/02/22 6:53:15 AM
#49:


https://youtu.be/zOJLGpfnX34

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scar the 1
03/02/22 6:54:45 AM
#50:


UnfairRepresent posted...
I like that you randomly insult me and then agree entirely with my position in the same breath.
Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason.

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ImagineUsngAlts
03/02/22 6:56:27 AM
#51:


UnfairRepresent posted...
And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

Called it

More strawmen.
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