Board 8 > YGO Master Duel Mafia Topic 1 - Ah yes the worst element: Rookie.

(+) Yeah! (+)

That quoted post and a thinking BCT is town post are the only 2 post I really see from Chang in a quick look.

It was a joke yes.

Actually, Chang, what WERE you hoping to find anyway by digging into that post? Surely if you found him role hinting you weren't planning to reveal it?

Chang is going to have to provide something real to avoid being in my Scummish tier

IGCD and Corrik as well

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

What is wrong about it BCT looks super scummy?

All self-preservation, lack of answering questions about his vote on Han.

Lack of really anything.

He's basically lightning rodding himself with how he's supposedly self preserving. Lack of significant other content stems from being flustered, but to me it does read like he's at least trying.

Ultimately you need to look at scum motivation vs town motivation and reaction to being "caught." Either way he is playing "scummy" on paper but it's so shallowly scummy that it isn't particularly useful to determine alignment.

All we can really determine is he doesn't want to be lynched. That isn't inherently scummy. Trying to say he would only care about being lynched as scum is a disingenuous argument.

changmas posted...

doesn't sultan like, always take joke claims too seriously?

ironically, sultan missed this post from me

PunishedBen posted...

It was a joke yes.

Actually, Chang, what WERE you hoping to find anyway by digging into that post? Surely if you found him role hinting you weren't planning to reveal it?

in truth i wasn't expecting to find much of anything. it was truly fortunate to find a decent shitpost out of otherwise nothing. It wouldn't be very smart to write a hidden message the same way in two games straight, and I'd be surprised if he tried again considering it didn't even work last time.

If I had found a message, it'd probably depend on what it said whether I would reveal it. If it said like, "I'M THE DOCTOR" I wouldn't say anything (straight up scum bait) but if it said like "I AM MILLER AGAIN" i'd probably bring it up, yeah.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Chang is going to have to provide something real to avoid being in my Scummish tier

Refer to flowchart please. But I'm comfortable hanging there for the time being while I get my bearings straight. I need a good 36-48 hours' worth of posts before I can really start operating or analyzing with any sort of confidence. For now, I like the way Lopen is thinking and I'm trending toward voting Kirby, but I'd like to see how things continue to develop over the next 24 hours before I commit to it.

##Vote: changmas


Kirby isn't Scum.

Try again.

Lopen posted...

He's basically lightning rodding himself with how he's supposedly self preserving. Lack of significant other content stems from being flustered, but to me it does read like he's at least trying.

Ultimately you need to look at scum motivation vs town motivation and reaction to being "caught." Either way he is playing "scummy" on paper but it's so shallowly scummy that it isn't particularly useful to determine alignment.

All we can really determine is he doesn't want to be lynched. That isn't inherently scummy. Trying to say he would only care about being lynched as scum is a disingenuous argument.

I can agree to disagree i see where you are coming from, I'm caught up more on how he has been responding.

His lack of much else anything but self preservation is also alarming. (I.e when I asked why he didn't like Han) he was ask about other reads and neglected to answer.

It's the avoidance that is keeping me on him for now.

I'm still looking into people.

Chang is here waiting to get more thoughts from him

Red I still never sure how to read.

Sbell has had some thoughts similar to mine not sure if that is good or bad.

Shared my thoughts on Han so far.

Kirby and Ben undecided on but will reread both.

Anyone else I should look into?

changmas posted...

I'm trending toward voting Kirby

Why?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Except for Kirby, who totally needs to admit that my reads in that game were good and that a real mvp Ben would have read up on my day 1 since I was obv killed for being right (like I often am)

Sod off. I have respect for your play in Baseball Musical Mafia, and I'll praise you and chang for burying Lopen that game and really kickstarting Town's momentum for the victory.

But for Nickelodeon Mafia, we lost that game because Ulti and Sbell turned on Lea for no damn good reason. Ben made a foolproof plan for victory, and nobody said anything against it, including Ulti and Sbell. Then Ben died and Ulti was suddenly extremely vocal about lynching Lea, which went completely against the plan Ben established.

You're delusional if you think Town not listening to you was the problem that game, and that is a hill I will die on.

Sorry, I should be wiser and stop being irrationally angry, but I'm still salty about how we lost that game, and I don't appreciate that you're trying to make it about yourself. Furthermore, I've insisted on tabling this discussion until after the game is over since it's not pertinent to this game, and instead of respecting that, you continue to provoke and mock me over it.

ANYWAY, that's a whole lot of nonsense that no one else besides Han and I care about. I'll make a separate post on what I have to say thus far about this game once I've cooled down.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Sbell has had some thoughts similar to mine not sure if that is good or bad.

You like were parroting me, verbatim, earlier. So if anything you had similar thoughts as me. Not the other way around, guy.

Likely means we're both scum.

Obellisk posted...

I mean, I want a lot of things. I suppose I will want more production from BCT to determine if he's trying to play or trying to survive.

I want his flip ultimately because I believe it's going to clear the cloud over the game a bit no matter which way he flips. Of course, if i can be made to be more comfortable with a town stance from him then perhaps a flip wouldn't be necessary.

So this is a radical idea... but do you think BCT should claim? We've had numerous instances of D1 ending in sheer chaos because the person everyone was gonna lynch throws out a claim that seems townie, and then everyone just panics because now nobody know who to vote for anymore.

I'd rather avoid repeating mistakes like that, and if BCT's claim falls apart and is clearly not townie, easy lynch. Otherwise, we discuss the lynch candidate with lots of time to spare.

Granted, I'm normally adverse to early claims. I'm just stating a possible strategy we can adopt to avoid repeating a pattern that I've noticed has occurred consistently these past few games.

changmas posted...

ooh i am very much liking Lopen again this game. particularly that last point about stressing ownership of the thought. i'm not sure i believe kirby could successfully set up real pressure on Han over a BCT lynch, but I think a general goal of trying to discredit Han's reads this game is definitely plausible for him.

Seriously? Y'all are reading too into it. I wasn't trying to discredit Han; I was just asserting that I disagreed with his stance.

Honestly, it oftentimes feels like Hell would have to freeze over before Han and I ever agree on anything (in Mafia games, at least).

Kirby321 posted...

Furthermore, I've insisted on tabling this discussion until after the game is over since it's not pertinent to this game, and instead of respecting that, you continue to provoke and mock me over it.

Sorry! If it helps, I intentionally pushed this argument to get a read on you.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

##Vote: changmas

Kirby isn't Scum.

Try again.

Faith in Han restored!

Let's stop talking about nicolodean mafia though and I'll make it up by listening to you this game.

##Vote: Chang

HanOfTheNekos posted...

##Vote: changmas

Kirby isn't Scum.

Try again.

i'm sure him agreeing with you on everything except for a inconsequential (and perhaps even fake) argument about what happened 3 games ago has no impact on this though. I have a hard time believing Kirby cares this much about whether or not you could have been "MVP" of Baseball Mafia. But it does a great job of making it seem like the two of you are at odds.

I see Sbell's point of view. I don't agree that Red pointing out Poppy playing differently is pointless, but the way Red didn't elaborate made it seems so. Not sure what else to say here that's not just paraphrasing Lopen, because I agree with him on the merit of Red's observation. I don't think I really noticed Poppy playing differently, so an explanation would be nice.

I do think it's ridiculous to accuse Sbell of trying to "discredit" Red when it's completely reasonable to grill Red after that last game where he won by doing pretty much nothing. I don't think discrediting Red was the objective; more so trying to get Red to talk more. But good luck trying to break that barrier anytime soon.

That being said, the fact that Red elaborated on his point after being prompted by Sbell even just a tiny bit is a noticeable difference from Red's rather haphazard and low-key play from last game. Is it substantial? Ehhh not yet, but it's worth noting.

Kirby, I don't think a claim is going to matter for BCT, at least in my eyes. There has been considerable support for BCT to not be pushed further, I don't believe his lynch is actually on the table.

Let's say I'm wrong and BCT just doesn't know how to be town, yet. Let's say he's power. I don't want to out that. Now we still don't lynch him but likely got him killed or roleblocked and that's just as shitty as mislynhing him.

Let's say he's scum and claims Vanilla... what good is there in that?

changmas posted...

i'm sure him agreeing with you on everything except for a inconsequential (and perhaps even fake) argument about what happened 3 games ago has no impact on this though. I have a hard time believing Kirby cares this much about whether or not you could have been "MVP" of Baseball Mafia. But it does a great job of making it seem like the two of you are at odds.

oh is this cfwr?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

oh is this cfwr?

if only i knew what that meant

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sorry! If it helps, I intentionally pushed this argument to get a read on you.

... Well, I suppose I should've known better. I feel like I just got slammed by a wave of deja vu after reading that. Nonetheless, I appreciate the response!

##unvote
##Vote:Chang

Hi chang

Obellisk posted...

Kirby, I don't think a claim is going to matter for BCT, at least in my eyes. There has been considerable support for BCT to not be pushed further, I don't believe his lynch is actually on the table.

Let's say I'm wrong and BCT just doesn't know how to be town, yet. Let's say he's power. I don't want to out that. Now we still don't lynch him but likely got him killed or roleblocked and that's just as shitty as mislynhing him.

Let's say he's scum and claims Vanilla... what good is there in that?

Fair enough. It seemed the town was very split on BCT, so that's why I suggested that as a possible resolution, but I'm also adverse to early claims.

If I'm following your posts correctly, your current scum leads are Sultan and possibly Red, yes?

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

##unvote
##Vote:Chang

Hi chang

hello. i see you've swapped from being of suspicious of Han to jumping on the train he's starting awfully quickly

Kirby321 posted...

Fair enough. It seemed the town was very split on BCT, so that's why I suggested that as a possible resolution, but I'm also adverse to early claims.

If I'm following your posts correctly, your current scum leads are Sultan and possibly Red, yes?

Honestly... no
Sultan I started with a push to be scum but since don't feel as if it's gunna hold any water. I'm middle ground with him.

And red... I mean can anyone ever truly suspect him day 1? I think he walked in oddly. could have been a vote on anyone (happens to be me), I don't see the context and he's stayed there. His highlighting Poppy came out of nowhere and we'll we've been over that.

I believe I'd have better lucky tossing a dart at the player list right now over picking someone to lynch.

Why is Kirby town Han

changmas posted...

hello. i see you've swapped from being of suspicious of Han to jumping on the train he's starting awfully quickly

Interesting response.
Anyways I had the same question has Han flat out said no Kirby is town.

I am asking why he is scum. I want to know. Also wanted to see your response to my vote

Obellisk posted...

how bad? and does it come with good news?

No.

Let me rephrase Han says nay Kirby is town but you say Kirby is scum.

Whys is Han wrong?
Why are your right?

Corrik7 posted...

No.

the floor is yours.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

IGCD and Corrik as well

Rude.

Obellisk posted...

the floor is yours.

I am watching Highlander for the first time.

lol jk

The bad news is that I have not sufficiently figured out swathes of town or narrowed down on scum yet. Partly, this is because there has been no pressure or moments in this game which would reveal alignments. I suggest you guys start actually pressuring people instead of just bouncing in circles doing very little.

Also

Lopen is Town

So the bad news is... we likely have a competent scum team also.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Let me rephrase Han says nay Kirby is town but you say Kirby is scum.

Whys is Han wrong?
Why are your right?

When Lopen is making logical sense and isn't completely BSing arguments off of the tiniest of factors, he's often right and worth trusting to lead the lynch. Like last game, when he nailed you dead to rights on day 1. Secondly, I just don't buy that Kirby genuinely cares so much about Han's performance in baseball mafia. it feels very contrived to me.

that's all i've really got right now.

Was wondering where all the changmas lynch trainers were coming from, then I remembered a post I wanted to address but completely forgot about.

PunishedBen posted...

It was a joke yes.

Actually, Chang, what WERE you hoping to find anyway by digging into that post? Surely if you found him role hinting you weren't planning to reveal it?

See, I feel like every time someone gets accused of trying to bait out a role claim, they're really just town who didn't really think things through. I think Ulti and Sultan are typically the ones who end up on the other side of that argument.

Intuitively, yeah, that's pretty damn odd and certainly something I'd agree with under normal circumstances if I wasn't wrong every time I tried making that argument. I'm just wary of Ben trying to be manipulative and pouncing on the mistakes of other players to set up a mislynch. I distrust Ben in this game more than I do chang (who hasn't made much of an impression this game anyway).

It just feels like he's been really trying to get on my good side this game, even down to the whole "I think Kirby is town I think we just have some differences to work out" schtick that I'm pretty sure he also used in Simple Mafia. Am I the only one who is suspicious of Ben?

Corrik7 posted...

So the bad news is... we likely have a competent scum team also.

oh good, that rules me out.

Kirby321 posted...

It just feels like he's been really trying to get on my good side this game, even down to the whole "I think Kirby is town I think we just have some differences to work out" schtick that I'm pretty sure he also used in Simple Mafia. Am I the only one who is suspicious of Ben?

I kinda picked up on this but I was not sure you guys history is on other boards. I figured you just knew each other well and Ben was still trying to figure out out more than anything else.

Have any specific example that paint it more clearly?

Corrik7 posted...

So the bad news is... we likely have a competent scum team also.

I'd like to note down that I think Corrik probably would say this about a scum team that he's on

changmas posted...

Secondly, I just don't buy that Kirby genuinely cares so much about Han's performance in baseball mafia. it feels very contrived to me.

So sheeping Lopen and a very weak probably irrelevant conversation?

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

So sheeping Lopen and a very weak probably irrelevant conversation?

sure, if that's how you want to view it. though I believe you yourself said you thought Lopen was in form this game

I explained why I thought Kirby is scum

Han hasn't explain why he thinks Kirby is town and I feel he should

changmas posted...

sure, if that's how you want to view it. though I believe you yourself said you thought Lopen was in form this game

I do still believe that yeah.
You've responded fine to my test.

Sleeping Lopen isn't horrible I guess.
How significant do you really think that MVP conversion is?

Kirby321 posted...

Am I the only one who is suspicious of Ben?

No.

Corrik7 posted...

The bad news is that I have not sufficiently figured out swathes of town or narrowed down on scum yet. Partly, this is because there has been no pressure or moments in this game which would reveal alignments. I suggest you guys start actually pressuring people instead of just bouncing in circles doing very little.

Be the change you want to see in the world then :P
Not that you'll care if I say that.

changmas posted...

When Lopen is making logical sense and isn't completely BSing arguments off of the tiniest of factors, he's often right and worth trusting to lead the lynch. Like last game, when he nailed you dead to rights on day 1. Secondly, I just don't buy that Kirby genuinely cares so much about Han's performance in baseball mafia. it feels very contrived to me.

that's all i've really got right now.

Lopen has pulled the "you said this, but if you were town, you would've said this" card twice now, and both times felt like grasping at straws. Which, I mean, is classic Lopen, so I guess he's got that going for him, but then again, he completely deceived spectator me in Baseball Musical Mafia, so what do I know.

All I know is that his argument against me is an extreme stretch.

Speaking of stretches, that second "argument" sounds like a last-minute, cooked-up excuse to get the train started up on me, especially when it's wrong. Han and I were arguing about Nickelodeon Mafia, but I'm not gonna press that point further because I hate feeling like an "um akchually" over such a contrivance.

Point is, I don't think you have solid reasoning. I was willing to write you off as town being picked on by Ben as a mislynch target, but now I'm not so sure.

I get the feeling chang and Ben aren't on the same side. If one flips scum, the other is likely town.
Granted, I might be overthinking this, but I don't like Ben, and my opinion on chang is starting to sour, but I don't think they're both scum. Hmm... though Ben does like bussing his teammates, from what I recall in previous games with him.

it's definitely not the most significant thing out there, but there's only so much you can draw conclusions from in the first 24 hours of the game. there's gonna be 2-3 times as much information to go off of by the deadline tomorrow, so that should help to make everything a lot more clear by then

Getting a nagging feeling Han is trying to pocket people by grilling them and backing off and calling them town before any meaningful pressure is generated

Lopen posted...

I explained why I thought Kirby is scum

Han hasn't explain why he thinks Kirby is town and I feel he should

I was napping!

I don't think Kirby as Scum tries to tamp down on discussion of the past game like that. For one, Scum love talking about past games (you yourself are complicit in this). For two, it's an opportunity to post and be active and have it not have anything to do with the current game.

I believe Kirby genuinely didn't want to fill the sphere of this game with unrelated discussion.

Also, if there is a dayvig just shoot Chang now.

And yeah, I agree with what Chang said!:

changmas posted...

I'd like to note down that I think Corrik probably would say this about a scum team that he's on

Kirby321 posted...

. I don't think I really noticed Poppy playing differently, so an explanation would be nice.

He had solid reasoning for most of his statements and suspicions last game. Enough that he had me mentally freaking the hell out as scum.

This game hes been a lot looser with words/vote.

Lopen posted...

Getting a nagging feeling Han is trying to pocket people by grilling them and backing off and calling them town before any meaningful pressure is generated

I had a nagging feeling you were just riding beneath my wings this game so it's good to see you actually say something like this lol.

Kirby321 posted...

Be the chang you want to see in the world then :P
Not that you'll care if I say that.

fixed

Kirby321 posted...

Speaking of stretches, that second "argument" sounds like a last-minute, cooked-up excuse to get the train started up on me, especially when it's wrong. Han and I were arguing about Nickelodeon Mafia, but I'm not gonna press that point further because I hate feeling like an "um akchually" over such a contrivance.

Point is, I don't think you have solid reasoning. I was willing to write you off as town being picked on by Ben as a mislynch target, but now I'm not so sure.

I'll admit it's not the strongest argument out there, but you've got 24 hours to convince me otherwise. By no means am I locked into that view, it's just where I'm sitting now. I still think it's a little weird how much effort you were putting into a bygone game. I did in fact get which game wrong though, so that's my bad there.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I had a nagging feeling you were just riding beneath my wings this game so it's good to see you actually say something like this lol.

Hmph this statement feels incredibly town han would impress me otherwise.

PunishedBen posted...

I'd like to believe this comment makes Sultan town who didnt read the rules. If he was scum he would be fully aware of the flavor split, with his allies roles and a safelist to go off of. In fact, the man goes on to say that his own flavor supports "mine", which proves that if he is scum he already has a planned flavor claim in mind that he has discussed. Therefore it makes no sense that he is scum here and doesnt realize my flavor does not fit the game.

Therefore Sultan is town. Welcome back to ***THE OFFICAL BOOK OF CONFIRMED TOWN*** brother

Lopen posted...

If he was town there would be a reason he believes your role could be vanilla based on what his role is.

On my end I look at your claim and I look at my role PM and I know your flavor claim is bunk. I didn't need to read the rules of the game. Sultan being scum who didn't absorb the flavor (or scum on a team where the roles are anime characters) is just as possible here.

Does anyone think Lopen's rebuttal holds up here?