Current Events > It's still dumb that Elden Ring has no quest log.

(+) Yeah! (+)

"hmm hm hm... fool... moron... dipshit! oh? you want to know my name? hm hm hm..."

then talk to him until he says "eat shit" and exhaust all his dialogue, then go rest at a site of grace. he'll have moved to a new location, but DON'T go too far ahead or he'll vanish from the game!! make sure you got the stinkbutt baditem (see another wiki page) and meet him at this obscure location where you can barely see him kneeling in a corner.

"hm hm hm... it's the maidenless virgin again. if you must know, my name is stinkbutt badguy- wait- that item...! you must give it to me!"

then if you do everything else right (see wiki page for steps), instead of disappearing from the game, he will drop dead and you can get the stinkbutt set of clothes, thus getting the good ending for his questline

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

Doeverythingitis is treatable. Get some help and let normal people experience the game.

I'm going to make a game where the main characters just stop existing without any indication and the story never finishes because you fought an enemy you didn't know ruined the game on defeat. 10/10 "Breath of fresh air in stagnant video game crowd" GOTY guaranteed

But really, if you don't want me to do everything in a game, then get rid of the parts of everything that I shouldn't be doing.

hockeybub89 posted...

I'm going to make a game where the main characters just stop existing without any indication and the story never finishes because you fought an enemy you didn't know ruined the game on defeat. 10/10 "Breath of fresh air in stagnant video game crowd" GOTY guaranteed

Oh? Is there an enemy that ruins the game on defeat? Id LOVE to hear about that. You definitely arent lying.

Elden ring is GOAT tbh

viewmaster_pi posted...

"hmm hm hm... fool... moron... dipshit! oh? you want to know my name? hm hm hm..."

then talk to him until he says "eat shit" and exhaust all his dialogue, then go rest at a site of grace. he'll have moved to a new location, but DON'T go too far ahead or he'll vanish from the game!! make sure you got the stinkbutt baditem (see another wiki page) and meet him at this obscure location where you can barely see him kneeling in a corner.

"hm hm hm... it's the maidenless virgin again. if you must know, my name is stinkbutt badguy- wait- that item...! you must give it to me!"

then if you do everything else right (see wiki page for steps), instead of disappearing from the game, he will drop dead and you can get the stinkbutt set of clothes, thus getting the good ending for his questline

"This is actually the best part of Elden Ring! Reading the wiki to progress."

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

Oh? Is there an enemy that ruins the game on defeat? Id LOVE to hear about that. You definitely arent lying.

I'm expanding side quest logic to the main quest. I guess we could also theorize if this side quest design happened in non-From games and how people would respond.

KanWan posted...

FromSoft just creates worlds where the kind of shit we care about doesnt really matter to these characters and it makes for a great world

That works in the more linear predecessors. It doesn't work in an open world. I need the characters to tell me where the fuck they're going or they're just not getting found. In DS1-3 and BB dilligent players are unlikely to miss very much content because characters will typically move forward in the story, not backwards. ER has no way of knowing where you're going or why, so characters very frequently move to zones you've already explored and give you no indication of returning.

There's also characters like Blaidd who straight up tells you in very specific terms "Hey I'm going to the forest where you met me. There's a well there, go down into it, and meet me in that location so we can work out what to do for the quest line."

"Characters don't care" is not an excuse for bad quest design.

not every open world RPG game needs to be some generic by the numbers Ubisoft type crap where everything is spoon fed and spelled out to you...

hockeybub89 posted...

"This is actually the best part of Elden Ring! Reading the wiki to progress."

Oh so you're just an internet person that doesnt want to just play the game? Theres your problem, bud.

I'm expanding side quest logic to the main quest. I guess we could also theorize if this side quest design happened in non-From games and how people would respond.

GEE, ITS ALMOST LIKE MINOR SIDEQUESTS ARE MINOR SIDEQUESTS. WEIRD. BETTER GET FUCKED UP ABOUT THEM.

As someone who has played every Dark Souls game, 100%'d Elden Ring, and considers it the game of the year for 2022, I feel OP's point and generally agree.

Dark Souls 3 was already a bit of an extreme, but with Elden Ring, the massively open world design simply didn't lend itself well to the old "minimalist" approach to quests, and together with the intertwined nature of the quests themselves, it made for a mostly miserable experience. Whether you're invested in a few or trying to complete them all trying to keep a diary (mental or otherwise) of everything you were doing and needed to is a plainly gratuitous mental toll. Sure, sure. I understand also the points of the people in favor of the system. This is deliberate, this is to make the game more challenging, more immersive (in particular), etc. However, I'd argue this style ultimately does not even work in a way that is in favor of the quest's own internal narrative; you may pick up something again after tens, or even a hundred of hours later; an awful lot of failure triggers that are ultimately curve balls. I mean, trust me, I could rant for hours Rykard locking you out of everything related to the Volcano Manor when there's no warning, virtually no narrative indication, and in a way that punishes the players who relish exploration.

My two cents are that the game could have been improved by acting on the quest design itself, even without a HUD. Placing most quests in relatively accessible areas, inserting clear narrative pointers on where to go/ what to do, or even adding a game mechanic that could help guide the player in the right direction, even without a traditional quest log. Any of this could ameliorate the situation. Nonetheless, to me this a quality of life aspect -- if one of the only aspects -- that should most definitely be tweaked moving forward. Be that from a "quest design" approach or a UI one.

hockeybub89 posted...

It's just annoying imo. Like, there's a middle ground between tossing you into the middle of the Sahara without a map and literally picking you up and carrying you to every objective. I know it's a bad word for some fans, but a few more "options" would be nice.

Yeah I understand that. Im not opposed to it or anything, but I do think any kind of feature like that should be new game plus and onwards. I feel like they dont expect you to do or get everything on the first playthrough

It's an intentional decision for minimalism, nothing dumb about it.

I like no quest markers since it pollutes the menus and UI less, but some of these NPC questlines would be fucking impossible if you played the game, took a couple week break for whichever reason, and then returned. Perhaps not an outright quest log with direct map markers and shit, but an equivalent of an in-universe corkboard like your own room at the Roundtable Hold (like Gideon) or something where a small list of essential NPCs you've met like Alexander or the Dung Eater are listed with their recent activity, so not explicitly telling you "go here to continue Alexander's story" but enough context from their story that you can extrapolate what's next and it exists so you don't forget where you are along the questline.

DezDroppedFreak posted...

I feel like they dont expect you to do or get everything on the first playthrough

then don't make it a 100+ hour open world slog. this stuff was fine in the older games because each big area was connected, there was a big path to follow, and a more natural progression where the player finds things and NPCs on the way. that design just doesn't hold up in a big bloated map that wants you to do things at your own pace, in your own order, but also punish you for it for some reason.

then people say, "you don't have to do everything in your first playthrough, that's what new game plus is for!" fuck. that. i'm not starting over and dropping even more hours into this just to do a couple things i missed or screwed up. this is in fact the only souls game i wasn't excited to start a new character or NG+ run in. the open world wore out its welcome

Elden Ring is a little bloated. Whereas I can do 3 runs of Sekiro after a first time play through in about 40 hours.

dancing_cactuar posted...

so not explicitly telling you "go here to continue Alexander's story"

why not, though? so you just have to look it up on the wiki or waste your time aimlessly plodding around the map, hoping you didn't go too far and have him disappear? i don't understand the way Souls game fans straight up fetishize obfuscation and this archaic "idk lol figure it out but do it the way i want you to, which i won't tell you. in other words, check the wiki or subreddit" quest design.

Not every game needs to have the same design philosophy, in much the same way that not every book needs to be written in the same style. Some authors tell an a-to-b story, and some obfuscate information and chronology to tell the same events in different fashion. Neither is necessarily better than the other.

Antifar posted...

Not every game needs to have the same design philosophy, in much the same way that not every book needs to be written in the same style. Some authors tell an a-to-b story, and some obfuscate information and chronology to tell the same events in different fashion. Neither is necessarily better than the other.

we're not talking about how the story is told

which souls games fail at anyway, lol. read item descriptions, then go watch a youtuber gas on about the Darkguy Bloodgore lore for 3 hours. masterful

viewmaster_pi posted...

we're not talking about how the story is told

Consider my book metaphor a stand in for various elements of video game design, not just the plot.

Agreed, if you say otherwise and used guides lol at arguing otherwise TC is right. Even a vague quest log detailing npc's history and a codex would be enough to lightly track your progress in game.

Fromsoft fanboys are the only ones I know that think having any form of QoL is somehow a detriment to the game. I didn't have a good time using a notebook/notepad when playing old western rpg's when I was a kid and I don't think I would enjoy it now.

apocalyptic_4 posted...

Even a vague quest log detailing npc's history and a codex would be enough to lightly track your progress in game.

even if an NPC just said "hey virg- i mean maidenless, i'm going to the Evilshadow Deadwoods of Endless Scary Blood, maybe i'll see you there" so you at least know the general area to look, i'd be okay with that.

chasing around that priest dude and the goldmask guy was a fucking joke. and then you don't even get his mask!!

hockeybub89 posted...

the story never finishes because you fought an enemy you didn't know ruined the game on defeat.

I get that you're exaggerating to make a point, but tbh this sounds cool to me. Like the idea that people might have wildly different experiences of a game (or any piece of media, but games due to their interactivity make this easier) beased on seemingly small decisions or random chance, I think that's neat. Disco Elysium has a ton of dead ends you can accidentally find yourself in, things as silly as "your character no longer has the motivation to go about their life," and part of the fun is when you turn the game off and learn that someone found something that you had no idea was there.

dancing_cactuar posted...

I like no quest markers since it pollutes the menus and UI less, but some of these NPC questlines would be fucking impossible if you played the game, took a couple week break for whichever reason, and then returned. Perhaps not an outright quest log with direct map markers and shit, but an equivalent of an in-universe corkboard like your own room at the Roundtable Hold (like Gideon) or something where a small list of essential NPCs you've met like Alexander or the Dung Eater are listed with their recent activity, so not explicitly telling you "go here to continue Alexander's story" but enough context from their story that you can extrapolate what's next and it exists so you don't forget where you are along the questline.

Yeah. I would assume no one would be opposed to that, even those who like the approach.

Prestoff posted...

I didn't have a good time using a notebook/notepad when playing old western rpg's when I was a kid and I don't think I would enjoy it now.

I do, though. Puzzling things out on my own, taking notes, to me that's part of the experience no less legitimate than pressing R1.

You're allowed to not like it, but don't dismiss an aspect of the game as though crumpling it up and getting rid of it wouldn't have an impact.

Antifar posted...

Not every game needs to have the same design philosophy, in much the same way that not every book needs to be written in the same style. Some authors tell an a-to-b story, and some obfuscate information and chronology to tell the same events in different fashion. Neither is necessarily better than the other.

No one is asking that. You're warping the the situation here. Witcher for example will have NPCs tell you things like "The next town over I heard there's a ferocious monster", and then you can go there. By default Witcher 3 has waymarks and hunter trails and all the other shit you'd expect from those games, but if you turn all of that off the game just becomes an immersive experience. The game's characters will point you in the right direction and trust you to figure it out on your own.

I don't need a devoted quest log, I just want NPCs to tell me where they're going. Some of them already do this, and those quests are the most enjoyable because I can do them on my own without having to look up a step-by-step guide on how not to let the character die because I progressed the story too fast on accident.

Like, 10% of the NPCs tell you where they're going and what to expect. The map more or less auto-fills, has giant glowing marks showing you where to go, and tiny pinpoints for every single point of interest. The map is practically the same as the skyrim map in functionality, it's just done a better job of feeling immersive since the UI elements on it don't look like UI. But for some reason adding one more pin to the map or having an NPC just say "Hey I'm going to the village of slaughter to slaughter some blood demons" is a step too far for souls fans. Again, despite the fact that a few of the quest lines already do exactly that.

viewmaster_pi posted...

why not, though?

Because this is a role playing game, and in role playing as our insert of the Tarnished, they would most likely not know where Alexander is going next unless he outright says it like when he said he'd be going to the Radahn Festival at Redmane Castle, and saying the next step for several NPC quests like the Ranni one would constitute gameplay spoilers numerous instances for when they refer to secret areas you literally cannot access yet.

On one hand gamers dont go two minutes without shitting on Ubisofts checklist approach to open world game design.

But the second a game doesnt have it? Shove it in.

Intro2Logic posted...

I do, though. Puzzling things out on my own, taking notes, to me that's part of the experience no less legitimate than pressing R1.

that'd be all well and good if they didn't also have certain points that ruin entire questlines because you explored a little too far or killed a certain enemy or NPC without even knowing there was a questline to ruin. that's an illusion of choice in an open world game. sure, sure, take your time, explore as you li-DUDE WHAT THE FUCK, YOU JUST STEPPED ON THE STICK OF TORMENT, WHAT ARE YOU DOINGGGGGGG

Intro2Logic posted...

I do, though. Puzzling things out on my own, taking notes, to me that's part of the experience no less legitimate than pressing R1.

You're allowed to not like it, but don't dismiss an aspect of the game as though crumpling it up and getting rid of it wouldn't have an impact.

More power to you. I don't ever tell a developer how to make their games, they're allowed to do whatever they want. I just like to have discussions. I'm not asking for a wavepoint telling me where to go, just a quest log of all the side quests I accepted. It doesn't even have to explain to me why I "failed" a sidequest, just that I won't waste my time when the person I need to talk to isn't at the original place.

This isn't enough to detriment my love for the game, but I always find something to criticize about a game even if it's a 10/10 for me.

SwayM posted...

On one hand gamers dont go two minutes without shitting on Ubisofts checklist approach to open world game design.

But the second a game doesnt have it? Shove it in.

There are more than two ways to approach world/quest design. FromSoft and Ubisoft existing on the opposite extremes of eachother doesn't mean people are crying for handholdy directed-every-step-of-the-way Ubishit design when they don't like FromSoft's garbage "Oh you didn't go back to that one spot you had absolutely no reason or hint to go back to? Well then miss out on the entirety of this quest line then!"

MarthGoomba posted...

There are more than two ways to approach world/quest design. FromSoft and Ubisoft existing on the opposite extremes of eachother doesn't mean people are crying for handholdy directed-every-step-of-the-way Ubishit design when they don't like FromSoft's garbage "Oh you didn't go back to that one spot you had absolutely no reason or hint to go back to? Well then miss out on the entirety of this quest line then!"

I guarantee that your (anyone reading this) first play through of Elden Ring was the absolute best when you didnt know a single thing about the world or what it contained. Where you were going, what your build was really supposed to be.

Theres a lot of magic in the unknown and figuring it out as you go along.

I dont think you need this as much as you think you do. And imho, its okay to miss things for a game like this.

the big issue with a straight-up quest log is that it might end up being a form of narration or player character narration and that doesn't really go along with the blank slate approach that they want in these games. from here it seems like a roleplay/immersion thing, first and foremost.

that said i think there are other ways -- the map markers they added are one. i think the most organic way of going about it would be including some character quote in the item description of the thing that the quest character last gave you.

but the thing i really wanna complain about is no autorun. i've put a lot of time into souls games and i've never had my thumb get sore before, because the other ones are paced geographically in such a way where sometimes you take elevators or drop off of things. you can let go of the stick. a big part of this game is running by things on torrent so you can get into legacy content and then run by things on foot.

I've got the platinum for ER and absolutely love the game.
Most styles of quest log wouldn't feel right, but it needs something.

Honestly I would prefer if the player character kept a journal.
"I met a tall wolf man today named Blaidd. He mentioned a Master that he serves and that he would meet me at X place."

Something along those lines. Don't have an omniscient narrator of any sort, just the player character noting things down.

Eh, every quest is optional so its not like you miss out on anything if you dont do the quest.

I think with souls games a lot of the fun is the community coming together to piece together the quests and the lore.

I think adding waypoints and stuff kinda kill that for the game. I think adding the markers for NPCs is a good middle ground for them to do.

I dont mind a game that lets you play the game how you want and isn't afraid to let you fuck up.

I4NRulez posted...

Eh, every quest is optional so its not like you miss out on anything if you dont do the quest.

uhhh you miss out on whatever the reward is for that quest.

as for what that is, and seeing if it's worth it? well... Check the Wiki

hockeybub89 posted...

I'm going to make a game where the main characters just stop existing without any indication and the story never finishes because you fought an enemy you didn't know ruined the game on defeat. 10/10 "Breath of fresh air in stagnant video game crowd" GOTY guaranteed

But really, if you don't want me to do everything in a game, then get rid of the parts of everything that I shouldn't be doing.

Sounds like Kings Quest to me

Those Sierra games were merciless

I4NRulez posted...

Eh, every quest is optional so its not like you miss out on anything if you dont do the quest.

There are a few questlines that will lock you out of trophies/achievements if you miss them.
One quest line causes you to miss 3+ bosses, at least one zone, the best spirit ash in the game, and a full ending.

The game definitely does not make it clear where to go at times.
Specifically the quest with the guy in the castle on the southeast Peninsula. It never once tells you to go to Revengers Shack, or anything about it. You stumble on it by complete accident.

Same with the Frenzy Flame ending. You get some vague tidbit about it being "under the capitol". There is no shortage of areas under the capitol, and no indication that you should try to reach the bottom of that specific chasm.

I adore the game, but it has issues.

meestermj posted...

Specifically the quest with the guy in the castle on the southeast Peninsula. It never once tells you to go to Revengers Shack, or anything about it. You stumble on it by complete accident.

Hell, you can find the Revenger's Shack without ever talking to the guy at the castle. I killed the guy who attacked me at the shack, moved on, and didn't have a clue there was a connection there until I looked it up later

KanWan posted...

Not sure why youd check the wiki, pretty much all the quests in Elden Ring have the characters tell you where you need to go and what you need to do.

If you forget, thats what the wiki is for.. the game already did its job in that regard lol

people are exaggerating this to some weird degree, maybe theyre the kind of people that are also mad the game doesnt have an easy mode and are going off that steam

Of course you're gonna forget. The quest won't continue for 30 hours and at some point you'll have to just know to backtrack through an area you were in 50 hours ago, and that you shouldn't fight a certain boss or walk too far in the wrong direction.

Since when is it acceptable for a game or any media to require you to consult other material to understand it?

Could a quest log be helpful for folks? Sure, and I wouldn't care if they added one.

However, I also don't think they need to and don't care if they don't. You're not really meant to do everything in one run.

hockeybub89 posted...

Since when is it acceptable for a game or any media to require you to consult other material to understand it?

Protip: you can understand the game just fine without consulting other material.

It's okay for the game to not be perfect, people. Every game could be improved and developers are fallible. Otherwise, no one would have a criticism of any game. "Game direction/not all games are the same" is not a catch-all absolution from flaws.

Like someone said, the game is almost impossible to return to if you take a break

Murphiroth posted...

Could a quest log be helpful for folks? Sure, and I wouldn't care if they added one.

However, I also don't think they need to and don't care if they don't. You're not really meant to do everything in one run.

This gets to the other thing. "If you can't no-life 600 hours into multiple playthroughs (where you still don't know how to complete quests) and eat sleep and breathe Elden Ring, then this isn't the game for you!" When we hate Ubisoft-style games for requiring so much fucking committment.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

GEE, ITS ALMOST LIKE MINOR SIDEQUESTS ARE MINOR SIDEQUESTS. WEIRD. BETTER GET FUCKED UP ABOUT THEM.

They're free to remove sidequests in the future and anything else in game that real gamers shouldn't do or worry about.

dancing_cactuar posted...

Because this is a role playing game, and in role playing as our insert of the Tarnished, they would most likely not know where Alexander is going next unless he outright says it like when he said he'd be going to the Radahn Festival at Redmane Castle, and saying the next step for several NPC quests like the Ranni one would constitute gameplay spoilers numerous instances for when they refer to secret areas you literally cannot access yet.

Does our Tarnished also not know how to write or remember names of people or places that can go in a journal on a menu. Not even a few vague notes?

Could be cool to have custom notes you can pin to the map along with the map markers. Sort of like a handwritten journal/questlog type thing

I really wouldn't want any more direction than that though

Again, you don't have to do everything in the game and your compulsion to do so is a mental illness.

You're free to criticize the game for lack of a quest log but your response to the idea that you're not meant to do everything being "herpaderpa you must have no life if you did multiple playthroughs!" is laughable. as is your "if I don't need to do it take it out!" stance.

Murphiroth posted...

Again, you don't have to do everything in the game and your compulsion to do so is a mental illness.

What the fuck

UnholyMudcrab posted...

What the fuck

Not seeing anything incorrect about that statement, it's something I've struggled with myself. Completionism is 100% a mental illness.