Board 8 > YGO Master Duel Mafia Topic 1 - Ah yes the worst element: Rookie.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kirby321 posted...

Han's argument is that BCT sounds like he's trying to seem towny rather than having legitimate thoughts. I just feel like I see that argument every game and don't particularly think it's strong, though to Han's credit, he did provide a specific example. And I can see where he's coming from with that post, but I don't think it's a strong enough point to warrant a lynch train.

See so.. to me, it's less a "train of thought" and more "a single point" which is why I wanted you to summarize. Perhaps maybe you had dived into BCT's posts and considered whether Han was correct about BCT trying to appear townish. When I asked, you actually didn't summarize as much as restate the entire argument he had made.

Which begs the question why not just say what Han's play on BCT was instead of referring to it as a "train of thought" since it really is that simple to say. Say "I don't necessarily agree BCT is trying to seem towny" rather than "I don't necessarily agree with Han's train of thought"

Why? It feels like it's because you want to stress that Han has ownership of it. It feels like something scum Kirby might do on a town BCT lynch to set up pressure on Han tomorrow.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It is incorrect, yes. Red is referring to me saying he's always a good lynch, which, since mafia picked back up with Chris's experimental mafia where we were scum together, has been true in every single game except for 1.

Me thinking Red is always a good lynch is not directly related to whether I think he's scum or not.

But right now he strikes me more Townish.

This is a good answer.

Hbthebattle posted...

Even if this is true, is that automatically a scumtell? Is it not possible BCT is trying to play differently considering what happened last time?

Hard argument to make when you consider how he walked into the game.

And I am not the one that placed the fear = scum / anger = town dynamic on the table. That was Han, I'm just responding to it.

Han sees anger and attributed it to BCT being town not scum. I do not see the anger and therefore question why Hans stance has changed.

Obellisk posted...

Hard argument to make when you consider how he walked into the game.

Why are you putting so much stock into post 2 of the game. Do you think scum BCT is going to walk into the game and instantly admit to being scum???

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I like Ctes's explanations as well for the moment

So given he has only really explained anything to me, does that mean you suspected him for the same reason I did?

PoppyTheNinja posted...

why's that b/c i'm not seeing anything that looks town from him

It's always tough with red because it always feels like he says so little, but the impression I get right now is that he is invested in the game. As Scum in the last game, he won by doing shit and letting Town eat itself, and I feel a subtle but noticeable difference here.

He doesn't come across as just posting fluff, in other words.

Hbthebattle posted...

Why are you putting so much stock into post 2 of the game. Do you think scum BCT is going to walk into the game and instantly admit to being scum???

I'm not. I'm just not forgetting it exists after examining his body of work so far.

Lopen posted...

So given he has only really explained anything to me, does that mean you suspected him for the same reason I did?

First post was a worthless check-in that seemed like it was trying to not look like worthless check-in.

Obellisk posted...

Hard argument to make when you consider how he walked into the game.

And I am not the one that placed the fear = scum / anger = town dynamic on the table. That was Han, I'm just responding to it.

Han sees anger and attributed it to BCT being town not scum. I do not see the anger and therefore question why Hans stance has changed.

Because you're willfully blind tbqh.

I identified BCT as Scum based on his first post in an earlier game. In that game, he started not getting your some things are done, in a way that was a clear lie.

Here, it reads more as frustration. He's not lying when he says he doesn't know how to scumread and yet is trying - he's frustrated for being voted for trying to play the game.

At least, that's how it comes across to me.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Because you're willfully blind tbqh.

So it's your opinion that i'm trying to mislynch BCT?

Kirby321 posted...

Han's argument is that BCT sounds like he's trying to seem towny rather than having legitimate thoughts. I just feel like I see that argument every game and don't particularly think it's strong, though to Han's credit, he did provide a specific example. And I can see where he's coming from with that post, but I don't think it's a strong enough point to warrant a lynch train.

That's what I initially thought, at least, but I went back and briefly skimmed Baseball Musical Mafia (more so I was looking through the dead player lists since I was trying to remember which game BCT replaced out of, which was indeed Baseball Musical Mafia). BCT largely behaved the same back then with going completely on the defensive. So this seems NAI for BCT; this is just how he behaves regardless of being scum or town.

So now I'm wary of repeating what happened in that game. I'm seeing very similar patterns here, though that's just me fearing if BCT is Town. Could just as easily be Mafia, but I'd say it's a coin toss if we're going just off of BCT's reactions right now.

this is a lot of words to reach no meaningful conclusion at all

Obellisk posted...

Sultan. I do still want an answer to this post (Post 200) when you come back. Please and thank you.

Yes it had a purpose and I explained that it is the anyone but me game play I was testing waters by attacking that. I was poking fun and would have dropped it if the response was reciprocated, BCT went defensive fast and that is where i came to where i am.

Then BCT continued to do what I thought he was doing so I pointed it out more clearly later on when it supported my water test.

Ham are you protecting BCT. You think he play is bad town more so than scummy?

Han* I cannot type today or something

I have bad news.

Corrik7 posted...

I have bad news.

how bad? and does it come with good news?

Obellisk posted...

I think the needle ticks a little further in that direction at the moment.

I don't really accept the "I don't know what I'm doing" attitude, when pressed.

why do you think that attitude is scum-indicative

Obellisk posted...

So it's your opinion that i'm trying to mislynch BCT?

Possible. you've been setting it up to be a more realistic push, but I don't think you've really pushed hard enough to be trying to lynch.

I also hate to have to clarify this, but saying you're being willfully blind is more that I think you're shutting down input to continue to pursue what you have been pursuing. That's not necessarily alignment indicating.

PoppyTheNinja posted...

why do you think that attitude is scum-indicative

Why is that attitude not scum-indicative? This is his third game? replaced out as scum. got lynched as town. Why should we just chalk him off as Town because he doesn't know what he's doing? "I dont have a team to coach me"... its WIFOM garbage and i wont let it influence my opinions as I read the game.

PoppyTheNinja posted...

why do you think that attitude is scum-indicative

In SBell's favor, BCT has feigned a lack of knowledge about the game before when Scum. But in that case, it was specifically knowledge about the game/community, whereas his current words are more about skill.

He got replaced as town. He won the game as Scum (because people chose to not listen to Han)

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I think you're shutting down input to continue to pursue what you have been pursuing

I don't think i'm necessarily shutting down the input. I suppose I just haven't been provided the "right" input needed to pull me in the other direction.

Obellisk posted...

Why is that attitude not scum-indicative? This is his third game? replaced out as scum. got lynched as town. Why should we just chalk him off as Town because he doesn't know what he's doing? "I dont have a team to coach me"... its WIFOM garbage and i wont let it influence my opinions as I read the game.

Are you willfully ignoring the context behind "his last game ended super badly for him, causing a ton of people to jump on his train and he didnt know what to do"? Like, you know EXACTLY why he's acting like that, dude. That isn't a scumtell.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

He got replaced as town. He won the game as Scum (because people chose to not listen to Han)

Well the memory isn't as sharp as it once was. However i'm not too sure getting that bit mixed up matters much for working theories.

Obellisk posted...

I don't think i'm necessarily shutting down the input. I suppose I just haven't been provided the "right" input needed to pull me in the other direction.

When I called BCT Scum when he was Scum, he was dodgy.
When BCT was called Scum as Town, he got riled up.

He was riled up last night.

It DOES matter from working theories because he needed to get replaced based on his reaction to being voted when he was Town.

He did not have the same reaction as Scum.

PoppyTheNinja posted...

does he overreacted to pressure as town or is it exclusively as scum, because if it's the former then "testing the consistency of this pattern" isn't going to accomplish anything but makign him frustrated

No yeah, I rescind my statement earlier about testing BCT further. It didn't dawn on me until this morning that Baseball Musical Mafia was the same game where BCT replaced out, and I remember clearly now that Plum got eviscerated because BCT was acting like this as Town, too.

So I don't think grilling BCT any more today has any benefits given that he acts the same way as scum and town (though some people are saying that there's a subtle difference in fear vs. anger). Because you're right; it'll just make him more frustrated in the end without telling us anything.

That being said...

PoppyTheNinja posted...

he asked you about one thing that was seemingly contradictory in your posts, he wasn't even pushing you over it

this actually does feel needlessly defensive

I don't know what your experience has been with the players here as far as Mafia goes, but past experience gives me good reasons to suspect Ben right now. His play in this game is reminding me a lot of his Simple Mafia playstyle, where he was scum. Call it defensive, but I've had a pretty good accuracy on reading Ben these past couple of games.

Lopen posted...

See so.. to me, it's less a "train of thought" and more "a single point" which is why I wanted you to summarize. Perhaps maybe you had dived into BCT's posts and considered whether Han was correct about BCT trying to appear townish. When I asked, you actually didn't summarize as much as restate the entire argument he had made.

Which begs the question why not just say what Han's play on BCT was instead of referring to it as a "train of thought" since it really is that simple to say. Say "I don't necessarily agree BCT is trying to seem towny" rather than "I don't necessarily agree with Han's train of thought"

Why? It feels like it's because you want to stress that Han has ownership of it. It feels like something scum Kirby might do on a town BCT lynch to set up pressure on Han tomorrow.

I mean... I dunno? I made my original post not too long before I went to bed, so everything was kinda nebulous and I just wanted to offer my thoughts before getting ready for bed. Didn't think I needed to explicitly restate Han's argument, I guess?

For what it's worth, I replied to your post after I woke up this morning with a clearer mind and had an epiphany about BCT's town behavior in Baseball Musical Mafia and getting replaced by Plum. So my opinion sorta changed between those two posts because I then remembered how town BCT behaved and how it lines up with his current behavior and how he acted as scum in Nickelodeon Mafia.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

When I called BCT Scum when he was Scum, he was dodgy.
When BCT was called Scum as Town, he got riled up.

He was riled up last night.

I re-read it. Sure. the 3 posts he made after you called him scum definitely struck a nerve and he immediately tossed counter suspicion on you and then peaced out because he "knows" he "didn't do anything remotely scummy".

If anything i'd say you've got a mixture of both dodgy and riled. And taking the game from just THIS game and ignoring what we've seen in the past, i'd say he's still definitely tilting more in a negative light.

Obellisk posted...

Why is that attitude not scum-indicative? This is his third game? replaced out as scum. got lynched as town. Why should we just chalk him off as Town because he doesn't know what he's doing? "I dont have a team to coach me"... its WIFOM garbage and i wont let it influence my opinions as I read the game.

I thought he was Scum once in Nickelodeon Mafia, where he stayed 'til the end and managed to convince Ulti not to vote for him and ultimately win Mafia the game.

I'm gonna need a full history of BCT's games here, because I only recall him playing in Nickelodeon Mafia (didn't replace out and won the game as Mafia) and Baseball Musical Mafia (replaced out as Town, and his replacement got lynched shortly afterward).

HanOfTheNekos posted...

He got replaced as town. He won the game as Scum (because people chose to not listen to Han)

Statements like these will always irk me >_>
We don't talk about the massive throw that is Nickelodeon Mafia. Paragon Ben (who you tried to lynch Day 1!) was the real MVP that game, not you :P

But that's neither here nor there.

Kirby i'm mixing up games. You and Han are most likely correct about his game history.

Kirby321 posted...

Statements like these will always irk me >_>
We don't talk about the massive throw that is Nickelodeon Mafia. Paragon Ben (who you tried to lynch Day 1!) was the real MVP that game, not you :P

But that's neither here nor there.

Was that the game where I said plum and BCT were scum with my first post and was correct?

Just saying.

I wouldn't argue that Ben (and Lea I think?) were mvp's of the game - only that things would have gone differently if people looked at my day and had trust.

Obellisk posted...

I re-read it. Sure. the 3 posts he made after you called him scum definitely struck a nerve and he immediately tossed counter suspicion on you and then peaced out because he "knows" he "didn't do anything remotely scummy".

If anything i'd say you've got a mixture of both dodgy and riled. And taking the game from just THIS game and ignoring what we've seen in the past, i'd say he's still definitely tilting more in a negative light.

Let me ask - what do you want aside from more pressure on BCT?

Kirby321 posted...

Didn't think I needed to explicitly restate Han's argument, I guess?

You don't have to. I just think referring to it as "what Han said" when "what Han said" is just a few words is strange. It's less about a need and more about why you instinctively phrased it that way.

Gotcha. Sorry if I was being too abrasive with that misunderstanding.

Does that change your thoughts about BCT's behavior at all? Because I agree with Hb; BCT's behavior is a null-tell since he does this as either alignment.

Looking back at this whole fear vs. anger stuff in Nickelodeon Mafia, I don't think I see it tbh. BCT is always eager to fire back at people who vote for him or outright call him scum. I don't really see a distinction between "dodgy" and "riled up" from the posts I skimmed.

Han, let's discuss that after this game is over. I completely disagree with your statement about your importance in Nickelodeon Mafia, but this isn't the right time or place to argue about that.

I didn't say I was important. I said I was right on those reads.

If you don't want to discuss it, stop being wrong~

Also, Ben, I want your summary on Kirby rn

re: the BCT issue

i really just don't understand this attitude.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Hi guys, do you suspect me yet? Does it really matter what I post?

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I can't recall a time when I've been serious, lol. I might appear like that when I'm in a down mood but I'm really just trying to find humor in things. It's how I roll.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I have done nothing even remotely scummy so I am very confused by how you came to that conclusion, Han.

But, I will see you all on Day 2, seeing as every time I open my mouth day 1, it gets me in trouble for reasons that absolutely BAFFLE me (breathing, perhaps?), so I'm just going to learn my lesson and shut up.

It's as if you come into the game with the pre-conceived notion that you're going to be targeted on day 1 and then do everything in your power possible to make people target you. a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will. like it starts off as a joke here but as soon as the first person aims the slightest suspicion at you the "joke" faade falls away instantaneously and it's super serious business again.

i'm baffled that you continue to fall into this trap of your own making each game. with that being said, i'm fairly confident that this is a town tell for you as others have already said and i will be leaving it at that for today.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Let me ask - what do you want aside from more pressure on BCT?

I mean, I want a lot of things. I suppose I will want more production from BCT to determine if he's trying to play or trying to survive.

I want his flip ultimately because I believe it's going to clear the cloud over the game a bit no matter which way he flips. Of course, if i can be made to be more comfortable with a town stance from him then perhaps a flip wouldn't be necessary.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I didn't say I was important. I said I was right on those reads.

If you don't want to discuss it, stop being wrong~

Also, Ben, I want your summary on Kirby rn

Kirby321 posted...

I don't know what your experience has been with the players here as far as Mafia goes, but past experience gives me good reasons to suspect Ben right now. His play in this game is reminding me a lot of his Simple Mafia playstyle, where he was scum. Call it defensive, but I've had a pretty good accuracy on reading Ben these past couple of games.

I dont think scum Kirby is bold enough to play this card on me and I think he'd be more fearful of me sniffing him out to get on my bad side early. He seems too confident he is onto to something to be scum here.

So, I think he's town and these are issues the two of us will just have to work out. My goal is to play the same as both scum and town so I'll take it as a compliment

Obellisk posted...

Why is that attitude not scum-indicative? This is his third game? replaced out as scum. got lynched as town. Why should we just chalk him off as Town because he doesn't know what he's doing? "I dont have a team to coach me"... its WIFOM garbage and i wont let it influence my opinions as I read the game.

for someone in their third game ever it's sort of exactly what i'd expect and the frustration at being misread and feeling lost as everyone is making arguments that go way over your head is very typical for a new player. that whole "i'm lost and don't have anyone to caoch me" post comes from a townie like 95%+ of the time

pushing him for that is pretty gross, ~none of this amounts to an actual case of substance, just using a buzzword like "wifom"

HanOfTheNekos posted...

If you don't want to discuss it, stop being wrong~

I mean, if you want to be petty, your correct reads mean jack shit if you can't convince people to follow them.

You can't just say "if people had TRUSTED and BELIEVED ME that game things would've gone differently." I mean, you're right. If we had followed you and special'd Ben on Day 1, things would've gone very differently that game, for all the wrong reasons :P

Blame yourself if nobody was listening to you that game. But again, that has nothing to do with this current game, so stuff it.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

In SBell's favor, BCT has feigned a lack of knowledge about the game before when Scum. But in that case, it was specifically knowledge about the game/community, whereas his current words are more about skill.

yeah faking derps/dumbtells isn't really the same thing as faking a town emotional state

okay i lied im gonna say more

Obellisk posted...

I don't really accept the "I don't know what I'm doing" attitude, when pressed.

thus far i've come to expect that as the outcome you will receive when attempting into BCT's motivations. null-tell on that.

Hbthebattle posted...

Even if this is true, is that automatically a scumtell? Is it not possible BCT is trying to play differently considering what happened last time?

very good post here from HB. this is the argument i was making in isquen's favor all the way back in elden ring mafia. a new-ish player who does something poorly and gets destroyed for it should probably be attempting to consciously change what they do in that situation in a future game.

Kirby321 posted...

I mean, if you want to be petty, your correct reads mean jack shit if you can't convince people to follow them.

You can't just say "if people had TRUSTED and BELIEVED ME that game things would've gone differently." I mean, you're right. If we had followed you and special'd Ben on Day 1, things would've gone very differently that game, for all the wrong reasons :P

Blame yourself if nobody was listening to you that game. But again, that has nothing to do with this current game, so stuff it.

You're saying nothing I haven't already said.

I'm so right, you're literally plagiarizing me lol

Lopen posted...

See so.. to me, it's less a "train of thought" and more "a single point" which is why I wanted you to summarize. Perhaps maybe you had dived into BCT's posts and considered whether Han was correct about BCT trying to appear townish. When I asked, you actually didn't summarize as much as restate the entire argument he had made.

Which begs the question why not just say what Han's play on BCT was instead of referring to it as a "train of thought" since it really is that simple to say. Say "I don't necessarily agree BCT is trying to seem towny" rather than "I don't necessarily agree with Han's train of thought"

Why? It feels like it's because you want to stress that Han has ownership of it. It feels like something scum Kirby might do on a town BCT lynch to set up pressure on Han tomorrow.

ooh i am very much liking Lopen again this game. particularly that last point about stressing ownership of the thought. i'm not sure i believe kirby could successfully set up real pressure on Han over a BCT lynch, but I think a general goal of trying to discredit Han's reads this game is definitely plausible for him.

Corrik7 posted...

I have bad news.

and do share

Let's kill Kirby.

Let's kill Lopen

Do you think Kirby is town Ben

I am quite confident he is, yes

PunishedBen posted...

I dont think scum Kirby is bold enough to play this card on me and I think he'd be more fearful of me sniffing him out to get on my bad side early. He seems too confident he is onto to something to be scum here.

Is it all this or something else?