Current Events > The only thing worse than the people who thought Holdo was feminist pandering

(+) Yeah! (+)

...are all the critics who reflexively defended her characterization by pointing out that she was a new, refreshing and commanding leader that somehow Star Wars desperately needed.

No.

Holdo wasn't a feminist propaganda icon
Holdo wasn't a brilliantly subversive take on military command

Holdo was depicted as a completely unecessarily secretive asshole who, if anything, came across as quite possibly a literal traitor/saboteur at worst, and an inexplicably terrible communicator at best.

So anyway that's TLJ

Facts.

Holdo was fucking trash, like the rest of the movie.

Never heard anyone say that as a defense to her character.

The complainers are way, way worse though.

Problem with Holdo is she was an asshole and a bad leader

Purple hair or not

Wow can't believe it's been 15 years since this movie came out and we're still talking about it

I get what theme RJ was going for w/ the Poe Holdo story, but it was executed horribly. I wonder if they could have made it better if they used Leia or Admiral Ackbar in that role instead.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

I get what theme RJ was going for w/ the Poe Holdo story, but it was executed horribly. I wonder if they could have made it better if they used Leia or Admiral Ackbar in that role instead.

Leia was too busy learning how to force push herself in 0 Gs after almost dying.

DarkRoast posted...

Holdo was depicted as a completely unecessarily secretive asshole who, if anything, came across as quite possibly a literal traitor/saboteur at worst, and an inexplicably terrible communicator at best.

She wasn't an asshole, but yeah her character is boring as fuck. Like most of the ST.

As a neutral. Both sides deserved what they got.

Fans blindly giving money deserve the shit they got. And the producers taking the money deserve the shit they got.

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

"The only thing worse than people who [hold my position] are the people who [hold the opposite position]."

Holdo was there to be an authority for Poe to rebel against and learn to not be so headstrong (because Poe/Leia was gonna be saved for Ep 9 I'd assume) and she did a good job at that.

Poe started the movie by insisting on continuing a losing battle to get a minor victory, and the rebel escaped eplan was to sacrifice their biggest weapon to get the people away safely, and he totally would've opposed that at the beginning of the movie.

Holdo was a contrived character made up to move Poe's character arc along, and like, she was fine for that. I honestly don't really get the hate, she's just a plot device to move the movie along.

If she didn't have Pink hair I feel like she'd be as forgettable as she was intended to be.

I still don't understand how people missed the implication that there was a spy on board the ship.

I honestly think Holdo wasn't supposed to come across like she did in the film, but I can only go by what was shown on screen.

And what we saw on screen was:

A military commander who seemingly came out of nowhere but was expected to be the final say in all decisions.

Someone who is immediately hostile to some of the most important members of the rapidly-dwindling resistance.

Someone whose plan is getting literally everyone around her killed right before her crew's eyes.

And we're supposed to think Poe and Co were the bad guys for questioning her intentions and authority?

It's nuts to me. If I put myself on that ship, I don't see any situation where I wouldn't mutiny. Given how deliberately secretive she is around even the highest-level military personnel on the ship, the only rational assumption is that she's getting everyone killed by abusing her military rank.

Alucard188 posted...

Leia was too busy learning how to force push herself in 0 Gs after almost dying.

Force pull.

But besides that, why is Holdo (a military commander) dressed like she's going to an aqua opera on Coruscant?

I honestly would have respected Holdo a lot more as a character if she really were a double agent who was sabotaging the Resistance, rather than just being a smug idiot who nearly got everyone killed

What's worse, Poe's objection to her plan were perfectly valid and yet he's the one treated as a hot-headed moron!

COVxy posted...

I still don't understand how people missed the implication that there was a spy on board the ship.

Cool, who was it?

Holdo and DJ both existed as plot devices. They had no actual character.

DarkRoast posted...

Cool, who was it?

There didn't need to be one, only a belief that there was one, because they were being followed through hyperspace.

HylianFox posted...

I honestly would have respected Holdo a lot more as a character if she really were a double agent who was sabotaging the Resistance, rather than just being a smug idiot who nearly got everyone killed

What's worse, Poe's objection to her plan were perfectly valid and yet he's the one treated as a hot-headed moron!

See, here's the deal -

Poe was a brash idiot, sure. He did deserve to be put in his place. But he was still among the highest-level assets Holdo had. Even with him disobeying orders, nobody (including Holdo herself) questions his loyalty to the cause.

Deliberately (and smugly, no less) witholding information from him in such a situation was far more likely to invoke mutiny and disaster than simply telling him what's going on.

COVxy posted...

There didn't need to be one, only a belief that there was one, because they were being followed through hyperspace.

TLDR - She was paranoid and wrong, and her unwillingness to trust and consult with her best military assets resulted in mutiny. Ironically, it was her unwillingness to discuss this with them that ultimately resulted in the exact outcome she was trying to avoid.

Admittedly the Holdo Maneuver was a great bit of cinema but it really doesn't redeem her.
I was like "Sacrificing yourself for the others is really the least you could do after your colossal fuck-up"

DarkRoast posted...

TLDR - She was paranoid and wrong, and her unwillingness to trust and consult with her best military assets resulted in mutiny. Ironically, it was her unwillingness to discuss this with them that ultimately resulted in the exact outcome she was trying to avoid.

She was right to be paranoid, given the events and universe. You can do the right thing and have the wrong outcome, you know.

DarkRoast posted...

See, here's the deal -

Poe was a brash idiot, sure. He did deserve to be put in his place. But he was still among the highest-level assets Holdo had. Even with him disobeying orders, nobody (including Holdo herself) questions his loyalty to the cause.

Deliberately (and smugly, no less) witholding information from him in such a situation was far more likely to invoke mutiny and disaster than simply telling him what's going on.

Well yeah. "Feminist" or not she was an obnoxious, unlikable character who nearly caused a mutiny.

As I said I was annoyed that she wasn't actually a spy. She was just a terrible leader...

COVxy posted...

She was right to be paranoid, given the events and universe. You can do the right thing and have the wrong outcome, you know.

Was it ever established that the Resistance had a huge information leak problem and a lot of Imperial spies?

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Was it ever established that the Resistance had a huge information leak problem and a lot of Imperial spies?

To be honest, from the standpoint of the crew, the only person acting like an Imperial spy was Holdo herself.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Was it ever established that the Resistance had a huge information leak problem and a lot of Imperial spies?

There was a big cinematic moment, where they get followed through a jump, and the ship leaders are like "this shouldn't be possible, unless..." *stare at each other*

Like, they never explicitly said "there's a spy on board!!!!!", but it is heavily implied (which apparently isn't enough for your average viewer).

The whole spy thing kinda shows how weak the alliance became yeah? To nearly fall apart that easily based on speculation. Even the portrayal of hopelessness shit the bed. Unlike the end of Empire. You just knew the rebels were gonna make a comeback not just because they are supposed to.

All i know is that I came away from the movie completely confused how apparently most people just didn't understand the whole spy thing. I thought it was as clear as day.

COVxy posted...

She was right to be paranoid, given the events and universe. You can do the right thing and have the wrong outcome, you know.

To be frank, the best example of her poor leadership skills was to take someone like Poe and smugly avoid telling him anything while he's clearly worried about everything going on. If she didn't expect him to mutiny with that kind of attitude, she's a moron.

That's kind of like a parent handing a child a lit Tiki Torch and then being genuinely surprised when they accidentally burn the house down.

As a leader/parent, you have a responsibility to manage your subordinates/children in a way that respects what they can or can't handle.

COVxy posted...

There was a big cinematic moment, where they get followed through a jump, and the ship leaders are like "this shouldn't be possible, unless..." *stare at each other*

Like, they never explicitly said "there's a spy on board!!!!!", but it is heavily implied (which apparently isn't enough for your average viewer).

Meh I assumed it was just new technology, since the Empire/First Order has an established history of surprising the Resistance w/ new tech.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Meh I assumed it was just new technology, since the Empire/First Order has an established history of surprising the Resistance w/ new tech.

And that's probably why you didn't understand Holdo's behavior and just thought she was being irrational. It should have cued you to think "maybe my assumptions are different than the character's assumptions", though.

Cobra1010 posted...

As a neutral. Both sides deserved what they got.

Fans blindly giving money deserve the shit they got. And the producers taking the money deserve the shit they got.

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

Too fatalistic. They contributed to what they got. No one deserves it. An H. Sapien is capable of an epiphany and as history shows, mass epiphany.

Less doom and gloom here please.

COVxy posted...

And that's probably why you didn't understand Holdo's behavior and just thought she was being irrational. It should have cued you to think "maybe my assumptions are different than the character's assumptions", though.

I knew why she wasn't telling Poe her plan, still made her seem like a moron. Remind me, was it a spy or new technology that allowed the First Order to track them through hyperspace?

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

I knew why she wasn't telling Poe her plan, still made her seem like a moron. Remind me, was it a spy or new technology that allowed the First Order to track them through hyperspace?

Is it more reasonable to assume a technology that was previously deemed impossible, or that there was a spy?

I think people are too used to narratives kind of just, working out? I guess. Like, people believe things for good reasons (i.e. the optimal thing for them to believe, given what they've observed) that turn out to be wrong all the time.

Off world
Still 1st down

Part of the issue is that the Holdo situation was another case in which Rian Johnson was subverting the way Star Wars usually goes; we're used to people who just joined the rebellion yesterday like Luke being in the middle of the big planning meetings and the idea that our perspective characters despite being lower rank wouldn't be privy to all the information of the military campaign is realistic but surprising to the viewers. I believe we were supposed to go "Oh yeah, why should they share sensitive information with lower ranked officers in a crisis situation? That would be weird for military discipline" but she was woman with colored hair and some people were already mad about women in this trilogy sooooo...

COVxy posted...

Is it more reasonable to assume a technology that was previously deemed impossible, or that there was a spy?

I think people are too used to narratives kind of just, working out? I guess. Like, people believe things for good reasons (i.e. the optimal thing for them the believe, given what they've observed) that turn out to be wrong all the time.

Starkiller Base says new technology is the most likely scenario.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Starkiller Base says new technology is the most likely scenario.

Are you just deliberately avoiding engaging in the actual discussion here?

Why on earth (Coruscant) is Holdo being held to task for not freely divulging info to Poe? She was the commander, he was ere pilot that refused to follow orders and routinely ignored chain of command. Just because the story followed him as a man character doesn't make him a main character from within the rebellion. Poe had already demonstrated he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about earlier in the movie when he ignored orders and caused the rebellion to have a major setback over his minor personal victory, so because he screeches at the new girl we're supposed to take his side? Preposterous.

A_Good_Boy posted...

Why on earth (Coruscant) is Holdo being held to task for not freely divulging info to Poe? She was the commander, he was ere pilot that refused to follow orders and routinely ignored chain of command. Just because the story followed him as a man character doesn't make him a main character from within the rebellion. Poe had already demonstrated he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about earlier in the movie when he ignored orders and caused the rebellion to have a major setback over his minor personal victory, so because he screeches at the new girl we're supposed to take his side? Preposterous.

Scenario: You're in a battle. You and your regimen are watching your entire army around you getting mowed down while your commander refuses to talk about it and tells you to keep marching forward.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

I get what theme RJ was going for w/ the Poe Holdo story, but it was executed horribly. I wonder if they could have made it better if they used Leia or Admiral Ackbar in that role instead.

I'm not sure how people would have reacted to admiral akbar in a purple wig.)

DarkRoast posted...

Scenario: You're in a battle. You and your regimen are watching your entire army around you getting mowed down while your commander refuses to talk about it and tells you to keep marching forward.

Pretty sure that's what war is like. Guys who pilot one space ship don't get personal conferences with Admirals. We're just used to our perspective characters being cool guys who get to know all the things and get preferential treatment. It was part of the subversion Rian Johnson was going for I expect that perspective characters aren't special; the Republic doesn't depend on one guy who plays by his own rules to win and said guy doesn't always need to be specially kept up to speed.

I feel like that approach is definitely subversive for an action film; tbh I don't even entirely agree. I like our heroes being cool and larger than life, such as Rey and Luke, who both get to do cool Jedi stuff with very little training.

DarkRoast posted...

Scenario: You're in a battle. You and your regimen are watching your entire army around you getting mowed down while your commander refuses to talk about it and tells you to keep marching forward.

I think your scenario is a bit flawed. Poe already knew that the 1st Order was reacting to troop movements in ways that they shouldn't have, considering the whole being followed through hyperspace thing. Pretty sure he was even told that there might be a spy, so it's pretty weird that he's even expecting Holdo to just blab out information over open comms anyways.

COVxy posted...

There was a big cinematic moment, where they get followed through a jump, and the ship leaders are like "this shouldn't be possible, unless..." *stare at each other*

Like, they never explicitly said "there's a spy on board!!!!!", but it is heavily implied (which apparently isn't enough for your average viewer).

But they didn't get tracked because of a spy though did they? I thought they got tracked because Snoke's ship had the tech to track them that wasn't widely known about.

DarkRoast posted...

Scenario: You're in a battle. You and your regimen are watching your entire army around you getting mowed down while your commander refuses to talk about it and tells you to keep marching forward.

Scenario: You're a hot-shot fighter pilot who'd rather be in the skies than doing something more productive, but for some reason or another everyone looks to you as a leader. But you don't know how to lead, you want to jump into a crazy impulsive decision that could maybe get everyone killed. You care more about getting a point even at the risk of your fellow soldiers, and the only real chance for your allies to get away is by sacrificing the biggest gun you have. Obviously you aren't going to support it and push for a crazy stupid decision that can nearly kill everyone.

Because Poe is directly responsible for the stupid thing that nearly gets everyone killed because he was too impulsive and needed to jump into action.

It would be better if Ep 9 actually took... anything from Ep 8, but there was a clear arc there and Holdo did exactly what her character's job was.

Mibahlzitch posted...

Pretty sure that's what war is like. Guys who pilot one space ship don't get personal conferences with Admirals. We're just used to our perspective characters being cool guys who get to know all the things and get preferential treatment. It was part of the subversion Rian Johnson was going for I expect that perspective characters aren't special; the Republic doesn't depend on one guy who plays by his own rules to win and said guy doesn't always need to be specially kept up to speed.

I feel like that approach is definitely subversive for an action film; tbh I don't even entirely agree. I like our heroes being cool and larger than life, such as Rey and Luke, who both get to do cool Jedi stuff with very little training.

Also, he did do the cool guy thing earlier in the film and decided to be I subordinate and do what he thought was the right move. Only that was actually the wrong move because he ruined the overall strategy because he was only focused on himself and what he could see and do. Now we're expected to take his side when the Admiral doesn't want to just blab her heart out when there's a possible spy in the mix? Poe knew that and still wanted a transparent rebellion despite knowing how bad that already was.

mybbqrules posted...

But they didn't get tracked because of a spy though did they? I thought they got tracked because Snoke's ship had the tech to track them that wasn't widely known about.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/7/0/AAZt-XAADfhy.jpg

Her name was stupid even for Star Wars.

Kept sounding like HOLDOR.