Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Tingle/Eunie/Trevor & Sypha/Crono/Aigis vs. Raiden/Pamela/Gordon

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's going to cost Crono whatever Life costs him. Same with Aigis and Samarecarm, which is probably the bigger issue since that's expensive and I don't think Aigis has a big SP pool.

Mewtwo59 posted...

It's going to cost Crono whatever Life costs him. Same with Aigis and Samarecarm, which is probably the bigger issue since that's expensive and I don't think Aigis has a big SP pool.

Lifeline costs Crono more than what Raise costs him (10 for the record)

If anything evidence would suggest that the MP cost rounds up to Samarecarm since Crono pays Arise MP Cost when he uses Lifeline. But realistically I think just giving him the cost of 15 as seen in lifeline is fair.

Kamekguy posted...

With the sheer amount of revives on the enemy team (Eunie's Ouroboros form having a GROUP revive in addition to the known Crono and Aigis ones), I do think this is likely to go off.

Doesn't Eunie's group revive automatically force the interlink into cooldown? If it does, that's the last thing she's going to want to do, since no interlink = no damage sponge.

And before you say "he's using Cyclone in Lifeline" Cyclone costs 2 MP so the argument for rounding up to the ability he's emulating rather than the ability he's using makes even more sense.

Lopen posted...

Lifeline costs Crono more than what Raise costs him (10 for the record)

If anything evidence would suggest that the MP cost rounds up to Samarecarm since Crono pays Arise MP Cost when he uses Lifeline. But realistically I think just giving him the cost of 15 as seen in lifeline is fair.

Yeah, but Crono isn't using Life in Lifeline. He's using Cyclone. Marle is the only one using a life spell in that one (Life 2/Raise).

Oh yeah, you're right. That's odd, since most of the time it's just the cost of the tech that they're using.

I'd just like everyone to know a lot of discussion was held while I was asleep. I think Gordon is pretty handy here. There's a lot of bookshelves he can grab for cover, blockading entrances which will create bottlenecks for Gordon to shoot into.

Raiden has AR vision which really handy to find people.

I just think the strategy of spamming raise doesn't make much sense, especially when as was discussed, there are limited MP pools. This takes away from firepower, which is pretty bad when you're dealing with Raiden at all.

Kamekguy posted...

I do think Pamela's super dead here -

I agree that a ghost against a Belmont is a bad match up but I'd like to remind you she has two lives. She revives a few turns after being felled the first time. Wouldn't she be able to run to a different floor once the ambushing party leaves? Seems pretty likely to me.

Reference is the wiki.https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/8/4/AABu2zAAEQ30.png

If you're at the point where you're spamming reraise you are delaying the inevitable generally

It's also not sustainable due to MP and needing both alive

If anything Gravity Gun probably disrupts casting a dual tech pretty well by moving one of the participants away

I'm not buying the Gravity Gun working on anyone here. Gordon needed the Super Gravity Gun to have it work on humans, and it didn't work on the bigger mechanical enemies either. If Kuriboh was a robot, I'd buy it working on him, but that's it.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Chrono Trigger has a literal instance of 'life buffs turn into autolife'.

https://chrono.fandom.com/wiki/Lifeline

okay yeah I def buy reraise

lotta dudes I don't know in this match though

what if Trevor uses Time Stop and takes Raiden's sword

Mewtwo59 posted...

I'm not buying the Gravity Gun working on anyone here. Gordon needed the Super Gravity Gun to have it work on humans, and it didn't work on the bigger mechanical enemies either. If Kuriboh was a robot, I'd buy it working on him, but that's it.

Well sure but Aigis is a robot, and gravity gun can pick up heavy drums of flammable combustible stuff.

I got curious, so I looked up a video. It turns out the wiki is wrong. Lifeline only costs 4 MP on Crono.

https://youtu.be/Gs3jiU63X4g?t=500

Mewtwo59 posted...

I got curious, so I looked up a video. It turns out the wiki is wrong. Lifeline only costs 4 MP on Crono.

It's still more than his base skill used (double it) which is generally used as the start point for dual/triple

So 10 (cost of raise) is the floor. 15 probably still fair.

For the record, both abilities being used are single target yes? I don't see how it becomes a team wide reraise. In fact, they aren't even the abilities being used from CT.

Actually I'm not sure that video doesn't have mp cost reduction accessories on

Like some of the mp costs on other techs seem wrong too. I know Arc Impulse wasn't 1/8/4 for example

Okay, I dug out my old copy of Chrono Trigger to get to the bottom of this, and I can confirm that it's 15/15/3 with no MP cost reducing accessories.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Okay, I dug out my old copy of Chrono Trigger to get to the bottom of this, and I can confirm that it's 15/15/3 with no MP cost reducing accessories.

Bless you Mew2, absolute chad

Raiden does NOT solo, he'd be fucked without Gordon. But he does win, yes.

Seriously this match is a close shave, it's like 55-45 for me

Drakeryn posted...

okay yeah I def buy reraise

lotta dudes I don't know in this match though

what if Trevor uses Time Stop and takes Raiden's sword

I feel it'd be difficult to dislodge the Murasama from Raiden's grip even in a timestop, dude is very very strong

Tripping him or blinding him on the other hand is more feasible. Trevor's a dirty fighter and he'll go for cheap shots if he sees the chance.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I feel it'd be difficult to dislodge the Murasama from Raiden's grip even in a timestop, dude is very very strong

Tripping him or blinding him on the other hand is more feasible. Trevor's a dirty fighter and he'll go for cheap shots if he sees the chance.

What if its while Raiden is transferring his blade from his hand to his leg or something?

IIRC he uses the same blade but moves it for different moves

I'm a little confused how Trevor's time stop works to be honest

What does "only affects himself" mean here.

Lopen posted...

I'm a little confused how Trevor's time stop works to be honest

What does "only affects himself" mean here.

It means hes the only person who can move while Time is stopped

I think I buy into pamela surviving gordons ability to create 1 on 1s via terrain manipulation

Gordon Solos

I mean if I think of a Castlevania Clock

"Tripping" isn't really something that exists nor is "disarming"

The other people outright freeze and you can just beat on them and then when time resumes the damage is felt. Actual repositioning and manipulating not so much because time isn't moving for them.

Lopen posted...

I mean if I think of a Castlevania Clock

"Tripping" isn't really something that exists nor is "disarming"

The other people outright freeze and you can just beat on them and then when time resumes the damage is felt. Actual repositioning and manipulating not so much because time isn't moving for them.

Even then, if Raiden is attacking Trevor and Trevor just suddenly disappears, then hes wide open for an attack from the side or behind to do said tripping etc.

Like Trevor could wrap his whip around Raidens ankle or something and when time unfreezes, *yank*

More feasible obviously, the question is if Trevor would have that split second timing. I feel it's a little optimistic to give him that.

Overall...

-I think Raiden is being overhyped as a soloer. I got all no-damage S-ranks on Revengeance at every difficulty level. His AoE is nil outside of immediate melee range. His thing is efficient single target elimination, which is difficult to pull off when two thirds of the enemy team can bring people back up and all of them are midrange combatants. Same for Gordon unless people bunch up for a rocket.
-Raiden IS a raidboss. It's going to be a long, protracted battle trying to bring him down and he's gonna have to run down the other team's MP in turn as well. Neither side is going down easy in this fight.
-Gordon is critical to the opening minutes (yes, minutes -- I said this fight goes long and meant it) of this fight. He's gonna draw someone off to deal with him, possibly two someones, and that's the make or break point. If Raiden can take advantage of the split focus to obliterate everyone else, his team wins. If JC's team manages to hold out until Gordon dies, the 5v1 (sorry Tingle) becomes way too much to overcome.
-I do think it requires two someones to deal with Gordon. Sypha and Aigis could beat him solo, but the thing is that'd take a lot of time and they can't afford that. It's more likely that one of the two plus Crono or Trevor has to peel off. That leaves the other, plus Eunie, plus whoever of the fighting men didn't peel off to check Raiden for a bit.
-Losing Pamela is brutal for this matchup. I think she dies because even if you're a Castlevania disrespecter, the Vampire Killer specializes in slaying undead and put down the reincarnating Dracula. Pam is not Drac. Asking her to survive against Trevor is just infeasible.
-Ouroboros Eunie is key for this matchup. You know all I said about Raiden having no AoE and so on? I would instantly write the enemy team off regardless if they didn't have dozens of illusory copies of themselves clogging up the library, with several of them inflicting debuffs. Some of them are mostly irrelevant -- Raiden is so strong ATK Down doesn't stop him from killing. Some, however, are crippling. If Raiden is slept then the other team gets to swarm Gordon and reapply Limitless Resurrection then restart the fight at leisure, which is absolutely huge. I don't know if this trick works more than once or twice (unless Raiden gets super frustrated and goes Ripper Mode and starts scything through everything), but even one chance to hit Raiden with Luminaire, Heritage Liberator Palladion, Sypha's ice blades and Trevor's pachislot Grand Cross is a huge deal, particularly when they're all boosted by a Power Ring. He's very tough, but he's not 'no-sell that much damage' tough.
-Team JC has experience tackling raidbosses. Eunie comes from a world where massive beasts and overpowered superhumans alike are a thing, Crono's party took on Lavos, Aigis fought Nyx accompanied by frankly worse backup than anyone in this group (again, sorry Tingle), and Sypha and Trevor fought 4v1 against the mighty Dracula in turn. Fighting an enemy who simply exceeds them isn't new. They faced that kind of opposition before and won. Raiden is a bigger challenge than any of them have ever faced, but their allies are also significantly better than anyone else they've ever worked with.

Overall, these factors make me lean towards Team jRPG Party. It's a very long and difficult match, but they have all the intangibles in their favor. Very tricky fight.

Trevor has pretty bonkers reaction times for what its worth. Not Raiden-level but certainly enough to be prepared when time unstops. I mean, Death swipes at him and he does a horizontal spin through a gap in Deaths fingers, while not looking. The swipe is from behind and he effortlessly dodges it.

https://youtu.be/a0LhJY3XRwg&t=106s

timestamp 1:46

... so looking up Pamela's stuff I am real impressed. Kiss 2 Everyone looks like an insanely disruptive attack, and her using Happy Twins to inflict seal on Aigis is a BIG gg, no re.

What's the estimate for teams meeting in this terrain? I buy that Aigis knows that Pamela revives - she's used to tracking ephemeral beings and her ability confirms she's always on the lookout - but if Raiden ends up clashing before that happens, Aigis doesn't really have the luxury of being able to peel off of the frontlines to take Pamela out, given she's the core of reraises keeping the gang in the fight. Also, if there are any feats to a Belmont 100% exorcizing a ghost, that'd be incredibly decisive - I buy Trevor killing Pam just like that, but resurrection... that family has a bad track record with that!

The terrain is definitely big enough the teams arent meeting for a few minutes from the impression I got. Pamela should be long dead before the teams have a chance to meet.

As for exorcism its possible he has a feat like that but Im not a Castlevania expert by any means. Either way, my team has more than enough time to dunk on Pamela twice and bounce back to peak fighting condition.

I slept on it and I think I'm going with Team Belmont and Belnades.

I just don't buy Pamela surviving a pair of Castlevania heroes who get a cheap shot and have time to wait out her reraise.

I give Eunie enough credit that she'll make the attempt to tank Raiden with her Ouroborus and he will definitely get a bunch of debuffs for killing clones the first time. He's Raiden, he is gonna scythe right through all those clones like butter, which is unfortunate for him since they're all traps. Given the debuffs, I think Eunie can hold out while Sypha and (pick one of Trevor/Aigis/Crono) tag team Gordon down. (I personally think Sypha could solo Gordon given enough time but she's much too useful against Raiden to leave her on Gordon for long.)

Then we get into the real raid boss fight which is everyone vs. Raiden. And I think they can do it. It's not an infinite number of raises, and again, Raiden can definitey take probably any three of these fighters solo without too much fuss. But between Sypha freezing him and shoving ice shards into his everything, Trevor using his holy magic and time stop, Luminaire, and Aigis just staying out of range and providing massive amounts of team support with buffs and heals and some raises if needed, and Eunie forcing Raiden to deal with her Ouroborus at least twice... Raiden eventually goes down. I can see each of these characters managing to slow him down or distract him for just long enough that the others get some hits in before he kills them, and they can keep doing it for a long time.

I don't really think Mario would have been a better choice than Gordon fwiw, Gordon is fine here and probably gets 1 or 2 kills early on his own. But the auto-life means they don't stick. (And one of them is Tingle.)

Team Eunie, Pamela is put down incredibly fast with the kind of people she's surrounded by, Trevor in particular demolishes regen and the undead.

I think Aigis is a better gunner and support than Gordon, and the whole team has a ton of quality range. Mostly comes down to Eunie for the big carry, but given how she gets the upper hand against Mobius D (shows personality-wise being able to plan well and fight long-distance against a stronger enemy) and survives multiple N fights (practically Raiden but significantly faster movement), I think she'd arrange to buff her crew and firing squad the two enemies left, with loads of healing so that they win any war of attrition.

The Taion Ouroboros is practically made for crowd control/keepaway too. Flies, debuffs, can make dozens of body doubles, tons of AoE attacks with properties to knock enemies down and evade attacks while doing them, dozens of explosive funnels, etc. If you can't teleport or simply tank through explosions, it's not a fun matchup for melee.

Yeah I think Team Six People has enough survivability to handle this

Team Raiden and Gordon I think are just too much for this matchup

Team Gordon

Oddly enough, I'd probably vote the other way if Pamela wasn't given a 0 second showing of said dual tech. Seeing the tech and being able to slip away does change things (which i consider possible). Giving away your trump card does cause problems.

ZeeksFire posted...

Team Gordon

Oddly enough, I'd probably vote the other way if Pamela wasn't given a 0 second showing of said dual tech. Seeing the tech and being able to slip away does change things (which i consider possible). Giving away your trump card does cause problems.

The tech has fully resolved before the battle starts though, thats how Start of Battle abilities work. Shed have no idea that they have any kind of autorevive on them.

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation of Start of Battles

However I don't know why she'd know it gives reraise so I'm not sure the Trump card is revealed at all

Lopen posted...

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation of Start of Battles

However I don't know why she'd know it gives reraise so I'm not sure the Trump card is revealed at all

I mean, I think the broadest interp should be the suplex and the dual tech are happening simultaneously (through mercs magic) so shes getting backslammed (even if not hurt) while the dual tech would be happening if you buy there being an audience.

But yes youre also correct on the second point. In any event the trump card is kept secret.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

-Unless stated otherwise, characters have access to their full arsenal of abilities and equipment. They may not always work at full power, however (e.g. a petrifying spell may have only a partial hindering effect not seen in gameplay or even fail outright against sufficiently powerful mercenaries). Use your own discretion.

I'd just like people to read this and use discretion - Raiden can really make people become dismembered. Raise might not have a great affect on dismembered foes. Also I think that you could throw in any sort of debuffs from Aigis into this caveat as well!

As a fun fact with dismemberment and Eunie, their Ouroboros forms can specifically regenerate dismembered limbs and also swap to their other form that will retain none of the damage the other had done to them. So if Raiden did manage to cut a limb off, he could be taken pretty off guard by them suddenly turning into a completely different form with all limbs intact that makes explosive shadow clones, then back to sniper put back together.

Think I'll abstain from this one. There's too many question marks and characters that I'm not familiar with.

So I've been thinking for a good, long while for this. And I want to create a cohesive narrative for how I think the battle takes place - I think it's only fair to give it absolute focus, and try to list all of the variables here.

Part 1: Ghost Suplexes

The match starts and Aigis is suplexing Pamela. The argument is that 'Pamela phases through the ground because ghost'. I do not immediately buy this - I feel the shock of actually being suplexed, regardless of the actual damage it deals, will keep her from auto-phasing through the ground instantly. And if that's the case... Trevor absolutely murders the crap out of her. I do feel that the revive would go through - Pamela would absolutely want to defend her suicidal friend Kuriboh here - if that revive was guaranteed going through. I combed for any evidence of Castlevania protags actually banishing or sealing away undead, and there were a few examples (Soma's magic circles, Charlotte undoing vampirism, etc.). But then there's this.

https://youtu.be/LoQLnVdsBeQ?t=58

... yeah those are just Sypha using magic circles. I think that would constitute Pamela being completely banished, even when the gameplay of her series would ensure her revival. This is probably my biggest sticking point - Pamela's neutralization - as she would be MASSIVE if she came back, sucked up the enemy and healed off of them, and let Raiden run through a buncha enemy raises. That actively swings things for me. But I don't think it happens. Even in situations where I think that Pamela does get through, I don't see her doing the thing necessary - hitting silence on Aigis - in an effective manner with Aigis properly on the backlines and knowing where she is due to monitoring. If a sneak attack were possible, that'd be a whole 'nother thing, but it presently isn't.

Part 2: Infinite Blade (Mode) Works

I absolutely buy that when Raiden is able to hits the enemy, it's with Taion set-up. The revives on Team Crono are crazy - I interpret Limitless Resurrection as "for a limited time, if they get knocked down, they get up again", probably with some kinda turn limit. Even if you interpret it as soft resurrection, that makes anyone - even TINGLE - an effective scout, because he is going to scream really loudly when he dies multiple times.

The thing is... I think that Raiden is absolutely gonna exceed those expectations. Very likely, suicidal Kuriboh is gonna go and find a merciless death, probably sniped by Belnades after she makes a quip about calling it cute. And that Kuriboh took a bullet for Raiden, an emotional bullet he can't possibly repay the little guy for. And if there's one thing that motivates Raiden, it's children with PTSD being horribly abused or dying. Raiden's close-combat speed exceeds anything in Xenoblade 3, and his actual movement speed, while not comparable to stuff like Mio's Ouroboros, is still real good. A similar swordfighter (N) was able to utterly overwhelm three Ouroboros at once, taking them apart piece by piece, and this isn't a form that'll reincarnate on death - this is going to SUCK. I do believe that Body Double can get off some debuffs... but I think it's rather unreliable at doing so due to its randomness element, and I don't think the optimal strategy of 'flood EVERYTHING' is gonna be primed because, quite frankly, Eunie's Ouroboros has the best individual kill move on either side with its giant laser cannon. That is likely gonna be the planned finale, to not exhaust the Ouroboros form before she can get there... and I don't think she does, I think Taion needs every second he can get. This will create a great wall, and there's like a 25% chance a good debuff gets dropped and the fight's basically over... but I see Eunie falling here, I really do. Plus her getting revived and dying repeatedly is probably gonna re-traumatize her.

Part 3: OKAY BUT WHAT DOES EVERYONE ELSE DO

While I think Raiden does eventually cut through Eunie & Taion, the nature of Ouroboros constantly regenerating itself and just how damn dodgy the Taion form is presents a problem: this is an enemy that Raiden can't just cut through and move onto the next with. He HAS to dismember and take his time (well, as much as "Raiden takes his time" can be expected) for this to work. Thus leaves Crono, Aigis, Sypha, Trevor, and Gordon open to take action.

Gordon is pivotal to his team's success here, as his ability to keep the enemy off of Raiden for long enough for Raiden to run out the ouroboros clock is paramount. To see how long Raiden needs, I checked this cutscene:

https://youtu.be/DVuxu3lzyp4

Taion and Eunie here do about four solid attacks/support actions and are horribly torn to pieces twice. This leads me to believe that a dodgy enough Taion CAN stall Raiden... but not for a terribly significant amount of time, maybe two or three exchanges. I would personally give it about 30 seconds of total interaction before Ouroboros would need to overheat if Eunie and Taion are the active battle participants, which is about similar to the Noah/Mio transformation. During this time, Gordon has to ensure that Raiden isn't whomp'd by Luminaire, Grand Cross, any measure of Sypha's magic, or Akasha Arts/Freidyne/big laser blast from Aigis. The important thing is, if Ouroboros is facetanking, Aigis and Crono do NOT have to focus on healing, as all damage is based off of a timer.

And this is where I find the match has its turn: if Raiden could break through the frontline, there's no doubt he goes on to create a pile of corpses that he just continues stabbing when they show signs of life. The issue is, he's a terrible match-up for Eunie, but Eunie is a wall that will refuse to leave him alone until her time is up, and Raiden absolutely goes one at a time for these enemy encounters. Gordon is capable of handling the enemy well - I even buy him grabbing Aigis with the gravity gun as a possibility - but there are potential counters to everything he can do because he ALSO primarily focuses on one target ahead of him at a time. If he gravity guns Aigis, not only can she still cast at him by activating her persona without moving a muscle, but whoever he's not ragdolling her at (say, Crono or Sypha) will get direct hits on him, which he CAN take, but not for longer than Eunie can take Raiden. Same if he goes to snipe someone, Sypha and Trevor are fast enough to close the distance and get into Gordon's face. PLUS, the reraising element will make the whole thing particularly annoying, as Gordon isn't getting definitive kills - when he looks the other way, oh no, Crono came back and hit him with not-really-lightning-more-like-holy-I-guess. Even if you take Pamela to be here, she has to shut down the exact right target while simultaneously avoiding one or two bodies that are open to hit her for damage that she'll actually be hurt by. No one on Team Tingle other than Mr. Fairy-Man himself and some of Trevor's arsenal really has damage that Pamela and Gordon would naturally resist. By the time Eunie's lost her lives, Raiden's on his own and has definitely sustained damage from at least one member of her team (let's say Crono or Trevor, I think they're the most flexible).

(Cont'd)

Part 4: Does Raiden Solo?

... but does that matter? Raiden can certainly take a licking and keep desperately kicking, no matter how torn to pieces he gets in the process. Even taking a potshot or three from time freezing belmont and luminaire, to say that Raiden would be put down before he lets it rip is only possible if he gets REAL unlucky with debuffs. Almost assuredly, he's taking down more guys with him. If no one has anything to stop him in his tracks, that's game.

... but Sypha has Break. And I see temporary petrification, especially on a target who's getting revived, providing a LOT of openings.

The critical weakness to Raiden is being able to end his onslaught - if you're capable of getting room to breathe instead of the guy mauling you mercilessly, there is nary a thing to do about it, he will just keep winning. But having disruption, being able to either endure and counter or somehow stop the pain, that allows for openings. I would normally consider Sypha waaaay too squishy for this strategy, as it's a rather short-range cloud of effect - but Raiden's up close and her team is uniquely built to make sure that this status can get off. And unable to defend himself and already wounded... THIS is where I see Raiden falling. Needing a full stall and multiple party members worth of effort to beat him... but I think he's beatable, even while motivated.

While this is a very long narrative, I wanted to lay everything out, out of respect for both teams. Both have very strong merits and bring a lot to the table - an endless bag of tricks versus utterly overwhelming force that's been allowed to thrive. I wanted to judge this, not just by raw statistical powers and feelings, but how I felt every merc would be able to cooperate, feel, and contribute at every step of every encounter, while also considering the permutations. Please, accept this decision in the spirit of that.

Tingle Tingle, Kooloo-Limpah.

Kamek, the only earth magic Sypha uses in any game is Jagged earth, all of her other magics is fire/ice/lightning. The only time petrification has been used in relations to Sypha, it's been on the other end, being petrified. Also, kuriboh is not at the scene, and there is no point where it says that there is any sort of disorientation or the like. Sure it gives away could be ghost, but there's some serious flaws in your huge argument you posted.

ZeeksFire posted...

Kamek, the only earth magic Sypha uses in any game is Jagged earth, all of her other magics is fire/ice/lightning. The only time petrification has been used in relations to Sypha, it's been on the other end, being petrified. Also, kuriboh is not at the scene, and there is no point where it says that there is any sort of disorientation or the like. Sure it gives away could be ghost, but there's some serious flaws in your huge argument you posted.

https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Fake_Sypha

Sypha Belnades is as she appears in the Castlevania Netflix anime. She has access to all techniques shown by Fake Sypha in Portrait of Ruin, as well as all her attacks and abilities from Castlevania Judgement, though she may only revive Trevor.

Believe it or not, the admin team does, in fact, know the mercs they made. PoR Fake Sypha has access to petrification.

I wouldn't expect Sypha to go to fake Sypha techs in any case before trying traditional stuff especially since she has an immobilizing ice spell in Castlevania 3. Kind of a weird thing to tack onto the build imo.

The tacking on was to give further support to Trevor directly (since Fake Sypha is very directly in service to supporting Fake Trevor), plus to give her SOMETHING from an in-game appearance, not to mention the fakes being based off the souls of the originals. It felt like a natural extension to me for more utility and fit their actual dynamic well.

I... don't understand the gaps in the Kuriboh logic, though? Pamela likes cute things, it's horribly depressed, it's gonna wander out and get killed, and I dramatized a bit for the sake of a better narrative? And I also assumed that getting unexpectedly suplexed was surprising? Like however I can smooth it out, lemme know, but I thought I covered stuff fairly thoroughly.

I found that spell finally, although the viability of break seems suspect, seeing the standard fighting style of sypha i feel that it was named poorly and would not be the go to move, but fair enough on that, apologies for missing it, but arguing that someone is willing to be willing to fight in an very unoptimal way (being in a 6v1 and having the ability to retreat while not having any morale effecting abilities changing their actions) is something I disagree with on Pamela.

-The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of executing a prearranged battle plan.

I would consider being in a 6v1 and not being mentally disturbed being vastly not ideal, and retreat is the optimal reaction, where neither team knows their opponents until fighting, would anyone immediately want to alpha strike the 1. I can easily see coup-de-grace actions set up, but everyone has the same time frame to work with and i'd consider movement faster than attacks.

Oh I do agree with you. I just think the shock of being suplexed by something that should not be able to suplex you against the guy with the magic glowy whip that can freeze time to hit you with said magic glowy whip (which I do think affects Pamela due to the magic damage it would inflict, rather than the whip actually hitting her) that explicitly hurts the undead real bad hurts a lot.

I agree it's the proper strategy, I just don't think Pamela's in a good space to use it, and am taking Castlevania's precedent of banishing/sealing away the undead over Pamela's gameplay function of revival (which is totally on me and my interpretation, but I don't think there's a definitive sway on which a person should necessarily take as 'correct' in that instance).