Current Events > Help clarify this? Is the comicbook industry still dying?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Was it ever in trouble. I am not talking about the 90s and back. I am talking about the last ten years or so. Like five or six years ago, I kept hearing that the industry was dying because of 'sjw' but I can't find any measurement of succes myself. I did hear from a non bias source that manga is doing well. But I did hear from a bias source that it is because it doesn't pander to sjw.

So what is it? Is it successful? Plateau, failing?

Both DC and Marvel are struggling. Readership is very small compared to decades ago. They are currently trying to transfer to digital from physical. Barely anyone buys weekly physical issues anymore and many comic book stores have gone out of business in the past decade

The sad truth is, most people don't care about the comic books. They love to watch the MCU but they won't ever read the source material. Comics may eventually recover if they can really embrace digital and get more readers in that form

Paper comics are inevitably going to go extinct

Zikten posted...

Both DC and Marvel are struggling. Readership is very small compared to decades ago. They are currently trying to transfer to digital from physical. Barely anyone buys weekly physical issues anymore and many comic book stores have gone out of business in the past decade

The sad truth is, most people don't care about the comic books. They love to watch the MCU but they won't ever read the source material. Comics may eventually recover if they can really embrace digital and get more readers in that form

Paper comics are inevitably going to go extinct

Bah, I still love the singles. It will never be fully replaced

Zikten posted...

Both DC and Marvel are struggling. Readership is very small compared to decades ago. They are currently trying to transfer to digital from physical. Barely anyone buys weekly physical issues anymore and many comic book stores have gone out of business in the past decade

The sad truth is, most people don't care about the comic books. They love to watch the MCU but they won't ever read the source material. Comics may eventually recover if they can really embrace digital and get more readers in that form

Paper comics are inevitably going to go extinct

It's unfortunate, i've started collecting again. I read through Marvel's Weirdworld digital and liked it so much, I wanted the set and expected to pay a decent bit for them. I wound up getting the 5 book series for $8, new, shipped. Made me grab a bunch of others, I anticipated the values to be a lot higher, but it also makes entry level fairly inexpensive for a ton of series.

I am also enjoying the Unlimited app a lot.

At this point the print books only exist as source material for movies/TV.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Part of the problem of why nobody buys singles anymore

Yes, but that is partially because a lot of things...

Manga and anime are becoming more popular because they are more diverse in storylines, themes and emotions.

Most of the storylines, characters and themes in popular American comics are tired, uninteresting, and unnatural.

The stakes don't matter in some instances because deaths of popular characters are used for cheap shock value because they are temporary in some form, be it that it will not have come to pass somehow / they'll brought back in the future / time and / or universe shenanigans, etc..

More people are finding out about the bigoted origins of American comics and their creators.

Too many series competing for your time, money and storage space.

There is more, but I digress. IMO Fuck American comics. They are the "Pro" Wrestling of fictional media. They have very little of real value to offer the world. Hopefully a lot more people wise up and grow out of the MCU so there can be a lot less trash too, so modern day American cinema can be respectable again.

Number090684 posted...

More people are finding out about the bigoted origins of American comics and their creators.

Do you mean modern creators? Cause the real original creators were mostly liberals of their era. Stan Lee was a massive liberal. And I think the 2 men who made Superman were as well

I'm just going to assume that was a troll post and not respond to it at all.

MabusIncarnate posted...

I'm just going to assume that was a troll post and not respond to it at all.

Yeah, I've tried typing out so many ways to respond to #8, and I'm just going to ignore it.

The comic book model has been increasingly unsustainable for years now, despite the properties being more popular than ever.

It basically requires you to go into a niche store and buy a monthly, 22-page issue for $4 which is pricy. Finding those stores can be tough and often require you setting up a "pull list" which is another barrier for entry. And sad as is, while most of these shops and nice and run by nice people, some can absolutely give off a lot of there not great nerd stereotypes. I remember in college one of my friends went with me to the local comic book store and several interactions with the people there made her really uncomfortable. So just not a good look.

Worse though is knowing when there is a good jump in point can be really tricky. I don't subscribe to the idea that someone needs to have read umpteen million back issues to be able to start reading a character. In fact most comics have a reasonable jump in point every 6-12 issues, but outside of issue 1 on a new run, it's really hard for anyone on the outside to know when those points are. I will say the increasingly common crossovers do create a narrative barrier to entry though. The second you ask people to buy issues of a different comic just to understand the story in the current comic you absolutely lose more casual fans.

All in all, comic books are just hard to get into so they just keep doubling down on an increasingly small and insular fan base. Which creates a seperate issue because then attempts to diversify the fanbase by adding diversity piss off the current paying fanbase because "change bad" while not actually attracting new fans because they still have a bunch of other barriers to entry.

people who don't read comics are racist and/or sexist

Also they keep changing the comics to be like the movies, hoping people will buy a comic after they watch a movie. But it doesn't work and the changes just make the actual readers mad

I like physical things to collect. The problem for me is, theres so much and things been going on for so long, i dont know where to start and theres probably no way to collect everything right? Im very put off by that. So i just dont bother.

I know some mangas releases with box sets and some collection versions like omnibuses but afaik, these comics go on for ever so i dont think id want to delve into such things either.

Compsognathus posted...

The comic book model has been increasingly unsustainable for years now, despite the properties being more popular than ever.

It basically requires you to go into a niche store and buy a monthly, 22-page issue for $4 which is pricy. Finding those stores can be tough and often require you setting up a "pull list" which is another barrier for entry. And sad as is, while most of these shops and nice and run by nice people, some can absolutely give off a lot of there not great nerd stereotypes. I remember in college one of my friends went with me to the local comic book store and several interactions with the people there made her really uncomfortable. So just not a good look.

Worse though is knowing when there is a good jump in point can be really tricky. I don't subscribe to the idea that someone needs to have read umpteen million back issues to be able to start reading a character. In fact most comics have a reasonable jump in point every 6-12 issues, but outside of issue 1 on a new run, it's really hard for anyone on the outside to know when those points are. I will say the increasingly common crossovers do create a narrative barrier to entry though. The second you ask people to buy issues of a different comic just to understand the story in the current comic you absolutely lose more casual fans.

All in all, comic books are just hard to get into so they just keep doubling down on an increasingly small and insular fan base. Which creates a seperate issue because then attempts to diversify the fanbase by adding diversity piss off the current paying fanbase because "change bad" while not actually attracting new fans because they still have a bunch of other barriers to entry.

This sums up why outside of the physical media issue. The barrier of entry is too daunting even for someone who has seen every MCU movie. Even though they do a decent job of explaining, the characters are presented as though you're already supposed to know them.

Even from starting from issue #1 of an imprint, it still feels like it's referencing things that have been going on for decades, with complex, overarching stories.

Then on the other end, you have manga, which is very formulaic, easy to digest, takes less creative risks, and rarely has crossovers (and also cheaper), so it's easy to see why it's dominating the market.

Hayame_Zero posted...

This sums up why outside of the physical media issue. The barrier of entry is too daunting even for someone who has seen every MCU movie. Even though they do a decent job of explaining, the characters are presented as though you're already supposed to know them.

Even from starting from issue #1 of an imprint, it still feels like it's referencing things that have been going on for decades, with complex, overarching stories.

Then on the other end, you have manga, which is very formulaic, easy to digest, takes less creative risks, and rarely has crossovers (and also cheaper), so it's easy to see why it's dominating the market.

That is because they totally ARE referencing shit from 1992/1980/when the hell ever.

Comic books are like soap operas in where really only long time usage is rewarded. Kind of dumb like that.

So the only hope for success is an on screen adaptation? Damn that is rough.

omniryu posted...

So the only hope for success is an on screen adaptation? Damn that is rough.

I don't think that's exclusively the only option but they have their work cut out for them. I think easily accessible, affordable digital comics is key. And on that platform offer curated reading list for characters that offer important story arcs and highlight good entry points.

I think moving away from the single issue, as big of a change as it is, is probably necessary. Trade Paper Backs are inherently easier to sell in more places than comic shops, often are built around stories that have a beginning, middle, and end, which helps alleviate some of the entry quandries, and are just frankly easier to read.

People are moving towards GNs / TPBs. Folks okay with waiting a month or two get a book with much higher quality art & composition so it looks nicer on the shelf.

But also the elephant in the room people don't want to talk about is that big 2 are having the most trouble while other companies are growing so part of it is just competition and the big publishers are losing to indies.

Tyranthraxus posted...

People are moving towards GNs / TPBs. Folks okay with waiting a month or two get a book with much higher quality art & composition so it looks nicer on the shelf.

But also the elephant in the room people don't want to talk about is that big 2 are having the most trouble while other companies are growing so part of it is just competition and the big publishers are losing to indies.

It's also worth noting that the indies are inherently less beholden to the system that now strangles the Big 2. The Big 2 made it hard to for anyone else to thrive in their ecosystem. So others had to find circumvent that system. Now that the ecosystem is dying, the indies are in a lot better place to adapt and succeed, while the Big 2 are trapped and scrambling to catch up.

Number090684 posted...

There is more, but I digress. IMO Fuck American comics.

I don't like this attitude. Yeah, Marvel and DC are a problem, but this does a disservice to all of the other comics outside of those two companies. It's also discouraging to American comic artists because they wouldn't be able to grow their work (and of course won't or can't go to Japan to become a manga artist).

The best way to get into comics today is subscribe to

Marvel Unlimited

DC Universe Infinite

You get access to a massive archive of comics history. And they do sometimes have stuff like a big Comic Event sorted for a new reader, basically putting each issue in the order its intended to be read

But it is much easier and cheaper than trying to collect all these comics in paper form

I recently read through Immortal Hulk. It's one of the first comics I've ever read, and it's pretty cool, but it also does a really good job of showing what is wrong with comics, at least in my personal opinion. The gallery has 7 images, there are some small spoilers in it.

https://imgur.com/a/r0TRku3

This hulk is politically charged. He is, in no uncertain terms a leftist. Banner starts a Communist pirate radio. Hulk is antigovernmental and anti-capitalist. He talks about and is actively trying to destroy the world because if he does it maybe some people will live. People begin to listen to his message; teens start rioting in the streets while yelling "Hulk Smash" and hurling Tear Gas at cops. A cop attempts to shoot his own daughter because she turned into a blue-haired liberal, (and since she was wearing a mask and in a riot he'd have plausible deniability) and Hulk saves her before attacking the cop. In another chapter Hulk finds out a small town police force had been colluding with a government research team to torture an innocent little girl to try and reverse engineer her mutant DNA. Like, they were forcing her to eat dog food. He slaughters all of them, the cops, the researchers, saves the girl, and tells the family they're gonna have to run for a while. He's so disruptive and violent the Avengers kick him out and start treating him as a super villain. And, maybe this is just me, but having Joe Fixit talks about how dope Trans people are because he's all about "wanting to be yourself" is pretty cool too. There's even a Trans researcher who used to work for Kingpin making black market HRT before she was attacked by Daredevil and the whole operation was busted.

But unfortunately this is a comic book. Hulk fights the avengers, but nobody dies. Can't have the other comics get interrupted. Hulk's Teen Brigade ends up quietly disappearing from the story. Hulk kills one CEO who was an evil space alien anyways and stops there. The radio goes nowhere. Banner talks a lot about Communism but the government's reaction is never shown, nor are we treated to Hulk or Banner attempting to do anything at all to the government itself. Government military? Sure go wild, but Hulk never does anything as daring as going after evil pedophile senators or something like that. Even when the aforementioned CEO admits that half of them are in his pocket and are actively fueling his future Resource Wars which won't matter to him because he can just leave Earth and not have to deal with the consequences. Hulk ends up proving he has the power to change the world exactly as he said he would, but then seems to almost forget what he was fighting for in the first place.

It very much feels like the hand of an Editor, pushing back against such an incendiary story, and telling the writers they can't have Hulk actually change anything. If he did it would mess up the timeline of the other comics. How would the other comics react if Hulk successfully tore down the government and installed a new system? That to me is the big problem with comics. All the heroes are fundamentally stuck in the same system. They can't change things, they can't rock the boat too much. Society as a greater whole must stay exactly as it is or other stories would start to lose their meaning. At least, that's how I view Marvel and DC comics.

As far as hobbies go comic books always seemed like one of the least cost effective ones. It's like spending $5 for 10 minutes of entertainment.

Comics do sometimes change stuff like governments. But it just doesn't last

They could have let Hulk overthrow the US government, and the other comics could have reacted to that and it would be a whole thing for a while in all the Marvel Comics

Call it Age of Hulk or something and make it an Event

In DC, they did actually let Lex Luthor become president and he I think was in office for years of real life time.

Compsognathus posted...

I don't think that's exclusively the only option but they have their work cut out for them. I think easily accessible, affordable digital comics is key. And on that platform offer curated reading list for characters that offer important story arcs and highlight good entry points.

I think moving away from the single issue, as big of a change as it is, is probably necessary. Trade Paper Backs are inherently easier to sell in more places than comic shops, often are built around stories that have a beginning, middle, and end, which helps alleviate some of the entry quandries, and are just frankly easier to read.

I do see your point. I will miss the comicbook shop conversation however though. That's also one of the reason I go to gamestop.

I used to follow comics on a regular basis for a while, but stopped over a decade ago for a couple of reasons. The cost was one, which led me to piracy, and then I realised that I just didn't think a lot of what I read was very good. For the most part, Marvel and DC superhero comics just aren't very well written. There are some exceptions, and there are great comics that don't fit into that category though.

GBH713 posted...

I used to follow comics on a regular basis for a while, but stopped over a decade ago for a couple of reasons. The cost was one, which led me to piracy, and then I realised that I just didn't think a lot of what I read was very good. For the most part, Marvel and DC superhero comics just aren't very well written. There are some exceptions, and there are great comics that don't fit into that category though.

James Tynion IV's run in Batman is some good shit

Zikten posted...

Comics do sometimes change stuff like governments. But it just doesn't last

They could have let Hulk overthrow the US government, and the other comics could have reacted to that and it would be a whole thing for a while in all the Marvel Comics

Call it Age of Hulk or something and make it an Event

In DC, they did actually let Lex Luthor become president and he I think was in office for years of real life time.

I think in the author's notes of Immortal Hulk they mentioned that Events were really hard to do because it required a lot of coordination. Immortal Hulk I don't think started off trying to be political, but sort of just stepped into it when the cultural zeitgeist of that moment was all about police brutality. (Not saying it still isn't, but you get the idea). Most of the early chapters deal with The Green Door, Hell, The One Below All, and Banner's father. Then it sort of walks into a whole bunch of cool political stuff, but then ultimately starts to drift back to its original story rather than cash-in on the ideas and themes it had presented. It was still cool, but kind of disappointing. Thus this sort of limbo situation where things go weird. I also don't think I would have been satisfied if Banner wound up president or something like that, and if Hulk were to manage to replace America's government with something better then it would either needed to stick or they'd have to hamfist a way to undo it later.

Heroes by nature can't really make the world a better place or else the comic ends. I feel like a lot of authors would like that, and probably have done that before, but then they need a reason for it come back. Just because Spiderman saved the day doesn't mean people don't want more Spiderman stories.

Zikten posted...

The sad truth is, most people don't care about the comic books. They love to watch the MCU but they won't ever read the source material. Comics may eventually recover if they can really embrace digital and get more readers in that form

Because nostalgia, and the bitter reality of modern comics.

We remember buying comics as a kid with pocket change, maybe getting three or four at once, and enjoying the terrible writing and mediocre (badly-aligned) 4-color art on cheap paper, with terrible-yet-somehow-awesome Hostess Cakes and Seamokeys ads.

Buying a comic today just gets an overly-produced and overpriced glossy mess of even worse art and writing, with the same generic ads as any other magazine.