Board 8 > Fighting the gym leaders out of order in Gen I

(+) Yeah! (+)

Something I was thinking about recently. Assuming no glitches are performed, Brock MUST be the first leader that the player faces because the player cannot proceed past Pewter City until he is defeated, and Misty must be second because the player needs to be able to use Cut to get to any other gyms past hers. But after that it kind of muddles a bit and I'm wondering what the wackiest order could be? If you trade for a Pokemon with Cut, is there anything preventing the player from just going east of Cerulean after beating Misty and heading straight for Rock Tunnel to get to the central-Kanto towns? Yes you could head to Vermillion first to get Flash but it's not absolutely necessary (literally on my first playthrough as a dumb kid I muscled through Rock Tunnel in the dark). Even if you did head to Vermillion to get Flash, I don't think there's any reason you NEED to beat Surge at this point, because all his badge does is let you use Fly, right? Is there anything else locked until post-Surge? If not, I think he can be as late as the 7th leader you face. Erika/Koga/Sabrina can be challenged in any order, and I believe Blaine only requires Koga being beaten to use Surf. Giovanni requires all 7 prior badges so he HAS to be last, so unless I'm overlooking something, I think the wackiest order you could beat these guys and gals in is something like:

Brock -> Misty -> Koga -> Blaine -> Sabrina -> Erika -> Surge -> Giovanni

That's correct.

I think you're right. Even without trading, you can get HM01 Cut without and leave again without beating Surge, so you just need to beat the Rock Tunnel without using Flash.

i don't think you can beat koga before erica - doesn't his gym require strength or something to access?

or is strength legitimately not needed til victory road?

SeabassDebeste posted...

i don't think you can beat koga before erica - doesn't his gym require strength or something to access?

or is strength legitimately not needed til victory road?

No, you don't need Strength for Koga, but it DID make me wonder if I overlooked needing Strength to obtain the actual Surf HM... A quick look says no but I might be wrong about that.

Underleveled posted...

No, you don't need Strength for Koga, but it DID make me wonder if I overlooked needing Strength to obtain the actual Surf HM... A quick look says no but I might be wrong about that.

Your quick look was right. Gen 1 only needs Strength for the Rare Candy in the Safari Zone Warden's house, for Seafoam Islands (Which is optional, since you can just surf south from Pallet to reach Cinnabar, backtracking with Cut), and for Victory Road

Pokemon Stadium 2 lets you transfer items between Gen 1 games, so if you transfer a Fresh Water to a new file you can get to Saffron City very early (still have to do Routes 24 and 25 but can skip Misty). You still need Cut for Erika's gym, but I think you can make Blaine the 3rd gym leader that way.

OrangeCrush980 posted...

Pokemon Stadium 2 lets you transfer items between Gen 1 games, so if you transfer a Fresh Water to a new file you can get to Saffron City very early (still have to do Routes 24 and 25 but can skip Misty). You still need Cut for Erika's gym, but I think you can make Blaine the 3rd gym leader that way.

Does is let you transfer between games? For some reason I was under the impression that you were only able to send items back to the save file they originated on, specifically to prevent stuff like this.

Underleveled posted...

Does is let you transfer between games? For some reason I was under the impression that you were only able to send items back to the save file they originated on, specifically to prevent stuff like this.

That's how it worked in the first Pokemon Stadium, but in 2 all RBY games share an item storage box

Yes, you can beat gyms 3-7 in any order with the exception that Koga must be done before Blaine. Personally I always beat Sabrina before Koga and was surprised the intended order was Koga first.

Gens 2 and 3 have alternate orders too, but not as much as Gen 1.

charmander6000 posted...

Gens 2 and 3 have alternate orders too, but not as much as Gen 1.

I know in Gen 2 you can do Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce in any order, but I think that's it. You have to beat Falkner before heading south of Violet City similar to Brock, Bugsy to use Cut to get through Ilex Forest, Whitney to get the pail to get past Sudowoodo, and Morty to use Surf, but after Morty you can either go west of Ecruteak to face Chuck and Jasmine, or east to face Pryce. All three must be defeated before you can go to Blackthorn to face Clair though.

charmander6000 posted...

Personally I always beat Sabrina before Koga and was surprised the intended order was Koga first.

Uh wow yeah me too

In my mind Koga is 6th, you hit seafoam, then Blaine.

Ive been watching a bunch of solo Pokemon RBY challenge runs over the past week and the guy doing them very frequently switches up the order of those gyms as necessary

charmander6000 posted...

Personally I always beat Sabrina before Koga and was surprised the intended order was Koga first.

Yeah I mean you're like right there in Saffron. Maybe they expect you to get whupped by the psychic types?

charmander6000 posted...

Gens 2 and 3 have alternate orders too, but not as much as Gen 1.

Hm in Gen 3 I can only think of Winona as a skippable gym leader

pjbasis posted...

Hm in Gen 3 I can only think of Winona as a skippable gym leader

Brawly is also skippable.

I have never in my life gone through Seafoam Islands to get from Fuchsia City to Cinnabar Island. (In fact I don't think I've ever traversed the islands any farther than necessary to reach Articuno) As a kid it shocked me to learn that this was supposedly the "intended" route to reach Cinnabar because there's no reason to do it. Seafoam Islands are promoted as this big optional area so the entire route is also optional.

bwburke94 posted...

Brawly is also skippable.

Oh yeah I guess he just gives you Flash or something

sabrina/koga is an interesting one, but it seems pretty clear that koga should come first, since he gives access to an HM.

there's also evidence that koga should come first because of the way the typing works. roughly speaking, rock < water < electric < grass < poison < psychic

that said the location of fuchsia town does seem to imply he should come after sabrina, and the original manual listed sabrina before koga for whatever reason

I dont even know what the right order is for Erika <> Sabrina
The anime certainly didnt.

Your badges makes the intended order pretty clear I think.

Ash did Sabrina before Koga so I figured that was the intended way. But the badge screen makes it clear that Koga is 5th and Sabrina is 6th.

Koga and Sabrina have very similar levels in every Gen 1 based game, so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided Koga first because Psychic types are stronger than Poison types.

SeabassDebeste posted...

roughly speaking, rock < water < electric < grass < poison < psychic

Does this mean fire was supposed to be effective against psychic? Would have actually been more balanced.

From leaks from the beta, it seems like the original order was Flying < Rock < Water < Electric < Grass < Poison < Fire < Psychic. I don't know if weaknesses were intended, or what that meant for the last few if they were.

I always did Sabrina first. Made more sense seeing as you get to Celadon where you have access to the water to get into Saffron.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Ive been watching a bunch of solo Pokemon RBY challenge runs over the past week and the guy doing them very frequently switches up the order of those gyms as necessary

I also watch these. Jrose11 specifically. I dont know if you watch him but he does things out of order all the time or just forgets about a gym(Erika).

Sorozone posted...

I also watch these. Jrose11 specifically. I dont know if you watch him but he does things out of order all the time or just forgets about a gym(Erika).

I mean I guess if you're going to legit "oh shit" forget to do a gym, Erika makes most sense. As I said in my OP, Brock, Misty and Koga are absolutely mandatory to defeat in order to progress once you hit their towns without using glitches or other unintended methods. Surge and Sabrina's gyms are prominently displayed in towns where you'll spend a lot of time in a normal playthrough. Hard to forget Blaine on Cinnabar Island, and Giovanni is always last. Erika is tucked away behind Cut at the south end of a town where everything else of importance is up north. Pretty easy to let slip your mind as you do the middle third of the game.

Sorozone posted...

I also watch these. Jrose11 specifically. I dont know if you watch him but he does things out of order all the time or just forgets about a gym(Erika).

Yeah, he's who I've been watching. I think it's pretty rare for him to go in the intended order!

The intended order can still kinda work. You arrive in Celadon, whoop Erika and the Rockets, pick up Fly, go down Cycling Road, do Fuschia, head back up to Lavender, do the Pokemon Tower and head back to Saffron. After that, you already have Fly so you can Fly back to Fuschia to go via Seafoam or to Pallet to head down.

I used to always head down Pallet, but it meant I always missed out on the EXP from the Seafoam routes, so in recent runs I've always headed through there.

RyoCaliente posted...

I used to always head down Pallet, but it meant I always missed out on the EXP from the Seafoam routes, so in recent runs I've always headed through there.

This.

Anyway, I always thought there was some weird oversight that swapped Sabrina and Koga somehow. Not a glitch, mind you, but just some kind of human error. Here's why - I always wondered why Sabrina gave you the Marsh Badge and Koga gave you the Soul Badge, when it seemed more appropriate the other way around (since psychics look into people's souls, and marshes and swamps are often associated with toxic waste... not perfect but these are better justifications that I can think of for the way they are anyway). My theory was that the BADGES are in the correct order but swapped gym leaders somehow.

RyoCaliente posted...

The intended order can still kinda work. You arrive in Celadon, whoop Erika and the Rockets, pick up Fly, go down Cycling Road, do Fuschia, head back up to Lavender, do the Pokemon Tower and head back to Saffron. After that, you already have Fly so you can Fly back to Fuschia to go via Seafoam or to Pallet to head down.

I used to always head down Pallet, but it meant I always missed out on the EXP from the Seafoam routes, so in recent runs I've always headed through there.

Problem is you can't actually get to Fuschia without beating the Pokemon Tower first.

Underleveled posted...

This.

Anyway, I always thought there was some weird oversight that swapped Sabrina and Koga somehow. Not a glitch, mind you, but just some kind of human error. Here's why - I always wondered why Sabrina gave you the Marsh Badge and Koga gave you the Soul Badge, when it seemed more appropriate the other way around (since psychics look into people's souls, and marshes and swamps are often associated with toxic waste... not perfect but these are better justifications that I can think of for the way they are anyway). My theory was that the BADGES are in the correct order but swapped gym leaders somehow.

It's a localization error. They're called the Pink and Gold badges in the Japanese version (and yes, they're named correctly there).

Mewtwo59 posted...

Problem is you can't actually get to Fuschia without beating the Pokemon Tower first.

This, but the loop does kind of make sense going the other way. Do Celadon, go through Saffron, do Pokemon Tower, head down to Fuschia, take Cycling Road north, then go do the stuff in Saffron that was locked on your first trip. Completely falls apart if you didn't get the bike, though.

Going by "90s me" logic, I wouldn't have head down to Fuschia if I knew Saffron had a gym. I would have gone up to Sliph Co and cleared out everything and then beat the gym.

Now if I didn't unlock Saffron I'd probably eventually go down to Fuschia in search for an item and clear out that city. Afterwards I'd probably would have gone to Cinnabar Island and beat Blaine since I obviously wouldn't have found the item to unlock Saffron in Fuschia and then I would have been stuck.

I always did Sabrina > Koga and then through Seafoam as I figured that was the way the game intended you to go.

I'm pretty sure my friend had one of those game guide books and that was the way it told you in that too. Granted it was probably Brady Games who are notoriously bad.

Xeybozn posted...

This, but the loop does kind of make sense going the other way. Do Celadon, go through Saffron, do Pokemon Tower, head down to Fuschia, take Cycling Road north, then go do the stuff in Saffron that was locked on your first trip. Completely falls apart if you didn't get the bike, though.

Also, while you can, you're very obviously not meant to take Cycling Road north.

Underleveled posted...

I always wondered why Sabrina gave you the Marsh Badge and Koga gave you the Soul Badge, when it seemed more appropriate the other way around (since psychics look into people's souls, and marshes and swamps are often associated with toxic waste...

whoa.

my guide said sabrina then koga so dangit that's what I always did

Mewtwo59 posted...

Problem is you can't actually get to Fuschia without beating the Pokemon Tower first.

I forgot you need the Poke Flute to get past Snorlax. I guess that means that in the badge order they do expect you to cycle up Cycling Road...

RyoCaliente posted...

I forgot you need the Poke Flute to get past Snorlax. I guess that means that in the badge order they do expect you to cycle up Cycling Road...

You can get Fly without the Poke Flute, so it seems more likely to me that you're just intended to fly back and forth.

you can also go south from lavender to reach fuschia. if the seafoam theory is true, then this might be an "intended" path

Another thing I thought about is maybe the player is suppose to initially take on Sliph Co realize it's too tough (the rival fight is a jump in difficulty) and head south to train. This has precedence in that you are suppose to enter the tower in Lavender Town right as you first enter the town, fight the rival before realizing you can't progress and return later.

What I did instead was grind until I could beat the rival.

charmander6000 posted...

Another thing I thought about is maybe the player is suppose to initially take on Sliph Co realize it's too tough (the rival fight is a jump in difficulty) and head south to train. This has precedence in that you are suppose to enter the tower in Lavender Town right as you first enter the town, fight the rival before realizing you can't progress and return later.

What I did instead was grind until I could beat the rival.

i have a really, really hard time believing this was the intent

I wonder if maybe the item placements were different early in development to force a linear path and they just never thought to update the badge order. Something like this:

Game Corner -> PokeFlute (opens Fuschia)
Fuschia -> Silph Scope (opens Pokemon Tower)
Pokemon Tower -> ... (No item now, but the Silph Co. guard still goes away)
Silph Co. -> Opens Saffron Gym

Reg posted...

You can get Fly without the Poke Flute, so it seems more likely to me that you're just intended to fly back and forth.

Sure, but then you're essentially skipping over either Cycling Road or the Seaside Road. Unless the idea is to take either to Fuschia, fly back to clear Saffron, then use the other route to get back to Fuschia to head over to Cinnabar from there.

I just don't see why someone would go through multiple routes to Fuchsia when they must have already been to Saffron and probably understood the conditions to unlocking silph co and the gym. Unless you really did miss the vending machines or something.

I always followed anime order. Also, Fuchsia was right before the water route that led to Cinnabar, so it made sense for Koga to be 6th.

In the anime, Ash actually did Sabrina fourth.

Oh dang. Well, I tried.

Had like 3 or 4 strategy guides and they all said Sabrina first I believe