Current Events > BattleBots: World Championship Tournament Final discussion topic *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

The end is near! The final eight are set, and tonight, we will crown a brand new BattleBots World Champion! Which one will stand alone at the end and take home the coveted Giant Nut?

https://battlebots.com/bracket/

You can see the full bracket by clicking the link above, but be aware that the online bracket includes the results from the previous round's matches, so don't click it if you're not fully caught up. And as a reminder: Please put any discussion of match results under spoiler tags until 24 hours after the episode airs out of consideration for people who can't watch the episode live, especially if you decide to watch the episode early on Discovery+ before it airs on TV.

Showtime is about an hour away.

Auuugh my girlfriend doesn't get home from out of state until Saturday. I've had to wait all week to watch the previous episode, and now I have to wait two more days for this one on top of that. It's honestly torture.

Nice, thanks for the heads up.

Im always a damn goldfish.

Builders have been hyping up controversy(s) about this final that makes Whiplash/Cobalt look like nothing. I'm all in.

NightRender posted...

Builders have been hyping up controversy(s) about this final that makes Whiplash/Cobalt look like nothing. I'm all in.

I've heard, and I'm both intrigued and worried to find out what it is. Controversy gets people talking, but too much controversy can make people lose faith in the show and the people in charge, which could end up doing more harm than good. I'll never forget how the original UK Robot Wars had major controversies in both the series 6 finals (Tornado's anti-Razer cage) and the series 7 finals (questionable decisions by the producers that felt like they really didn't want Storm2 to win) and then the show was cancelled shortly after that second one.

Won't be able to watch until Saturday but fuck Hydra.

IT'S ROBOT FIGHTIN' TIME! The quarterfinals begin now with Sawblaze vs. Riptide!

nice driving

good start

Jamison Go is such a great driver. Let's go SawBlaze!

Oh and #FuckHydra

The battle of the flippers goes... very anticlimactically. And with Blip going out, my bracket is officially dead and torn to pieces. Guess I'm cheering for Tantrum and Minotaur now. Just... literally anyone but Hydra, for the love of god.

I missed the flippers.

Caught that one, some nice driving and a clean finish.

Was a little disappointing not seeing one of the main weapons.

I can't stand hydra. I'm rooting for witch doctor again.

Oh no guys.

Tag. Gonna watch tape delayed in a little bit.

I agree with the decision. Also, that platform has caused more grief than whatever excitement it was supposed to bring.

PiOverlord posted...

I agree with the decision. Also, that platform has caused more grief than whatever excitement it was supposed to bring.

Agreed on both counts. I think the decision to unstick Witch Doctor and restart the fight was the best one (the next best option was a double KO, which still ends in the same judge's decision victory for Witch Doctor) and I definitely think the Upper Deck needs to go next season because it's done far more harm than good.

Posting withput looking because I'm only through tpurney round 1, but tag to comment on how it plays out once I've finished probably tomorrow

So much for Jamison Go's driving. Sawblaze goes out in a blaze of glory.

bah

so when does the next season start?

That wasn't much of a fight

I personally felt Hydra should have won, but Tantrum put up a better fight than I expected and really took it home in the end. Always liked the unique design of it so I'm glad with the win. Poor WD, though. 2 finales, and 2 losses where they kinda just had a deflated ending.

Whoops. Accidentally posted without spoiler tags lol. That was close, my bad.

Sooo bummed for Witch Doctor. I actually was rooting for Sawblaze over them since I'd like to see Saw get the giant nut, but alas. At that point I really wanted to see the Galatelys(sp?) finally win a championship now that it was their second time in the finals. Nothing against Tantrum, I have mad respect for them too and I'm happy to see them get a championship.

Hydra fight went the way it was supposed to. Same thing I was saying last week. Hydra can flip people sure, but flips =/= damage. Almost every bot is drop tested, so unless you get a ring-out, flips just aren't as amazing as they look. Hydra wasn't aggressive, it did virtually no damage. There's no universe where it wins that fight IMO.

I'm happy that Tantrum won in the end to complete its journey from jobber to champion but overall, I sort of feel deflated myself. We had not one but two controversial moments in this finale that really shaped how the series ended, and I don't like having situations like this where I see people saying that neither of the finalists even deserve to be there. Next season, they really need to try and get things under control. Clearer rules, more transparency (which admittedly they did better with this year by showing scorecards for some close fights), less things that take the results of a fight out of the driver's hands, and for fuck's sake, remove the upper deck.

https://i.imgur.com/dL2GXsY.gif

I hope they improve on things for next time (and obviously I hope there's actually a next time at all) but overall, I still enjoyed this season a lot.

i stumbled on it - hadn't watched in a good 10 yrs.

this was good spectacle, well produced. you guys tell me if i am wrong, but it doesn't seem scripted - it seems to be (or at least strives to be) actual competition, anytime you have actual competition, you are going to end up with some controversial results.

i just loved it. 10.10 would watch again

toreysback posted...

i stumbled on it - hadn't watched in a good 10 yrs.

this was good spectacle, well produced. you guys tell me if i am wrong, but it doesn't seem scripted - it seems to be (or at least strives to be) actual competition, anytime you have actual competition, you are going to end up with some controversial results.

i just loved it. 10.10 would watch again

It's legit. It's a good show, and you just gotta roll with the strange decisions from time to time.

well, it was easy for me as a noob because i had no attachments to any team or bot.

in a new season, i already would go in liking some and disliking some.

toreysback posted...

this was good spectacle, well produced. you guys tell me if i am wrong, but it doesn't seem scripted - it seems to be (or at least strives to be) actual competition, anytime you have actual competition, you are going to end up with some controversial results.

The fights are definitely not scripted. Sometimes the interviews and "characters" are played up for TV (like Ray Billings of Tombstone being a smug villain in the earlier seasons and Jake Ewert of Hydra being the smug villain nowadays) but the action in the BattleBots is totally legit. I could go with fewer controversies and questionable decisions, but I've never once felt like they were actively trying to swing a certain fight a certain way.

I can't believe people in the comments are angry at Witch Doctor.

Like, in no fucking universe does Minotaur circling around with literally a single wheel, count as a controlled movement. They should've been counted out immediately. Even beyond that, people annoyed at the unstick request seem to not realize an un-sticking like that wouldn't have to take place if Minotaur was functional and healthy. Hearing people boo them was the pettiest bullshit I've seen in the sport in years.

Been about 24 hours (I don't understand time zones). Here are some takes on the Witch Doctor / Minotaur fight scrounged up from the subreddit.

From Team Witch Doctor:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/4/2/AAGiTSAADHbK.jpg

From Team Minotaur:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/4/3/AAGiTSAADHbL.png

And an account from the viewpoint of an audience member that is uncomfortable even reading. CW: language, sexism.

https://www.reddit.com/r/battlebots/comments/tysw4a/episode_14_finals_post_episode_discussion/i3uhh86/

Yeah, that fight and the Tantrum/Hydra fight are going to be talked about a lot going into next season, and not for good reasons. Rule changes, rule clarifications, adjustments to the judge's scoring system, adjustments to the arena itself, more transparency on why certain decisions were made... there's a lot of problems that still need to be ironed out, and I really hope they hit at least most of those.

Yeeeegh that is fucked up that the audience was getting that aggressive.
I guess it makes a little more sense that people didn't realize Minotaur lost a wheel. But still. I read WD's post on social media, and what a frigging debacle from the production team.

The Hydra thing is annoying me though because people are turning it into a crusade against spinners, strawmanning this idea that people want to get rid of flipbots.
Like, the issue isn't with flipping, it's with Hydra's playstyle. They camp in the middle and do nothing. If youre a flipper, ol you need to stay on the offensive and go for a ringout. Look at Blip. They're a flipper and they had massive success all season. Hydra is more than capable of doing that, but they decided to play like shmucks this season and just rotate in place, probably cuz of their drive train.

One last time for this season,
Fuck Hydra.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


There was no reason for them to. Getting stuck doesn't count as being incapacitated for a count-out. The rules explicitly state that you can request an unstick when pinned in a non-moveable part of the box, which is what happened to them.

Ive seen bots slammed up against the edge of the area and unable to move counted out before.

I thought the unstick rule was for two bots lodged together.

One of the refs posted his take on the fight. It's a little word vomitty, but I've bolded the portion about the unstick and the count-out.

To the BattleBots community, I want to address a couple of points that pertain to last night's finals. First, I can assure you that the producers have never asked the refs (or anyone that I know of) to manipulate the fights in anyway. As refs, our goal is always to be as consistent as possible and follow the rules. Of course, we are not perfect and the referees themselves don't always agree. Some of what we do is subjective but we believe that we follow the rules to the best of our abilities. We understand that being a referee is not easy and that we need to be able to take criticism. We are completely open to that, are always listening and learning. But no, the fights are not manipulated by the referees in anyway. The most challenging part of BattleBots is dealing with controlled movement. As I read through many of the social media post, I see lots of different opinions/viewpoints on who won last nights fight between Minotaur and Witch Doctor. I (ref John) believe Minotaur should've been counted out. Obviously, the other ref did not. Looking back at the fight, I think Dave (the other referee) made the right call to let it go. I was also the one that called the time out to unstick. Unfortunately, the numerous and sticks that have happened both in this season and many of the seasons past have never been shown on TV and have always been edited out. So I don't blame fans one bit for feeling like the rules have been manipulated because they had never seen that before. But there have been many times we've called timeouts to unstick. And let's remember, the rule state that the unstick timeouts can be called in specific situations and not in others. So I believe we've been consistent with that but from a fan standpoint it may not look that way. And that is totally fair criticism. During the Minotaur v. Witch Doctor fight, an edit was made to shorten the time (I guess for TV) that it looked like the timeout was called immediately. It was not called immediately however, I probably could've given it another two or three seconds. Always learning lessons. If you read the rules you will clearly see that certain places in the arena allow for a referee to call a time out and to unstick. There are also times when the BattleBots officials feel that it is not safe to unstick and therefore send it to the judges. Sometimes this makes television and sometimes it doesn't. But in no way does it change the outcome of any of the fights. Maybe you agree with the decisions of the referees or maybe you don't. Certainly we welcome any and all feedback. We have thick skin and we've been doing this for a long time.

As for the judging, we have three judges for a reason. Sometimes they see things differently than me and other times they do not. But I do see a lot of split decisions and I never feel that judges show favoritism. They seem to have their system and they follow it. During breaks, I've asked them why they made a decision and they've always had good feedback to support what they believe. Personally, I would love to see and hear from the judges after each fight. That would certainly help them explain why they scored a fight in a particular fashion. I've gotten to know all the judges over the years and I know them to be dedicated and unbiased. I don't believe they would ever do anything to intentionally stack the deck against any particular team. Things happen very fast in the Box, and while they have a monitor for viewing, their vantage point is clearly from one side of the arena. They are also sitting down and are closer to the arena floor where as the referees are standing up and have a better vantage point. Referees can also move around. It does get challenging for referees when we have large number of teammates and a very limited amount of space for viewing. We try to stay out of their way while also maintaining eye contact. Not always an easy task but nonetheless part of the job. As for the judges, I don't believe they've manipulated the outcome of any fight nor have have I seen anyone else for that matter. The judges do disagree with each other but mostly I hear them talk about wanting to get it right and how important that is. All three of them are former competitors and they personally know what it's like to win and to lose.

BattleBots is so fortunate to have the best teams in the world and they all want to win. They put their heart, soul, and a lot of time and money into the sport. Every bit of passion shows and they are great at what they do. I love watching them get excited and its important for them to feel comfortable letting me know their feelings in the heat of the moment or at any time for that matter. I don't fault them in anyway for feeling frustrated when they feel like something has been taken away from them. But I can assure everyone, I have seen nothing that would indicate anything nefarious.

Our fans are equally as passionate as our teams and I absolutely love when they engage in the sport. You can agree or disagree on just about any aspect of reffing, judging and the rules. Its great to see and hear from our passionate fans. I always welcome that. We also listen to what many of you say and take that into consideration. This season is no exception. The rules have evolved since day one and we will continue to refine them. We try to be as proactive as possible and anticipate any potential challenges that may arise. Sometimes we get the rules right and sometimes we dont. But we always do our best to make them fair and reasonable. The referees also started a new tradition of trying to get around and talk with each team prior to the beginning of filming. The purpose of this is to clarify any rules and or listen to any challenges the teams might have. Because of this, we were able to adjust some of the rules and clarify things that some of the teams really were frustrated with. We went to bat for the teams because we also felt that the rule wasn't written very well. As the sport evolves so will the rules. There will be times when things work and there will be times when things don't. But I can assure you that when they don't, they will always be looked at and we will make every effort to fix them.

But let me be clear, no fight in any way has ever been manipulated by the refs nor do I believe any fight has ever been manipulated by a judge. Nothing is fixed. The producers do not dictate the outcome of any fight. We strive to be perfect but know we are not. BattleBots can and should do a better job of explaining the rules during the show (i.e. stuck under the rail of the deck verses stuck leaning on the deck). I know this would help the fans a lot. Rules need to be cleaned up and clarified (i.e. controlled movement). All of these things are already in progress.

I believe that BattleBots is so truly loved and cared for by the fans that it's only right they have a voice and express both their pleasures and displeasures with the show. Please know, you are loudly heard and we know you care.

If they're non-functional, then they get counted out for being dead, not from being stuck.

One of the BattleBots refs posted on Facebook that unsticks happen way more often than you think, they just don't always make it to television because obviously it's not very exciting. He also pointed out that some period of time passed before they called a timeout to unstick Witch Doctor. Both bots were hobbling around in there before they made the call.

Edit: Shit, I got ninja'd lol.

Witch Doctor vs Minotaur should've been a double count-out or maybe a Witch Doctor count-out , but not an unstick. And Minotaur was denied an opportunity to gyro/crab a hit in before that occurred. Stoppages to unstick really shouldn't even be thing. I liked Complete Control vs Chiabot but the rules need to be changed. If one bot has compromised mobility and the other has no mobility, an unstick does not accomplish anything but force an immediate count-out for the compromised bot. Even with Minotaur's gyro control, I expected that Minotaur count-out as much Witch Doctor's team. When that didn't happen, Witch Doctor hurt itself by not being more aggressive. Why is a bot like Wrecks allowed to crab walk but robots can't have backup movement options with gyro abilities or self-righters? If the damaged bot's weapon is still a threat, even with limited movement, do we need to start forcing KOs and focus more on pit work?

Sawblaze vs Riptide: No real surprises here but I still like what Riptide accomplished.

Blip vs Hydra: Blip getting under Hydra was always a long shot. Lesson for Blip is that they need a switchable electromagnet to prevent that from happening again. Upper deck needs to go or needs a ramp. I'd rather have the hellraisers constantly active than have the upper deck. Blip also needs a Subzero-style self-righting system. I'd rather it rock itself right than flop around hoping for a good landing.

Tantrum vs Cobalt: I like Cobalt but it needs a feeder-style front wedge. It does serious damage to anything that lands on it but it relies too much on pop-ups.

Tantrum vs Hydra was the right call. Hydra definitely won control with all those flips, but Tantrum did functional damage to Hydra's flipper. Aggression was a coin flip with an edge for Hydra. But again, the damage category is damage. Hydra did none. Even if Tantrum is smoking, I'd still consider that cosmetic until the performance decline that did not happen. Recent fires have shown that critical components have much better separation now and fire isn't always a problem anymore.

Sawblaze vs Witch Doctor: Single axel exposed wheels are really hard to justify going forward for any bot. If I recall correctly, Witch Doctor can apparently drive on no tires.

Tantrum vs Witch Doctor: This was fantastic. Same as with Minotaur, Witch Doctor had full control and a working weapon. The outward-facing gash on Witch Doctor's underside is difficult to see but looked huge. No wonder it was high-centered. I'd like to see Tantrum's weapon go a bit further down that track next season because it always looks a few inches shy. Still upset that Glitch couldn't get working for the tournament.

Starks posted...

Even with Minotaur's gyro control, I expected that Minotaur count-out as much Witch Doctor's team. When that didn't happen, Witch Doctor hurt itself by not being more aggressive.

It's been explained a billion times all over social media, but the reason they stopped attacking was because their ref kept telling them to expect Minotaur to be counted out at any moment. Minotaur's ref was planning to start a countdown but Team Riobotz was aggressively telling him not to and insisting he had control.
As per the rules, a count-out will not take place if a bot is actively engaging their opponent, and so Witch Doctor held off on attacking, believing that a countdown was going to take place any moment, for a moment straight, due to what their ref was telling them. See what happened to Rotator in the Round of 16 for why to hold off on attacking a compromised opponent. Rotator had the match in the bag, but insisted on attacking, which prevented a count-out, and the tide of battle turned against them and they lost.

Starks posted...

Witch Doctor vs Minotaur should've been a double count-out or maybe a Witch Doctor count-out , but not an unstick. And Minotaur was denied an opportunity to gyro/crab a hit in before that occurred.

Again, the rules explicitly state that bots can request an unstick when stuck in part of the battle box which isn't a moving hazard. Numerous un-sticks have taken place throughout the entire season, they were just edited out for television.

Imagine if NFL broadcasts were edited for time and the first time anyone ever saw a ref reviewing a play was in the Superbowl. Sure it's in the rulebook, but why would a casual viewer read that.

I feel like we're experiencing that 2 episodes in a row.

They play sooo much useless shit to pad out the show, then edit and cut fights.

seriously, what the fuck are they doing?

I feel like your options on Minotaur/WD were double KO that WD would win or unstick. With that in mind, the unstick was advantageous to Minotaur.

Everything after the unstick was played well by WD given that Minotaur really should have been counted out and WD clearly believed they should be.

I was initially surprised with the Tantrum/Hydra call, but thinking on it more, I largely agree with the judges. Tantrum did win damage, so it ultimately did come down to control/aggression, an Hydra's fighting style will always make it hard for them to win aggression. If you don't want to lose a judges decision, don't let it go to the judges.

Congrats to Tantrum on the win, that first hit they landed on WD was a thing of beauty and basically decided the whole match.

I already mentioned this over on the BattleBots subreddit regarding Tantrum/Hydra, but I figure I should talk about it here too.

With how many flips Hydra landed compared to how few hits Tantrum landed, as well as how little damage Tantrum actually did to Hydra (that still won it the fight because a little bit of visual damage is more than none at all), it felt to me like Hydra dominated the fight just based on the eye test. But with the current judge's criteria, Tantrum clearly won damage and aggression and therefore won the fight. The eye test and the judge's scorecards don't match up, and I think that's a problem that needs to be addressed for next season.

I think the judge's scoring criteria needs to be altered to also account for the number of successful attacks landed and not just the severity of the damage caused. Either split the damage category into two clear parts of "attacks landed" and "significant attacks landed" (like what MMA does with strikes and significant strikes) or lump the number of attacks landed in as part of aggression. This would not only make the scoring system better reflect the eye test, but it would also help level the playing field when it comes to control bots (axes, crushers, grabbers, flippers, etc,) and their inherent disadvantage in the sport compared to spinners.

I didnt know battlebots was still a thing