Current Events > DND afficianados is it better to cast Slow on the enemy team or Haste on yours?

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#1
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ThyCorndog
03/05/22 4:38:20 PM
#2:


in my experience, debuffing enemies is more effective

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lolife67
03/05/22 4:38:40 PM
#3:


Slow
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Funkydog
03/05/22 4:40:28 PM
#4:


Depends how slow works in whatever ruleset you use tbh, but slow is generally really helpful as less attacks coming in, means more focus on all out assault.

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marthsheretoo
03/05/22 4:40:47 PM
#5:


Depends on what percentage of the enemies you can hit.

Against a bunch of weaker foes, Haste will clearly be better.

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MorbidFaithless
03/05/22 4:41:53 PM
#6:


It's like the difference between bane and bless. Bless is good because you automatically get the effects. With bane the enemy has to fail a DC to even be affected. It depends on your playstyle I guess.

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s0nicfan
03/05/22 4:43:08 PM
#7:


Haste if your stats are low. Slow can be resisted, haste just works.

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Gobstoppers12
03/05/22 4:43:47 PM
#8:


Slow is kind of insane, honestly.

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#9
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Tyranthraxus
03/05/22 4:49:03 PM
#10:


Depends on the age of the party.

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Gobstoppers12
03/05/22 4:51:27 PM
#11:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This is super important, too, since opportunity attacks are reactions. When an enemy is slowed, that means it has its speed halved and can't make opportunity attacks, therefore you can essentially kite them even as a melee player.

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008Zulu
03/05/22 4:55:02 PM
#12:


Haste if you are fighting a single target, Slow if you are against a group.

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synth_real
03/05/22 5:08:04 PM
#13:


Why not both?

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CommonJoe
03/05/22 5:08:28 PM
#14:


What do you mean? The answer is obviously smite.

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#15
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synth_real
03/05/22 5:12:07 PM
#16:


OVERGOATED posted...
It's a level 5 one shot. I only have room for one spell after preparing fireball >_>
So you wanna be that mage who fireballs half the party by "accident"

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CommonJoe
03/05/22 5:13:08 PM
#17:


synth_real posted...
So you wanna be that mage who fireballs half the party by "accident"

Presumably he has cantrips as well.

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#18
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008Zulu
03/05/22 6:00:42 PM
#19:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Slow is an AoE spell though, you risk getting your teammates. Maybe if the Barbarian were the only one in close it'd work.

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#20
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gunplagirl
03/05/22 6:13:49 PM
#21:


https://youtu.be/6TP_TXb9zos

Haste is suboptimal. Well. Okay, so there's one trick you can pull, ONE TIME with the DM ever. Have your strongest character challenge a boss or whatever to a one on one duel, then have your haste casting unit ask the enemy if they can give a buff to the enemy to make things fair. As soon as the combat is about to start, stop concentration on the spell. That causes a round where the enemy can do absolutely nothing. That's when you have everyone else get basically free attacks on the enemy and "cheat" a victory. That's because RAW stopping concentration on haste royally fucks over the target.

Now, if it was haste like in pathfinder which affects the entire party? Then it would be a staple spell. In 5E? Lmao nope, bless upcast is better unless all your units are mages who cast spells with an enemy saving throw.

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gunplagirl
03/05/22 6:15:37 PM
#22:


Oh. And I've seen the math that they used, as well as an excel chart of the AC of all enemy units in the DMG and MM. So from what I can tell the math from that video is correct.

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#23
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Sackgurl
03/05/22 7:53:28 PM
#24:


1) if a party member has the 'sharpshooter' or 'great weapon master' feat, haste is better
2) if you're a sorcerer and you plan on having twinned spell, haste is better
3) otherwise, the correct answer is "hypnotic pattern instead" because it's like slow but instead of reducing their actions and granting followup saves, it removes them entirely and does not grant followup saves

slow is not worth a caster's concentration

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


seems like the DMG carry capacity variant rules might interfere with this a bit

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gunplagirl
03/05/22 8:01:10 PM
#25:


Sackgurl posted...
1) if a party member has the 'sharpshooter' or 'great weapon master' feat, haste is better
2) if you're a sorcerer and you plan on having twinned spell, haste is better
3) otherwise, the correct answer is "hypnotic pattern instead" because it's like slow but instead of reducing their actions and granting followup saves, it removes them entirely and does not grant followup saves

slow is not worth a caster's concentration

seems like the DMG carry capacity variant rules might interfere with this a bit
This. But especially the last part, I'm too lazy to double check but I know that carrying for flight has some weird stuff that makes it so it's not feasible and that's why it never gets recommended in any optimal strategy guides for roles. Because it's not gonna happen RAW.

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Sackgurl
03/05/22 8:07:58 PM
#26:


gunplagirl posted...
Because it's not gonna happen RAW.

well, RAW it is, because the rules as written were designed for a pre-generated party containing three champion fighters and all the additional released content was not playtested much, and often not to the point of identifying a need to enable things like variant encumbrance

RAW carry capacity is strength x 15, so unless his character is one of those 8 strength monks it'll work on almost any medium target, except maybe the ones in heavy armor.

variant encumbrance imposes disadvantage on strength checks at strength x 10, and almost any DM worth his salt wouldn't grant the player freedom from disadvantage on the grapple check if he's immediately taking to the skies, even if he does get to do the rest of his turn before the enemy can make an escape attempt with the player at disadvantage

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gunplagirl
03/05/22 8:14:19 PM
#27:


Sackgurl posted...
well, RAW it is, because the rules as written were designed for a pre-generated party containing three champion fighters and all the additional released content was not playtested much, and often not to the point of identifying a need to enable things like variant encumbrance

RAW carry capacity is strength x 15, so unless his character is one of those 8 strength monks it'll work on almost any medium target, except maybe the ones in heavy armor.

variant encumbrance imposes disadvantage on strength checks at strength x 10, and almost any DM worth his salt wouldn't grant the player freedom from disadvantage on the grapple check if he's immediately taking to the skies, even if he does get to do the rest of his turn before the enemy can make an escape attempt with the player at disadvantage
I was around halfway through reading that I thought to myself "wow, I really don't think I like this sackgurl poster"

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Sackgurl
03/05/22 8:23:22 PM
#28:


i was halfway through writing it when i realized i don't like 5e

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Xavier_On_High
03/05/22 8:25:04 PM
#29:


The best possible outcome is to stop wasting your life playing DnD.

Slow is clearly better.

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gunplagirl
03/05/22 8:28:35 PM
#30:


Sackgurl posted...
i was halfway through writing it when i realized i don't like 5e
That's valid, after playing pathfinder where you actually benefit from multiclassing and can continue to grow base stats above 20 without enchanted items, I realized 5e is too restrictive even at the average level of most campaigns.

Xavier_On_High posted...
The best possible outcome is to stop wasting your life playing DnD.

Slow is clearly better.
Valid.

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Sackgurl
03/05/22 8:30:27 PM
#31:


yeah i tried running a low magic / high tech campaign once, where unique weapons were those that gained properties of other weapons due to the advancement of technology

i thought it was a neat idea but the players got bored

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Unsuprised_Pika
03/05/22 8:39:40 PM
#32:


Only dabbled but I would assume slow for bosses/really powerful enemies but haste will be better when facing a lot of enemies at once.
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orcus_snake
03/05/22 8:54:01 PM
#33:


synth_real posted...
that

This is funny because last week was the first time i casted fireball and I DID hit half my team by accident, I wanted to hit 3 enemies, worded it to my DM that I wanted to hit just 2 because my AoE would not be able to hit 3, he says "yes you can" and I say "okay then"
he asks 3 of my party members to make the saving throw, I explain that when I casted hunger of hadar earlier I worded it so that the edge would be right besides them so it you can infer that I'm right now also trying to also not hit them and this is why I was targetting two of them on my first claim, but I let him decide that due to thsi being a very pwoerful spell and this being my first time casting it, accidents can happen.
they were obviously annoyed but I DID warn them not to get into the enclsoed space with 3 minotaurs because I was gonna AoE the shit out of the place.

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synth_real
03/05/22 9:05:42 PM
#34:


orcus_snake posted...
This is funny because last week was the first time i casted fireball and I DID hit half my team by accident, I wanted to hit 3 enemies, worded it to my DM that I wanted to hit just 2 because my AoE would not be able to hit 3, he says "yes you can" and I say "okay then"
he asks 3 of my party members to make the saving throw, I explain that when I casted hunger of hadar earlier I worded it so that the edge would be right besides them so it you can infer that I'm right now also trying to also not hit them and this is why I was targetting two of them on my first claim, but I let him decide that due to thsi being a very pwoerful spell and this being my first time casting it, accidents can happen.
they were obviously annoyed but I DID warn them not to get into the enclsoed space with 3 minotaurs because I was gonna AoE the shit out of the place.
This is why when the party notices the mage has fireball prepared, they make him/her/them go in first

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Gobstoppers12
03/05/22 9:13:40 PM
#35:


We did a one-shot once a couple years back, when I first experimented with sorcerer...I think it was also a level 5 one-shot. Long story short, there was a dragon on the third floor of a castle with its butt kinda sticking out. My character had gotten knocked out of the window, so he was on the ground. So he said "Fuck this dragon I'm gonna fireball it"

Obviously, the thought occurred that...if the rest of the party is still up there, with a dragon, then fireballing the dragon will probably fireball most of the party.

But given how angry he was, from a character standpoint, I decided he wouldn't have stopped because of that. Especially since it was a one-shot and he had just met those people an hour prior.

They were not happy.

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#36
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orcus_snake
03/06/22 10:11:03 AM
#37:


synth_real posted...
due to thsi being a very pwoerful spell and this being my first time casting it, accidents can happen.

My party certainly did not :P

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Sackgurl
03/07/22 8:25:40 AM
#38:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


The gauntlets definitely help--both from a rules alignment and roleplay believability perspective!

@orcus_snake the solution to fireball problems is for wizards to take the alert feat. Helps in *many* ways, not only do you go first usually but you never risk the dreaded no reaction (no shield!) surprised condition.


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Ilishe
03/07/22 8:26:37 AM
#39:


Haste

No save DC, you're buffing. Helps dps get an extra hit in, huge. Movement bonus not to be scoffed at.

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EvilMegas
03/07/22 8:32:41 AM
#40:


Slow is better for the AC reduction alone.

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Sackgurl
03/07/22 8:33:32 AM
#41:


Slow has follow-up saves, people.


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averagejoel
03/07/22 8:40:21 AM
#42:


Haste is a bad spell. as mentioned, Bless is actually better for damage.

the notable exception to this is if you have a Rogue; the extra action allows them to more easily get a second Sneak Attack in.

but missing a turn if you drop concentration is a massive penalty. it's not worth the risk.

Slow is situationally better than Hypnotic Pattern because it doesn't have friendly fire and some enemies (particularly at higher levels) are immune to being charmed

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Sackgurl
03/07/22 8:52:13 AM
#43:


Higher level enemies also tend to make follow up saves rapidly

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orcus_snake
03/07/22 10:14:17 AM
#44:


Sackgurl posted...
The gauntlets definitely help--both from a rules alignment and roleplay believability perspective!

@orcus_snake the solution to fireball problems is for wizards to take the alert feat. Helps in *many* ways, not only do you go first usually but you never risk the dreaded no reaction (no shield!) surprised condition.

Thanks, will keep that in mind tho if I want to max my charisma I do need 3 points so a 2 pointer and a half feat, sadly I dont think I will be able to fit this as my campaign will not allow more than 2 extra ability score increases. I'm also a warlock tho ifthat matters :P

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#45
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Sackgurl
03/07/22 2:56:56 PM
#46:


unless your party has someone with great weapon master/sharpshooter

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averagejoel
03/07/22 3:27:28 PM
#47:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

yes, I know. the additional action from Haste allows the Rogue to ready an action; thus more easily getting another sneak attack

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#48
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averagejoel
03/07/22 4:02:26 PM
#49:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

oh Slow is absolutely better than Haste. I was comparing Haste to Bless. the reason Haste is good for Rogues is that they focus on one single attack that does a lot of damage; whereas most damage-focused builds increase damage by increasing the number of attacks. so Bless is actually a better spell than Haste as a buff for damage-dealers that aren't rogues

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