Board 8 > Tekken Mafia Topic 2 - Get ready for the next battle!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Peace___Frog posted...

I interpret that as Kirby saying not that you necessarily gained town equity, but that you hadn't gained any scum equity in his book. And for that reason he was giving you some town equity.

But I'm willing to reevaluate my read, sure. I'll have plenty of time to reread topic 1 tomorrow afternoon when I'm getting my hair done.

I think it was too early for me to give him any scum equity considering his reasons he gave for what a "typical scum tell" was were very specific and based on circumstances that didnt happen immediately in those other games. But he went on my defense in this one pretty immediately.

PunishedBen posted...

What's an example of a typical scum tell?

Kirby321 posted...

Honestly, I couldn't tell you. Call it raw intuition lol

Like in Paper Mario Mafia when at the start of the day you felt the need to justify your absence at the previous EoD despite literally nobody asking was a red flag for me. And then when you made JC claim but then refused to claim yourself, that absolutely sold me that you were scum.

There are just some posts that you make in a certain way that make me think "This is totally scum Ben" when I read them. So far, you haven't made any posts like that yet.

##unvote
It'sbad when I fall asleep on my phone while catching up. I'm gonna need a fresh reread, since I'm having problems seeing conclusions other people are drawing to throw out their accusations.

Prior player meta is what's causing my current suspicions (and a reason I'm unvoting Peaf, save for me not liking to leave them up overnight, which is, for now, an antisuspicion.)

As for flavor meta, Lealea is a bit on the nose, isn't it?

PunishedBen posted...

But also I dont feel I deserved such an early town read from you given that I have been very withholdy and lazy so far this game. Like I get the idea of "No scum tells", but was I really posting enough to be giving any tells either? I certainly dont feel I did enough to warrant a defense, so unless you can read me better than I can read myself I think there is something fishy going on and you have positioned yourself to get on my good side coming into this game.

Bro I literally said in that post you quoted that it wasn't a strong town read. I said you were town-ish, and that's true. I was getting some vibes of your town persona when you decided to townclear Lea so early on (and maybe Red, too? I forget what else you did around that time), but nothing extremely strong. Like I said, you didn't really do much to ping my scumdar, so I put you in the "neutral but slight town lean" pile.

PunishedBen posted...

And you didnt seem to be bothered that i ignored this

I forgot I even asked you that tbh. I asked that... like, what, earlier this afternoon? Don't think you posted anything since then until evening my time. If you had been more active around that time, perhaps I would've been bothered, but, like, so much happened afterward that I'm really not sure what kind of "gotcha" you're expecting to have here.

PunishedBen posted...

I think it was too early for me to give him any scum equity considering his reasons he gave for what a "typical scum tell" was were very specific and based on circumstances that didnt happen immediately in those other games. But he went on my defense in this one pretty immediately.

I think you're overexaggerating how much I've "defended" you. I "defended" you against Lopen because I didn't quite understand his vote and where it came from. I also mentioned that you replaced in to Star Trek Mafia late as "defense". But... that's it, I'm pretty sure. Don't think I've really talked much about you this game, so you seem to be drawing a hefty conclusion off of just a few data points.

OMGUS is likely getting in the way here, but I can't tell if you're confidently incorrect town or just scum trying to get the drop on me before I could make a solid read on you.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Well it did make me raise my eyebrow. But IIRC you and Peaf already commented on it, so I didn't have anything new to add, really. By the time I saw that post from Death, anyway, I was already doing catch-up leading up to me yelling at Sbell for his whole stint with Ulti.

I do want to point out (since you were poking fun at me using this term) that me saying "raw intuition" was a bit of a subtle joke that only Ben and other FFXIV players would get. "Raw Intuition" is the name of a skill for Warriors in FFXIV, which is also the class that Ben mains. But really, it was just me saying, "I don't how I pick up on your scum behavior; it just happens." Pretty sure I said as much in the Paper Mario afterparty when Ben was grumbling about still not being able to figure out how to slip past me as scum lol

---

I promise I've been trying to do less walls, but what else am I to do when I see back-to-back messages pointing the finger at me. May as well address them in one post. I only hope this one is at least easy to read.

Kirby321 posted...

Bro I literally said in that post you quoted that it wasn't a strong town read. I said you were town-ish, and that's true. I was getting some vibes of your town persona when you decided to townclear Lea so early on (and maybe Red, too? I forget what else you did around that time), but nothing extremely strong. Like I said, you didn't really do much to ping my scumdar, so I put you in the "neutral but slight town lean" pile.

I forgot I even asked you that tbh. I asked that... like, what, earlier this afternoon? Don't think you posted anything since then until evening my time. If you had been more active around that time, perhaps I would've been bothered, but, like, so much happened afterward that I'm really not sure what kind of "gotcha" you're expecting to have here.

I think you're overexaggerating how much I've "defended" you. I "defended" you against Lopen because I didn't quite understand his vote and where it came from. I also mentioned that you replaced in to Star Trek Mafia late as "defense". But... that's it, I'm pretty sure. Don't think I've really talked much about you this game, so you seem to be drawing a hefty conclusion off of just a few data points.

OMGUS is likely getting in the way here, but I can't tell if you're confidently incorrect town or just scum trying to get the drop on me before I could make a solid read on you.

Well it did make me raise my eyebrow. But IIRC you and Peaf already commented on it, so I didn't have anything new to add, really. By the time I saw that post from Death, anyway, I was already doing catch-up leading up to me yelling at Sbell for his whole stint with Ulti.

I do want to point out (since you were poking fun at me using this term) that me saying "raw intuition" was a bit of a subtle joke that only Ben and other FFXIV players would get. "Raw Intuition" is the name of a skill for Warriors in FFXIV, which is also the class that Ben mains. But really, it was just me saying, "I don't how I pick up on your scum behavior; it just happens." Pretty sure I said as much in the Paper Mario afterparty when Ben was grumbling about still not being able to figure out how to slip past me as scum lol

---

I promise I've been trying to do less walls, but what else am I to do when I see back-to-back messages pointing the finger at me. May as well address them in one post. I only hope this one is at least easy to read.

Tldr

Corrik!

Anything you want to say or add?

Fine dont talk to me, I will talk to myself then.

I have liked Kirby for being a mediator so far, but it was pointed out that this behavior is a nultell overall.
Plus honestly Kirby sounds so much like me at times (the way he phrases stuff) its eerie.
Either way I kinda sorta follow his logic about Ben. But following that does lead me to the question:
Kirby, has Ben done anything to ping your radar now?

Back to Plum, I liked his one burst of content about IGCD. But I am gonna need more from him to get a good feeling about him. Especially since that burst was probably still self-motivated.

Uggg, if Kirby rode his high horse in here as scum that's just dirty pool.

Anyway, hey Death, do you have any actual scum ready at the moment? Seems like all your reads are hummin and hawwin.

reads*

Hey Sbell
I will confess I dont have superstrong suspicions
I suspected you for a bit yesterday but you improved since then.
I dont like Plum and Corrik but thats more due to their general behavior and less because I have a scumread on them. (and also they dont leave me much to go on)
Isquen was also on my radar but he claims to be busy which muddles the water again.

There's a lot of blind areas, but I plan to fix those as soon as I have the time.

"Your host however does know Tekken references" votals:
[3] Ulti - MZero, SBell, (Lopen), Kirby, (Abacus), (Lopen)
[2] Plum - IGCD, Lopen
[2] Kirby - Ben, Lea
[1] Ben - Red, (Lopen), (Ulti)
[1] Lea - (Ulti), Corrik
[1] Wallz - Peaf, (Lea), (Lopen)
[1] Corrik - Abacus, (Ulti)
[1] Lopen - Plum
[0] SBell - (Ben), (Ulti), (IGCD)
[0] Lopen - (Ulti), (Ulti)
[0] Peaf - (Isquen)

Day ends in a little less than 13 hours from now.

htaeD posted...

Corrik!

Anything you want to say or add?

I think Corrik has been minimalizing his posts lately to make him harder to read which is amusing. Seems like something I would have done years ago. I think its a null tell.

Having said that I think he has a point. That was an extremely robust defense by Kirby. I dont recall town Kirby being that defensive before (could be wrong) it made me raise an eyebrow but perhaps I dont remember situations where town Kirby being under attack and he acted similarly?

Corrik had a point?

Also robust is usually a positive descriptor.

But yes Kirby tended to be verbose in the past as town (or scum? I dont remember if he did it as scum as well).

Yesterday was the busiest day irl Ive had since I started playing mafia here, but its mostly good stuff (might be getting a promotion in a couple weeks so Im trying to crush it extra hard in case theres any hopes of tipping the scales). Now its time for homework

I really dislike all the sbell/Ulti work stuff, but from looking at the game as a whole and not basing reads on what feels nice or mean I do think sbell is town and ulti is scum. Having just been scum with sbell last game, I dont sense a lot of similarity there. The biggest argument against sbell imo is the so called perspective slip but Ill be shocked if were dealing with just a 3 person scum team in a 17 person game.

I think plum might be scum. Hes said arguing about ulti is pointless because he just does things, you have to wait and see where ultis vote ends up. But havent we seen you cant trust people based on where they put their vote? He also said ulti is town (1.210) and defended ulti in 2.011, and it adds up to a large percentage of his content defending ulti. Im not faulting anyone for being undecided on ulti at this point but calling him town and defending him so much in tandem are the main reasoning I lean scum on plum.

Initially I thought Ben might be scum but as of t2 he feels just how I would expect from town Ben based on my limited sample size. Ive been leaning town on Kirby all game but Im not sold on that read and Im curious to see how Bens suspicion plays out. If I had to guess theres probably zero or one scum here.

Abacus - I agree with abacus wanting more Corrik even though abacus has barely posted more than Corrik. Would also like to see more from Isquen who has basically done nothing more than post his flowchart and pop up to vote for Peaf.

I will share thoughts on everyone I didnt get around to later if anyone is interested but its a couple minutes after 8 here and I need to get to work

wallmasterz posted...

I think plum might be scum. Hes said arguing about ulti is pointless because he just does things, you have to wait and see where ultis vote ends up. But havent we seen you cant trust people based on where they put their vote?

What

I wouldnt mind seeing a little more in terms of reads and game solving from MZero as well, but if memory serves MZero has been a little more involved than the rest of the too little content to have much of an opinion crew of abacus, Corrik and isquen

masterplum posted...

What

lol. Are you denying you ever said this or saying you should trust people based on their vote?

wallmasterz posted...

lol. Are you denying you ever said this or saying you should trust people based on their vote?

How do you think you figure out who mafia are?

Yes you look at where people put their votes but you also cant just rely on that. You essentially said ignore what ulti is saying in determining his alignment and look at where he puts his vote. If ulti voted for someone today and they end up flipping scum, we are just supposed to exonerate Ulti? I dont like this

Yes I think we can all agree that Sbell came to a cross roads , a path of righteousness and a path far less forgiving. They both ended up re-merging with each other on the other side of the woods but the trails were very different from each other. SBell did not choose the enlightened path. Lopen and Lea did, they tried calling to him from the wood to find his way back, alas, he was too stuck in his ways and couldn't hear them.

It should be noted Ulti did a bang up job of avoiding the true accusation though.

wallmasterz posted...

Yes you look at where people put their votes but you also cant just rely on that. You essentially said ignore what ulti is saying in determining his alignment and look at where he puts his vote. If ulti voted for someone today and they end up flipping scum, we are just supposed to exonerate Ulti? I dont like this

I mean this in the kindest possible way.

You have not played nearly enough mafia to have any idea what you are talking about

As someone who town clears too early as scum I feel like I should get Ben's kirby attack more than I do.

masterplum posted...

I mean this in the kindest possible way.

You have not played nearly enough mafia to have any idea what you are talking about

You never even answered my question. It sounds like youre not arguing you never said it, and youre doubling down on what you said.

Enlighten me then. Theres no need to get bent out of shape, I havent voted for you (at least not yet)

htaeD posted...

Hey Sbell
I will confess I dont have superstrong suspicions
I suspected you for a bit yesterday but you improved since then.
I dont like Plum and Corrik but thats more due to their general behavior and less because I have a scumread on them. (and also they dont leave me much to go on)
Isquen was also on my radar but he claims to be busy which muddles the water again.

There's a lot of blind areas, but I plan to fix those as soon as I have the time.

Approaching end of Day 1 Death. You don't have a single scum read. Not leaving your brainbuddy with good feels.

Im not shy about the fact I am new to the game and dont have a lot of experience, but bringing that up (however nicely!) doesnt really come across as answering my question in good faith, it comes across as defensive

Sbell is talking in the third person again, clearly scum

Obellisk posted...

Approaching end of Day 1 Death. You don't have a single scum read. Not leaving your brainbuddy with good feels.

I consider Plum and Corrik scumreads, just not for the usual reasons.
And I still have time Sbell, just let me finish my own work as well.

wallmasterz posted...

You never even answered my question. It sounds like youre not arguing you never said it, and youre doubling down on what you said.

Enlighten me then. Theres no need to get bent out of shape, I havent voted for you (at least not yet)

Oh I dont care if you vote me or not. Ive just tried to go over this a dozen times and people usually are too dense to piece it together. Ill give you the quick version.

People experienced at being scum are usually pretty good at acting the same way as they do when they are town. The difference is they know who their scum team is and that affects their votes. Sometimes this makes scum think their teammates are more obvious than they are so they vote them for slips that arent apparent. Sometimes they ignore them entirely.

But everything up to the vote is near meaningless. Town changes their mind more often than scum does, so basically everything Ulti said was nearly worthless. The interesting part is where his vote comes down at the end of the day and does it matchup with what he said.

People are terrible at mafia. Just full stop. I am not excluded from this. I would hope last game where everyone shot town proved that to you.

The reason I mostly have stepped away from mafia outside of replacing in after stuff has happened is Ive grown tired of people thinking they are the special snowflake who definitely knows who scum is this game. It happens every game over the last 15 years.

But of course me saying that Im not going to bother investing a lot of effort because I know there isnt enough information yet makes people think Im scummy. Its morbidly hilarious.

htaeD posted...

Sbell is talking in the third person again, clearly scum

I consider Plum and Corrik scumreads, just not for the usual reasons.
And I still have time Sbell, just let me finish my own work as well.

There is no evidence that Corrik is scum

I will say I find your assessments to be more pessimistic than mafia really is, Plum.

That may just be a difference in how we see and play the game, but I think there's more to it than where the votes drop.
Interactions always matter and should always be mined for information.

masterplum posted...

There is no evidence that Corrik is scum

No evidence that he is town either.

Also interesting that you arent saying the same thing about you.

Or in other words wall

<img src="//:0"><img src="//:0"><img src="//:0"><img src="//:0"><img src="//:0">https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/9/0/AANz_VAAEViW.jpg

Disgusting

htaeD posted...

Also interesting that you arent saying the same thing about you.

Because that would be a dumb thing to say? Would you expect me to say Ah yes! I am very scummy!

htaeD posted...

No evidence that he is town either.

Oh, missed this post.

Also correct

Is plum just saying he's scum and if he's lynched its for the wrong reason?

Plum, was it something other than his actions that caused you to vote for Lopen?

I dont think he is trying to, but thats what it sounds like.

masterplum posted...

Because that would be a dumb thing to say? Would you expect me to say Ah yes! I am very scummy!

I expected you to say the evidence against you is "utter nonsense" or something like that.

wallmasterz posted...

Plum, was it something other than his actions that caused you to vote for Lopen?

His attack on me wasnt in good faith.

This is the one place where you already know the answer. You already know that you are town, therefore you already have that extra information of what the vote means.

Sbell for instance I think is arguing against me in good faith. He is wrong of course, but it doesnt feel like he is on me for illogical reasons. Lopen I think is.

htaeD posted...

I dont think he is trying to, but thats what it sounds like.

I expected you to say the evidence against you is "utter nonsense" or something like that.

I thought that was understood without me making a post about it.

Ok but it sounds a lot like you are assessing peoples d1 actions and the hypothetical motivations behind them though

Not trying to be rude but this is different because reasons?

See I was thinking it would be better to make a post about it if you can debunk nonsense.
Or maybe you already did somewhere.

wallmasterz posted...

Ok but it sounds a lot like you are assessing peoples d1 actions and the hypothetical motivations behind them though

Not trying to be rude but this is different because reasons?

Because I already know the outcome of a vote on me. The same way where after a lynch D1 suddenly you have all sorts of info. This person killed town/scum. Why? When did they commit to that? Was that person getting lynched without their help?

But those are all questions that cant be answered until you have a flip proving someone was town or scum.

If someone is voting you then you already know the flip

masterplum posted...

The reason I mostly have stepped away from mafia outside of replacing in after stuff has happened is Ive grown tired of people thinking they are the special snowflake who definitely knows who scum is this game. It happens every game over the last 15 years.

So clearly, Plum, you'd be a big proponent of No Lynching on Day 1 since no one can be truly sure about anything without investigative night actions?

htaeD posted...

See I was thinking it would be better to make a post about it if you can debunk nonsense.
Or maybe you already did somewhere.

Why?

The votes are bad. Ulti just voted me for thinking I was caught. Do I need to post the inconceivable meme? How would that change anything? If anything me arguing taints him would just make him double down and be more sure that he should kill me because thats how people react when their beliefs are directly confronted

masterplum posted...

The votes are bad. Ulti just voted me for thinking I was caught. Do I need to post the inconceivable meme? How would that change anything? If anything me arguing taints him would just make him double down and be more sure that he should kill me because thats how people react when their beliefs are directly confronted

heh heh, he said taint.

Obellisk posted...

So clearly, Plum, you'd be a big proponent of No Lynching on Day 1 since no one can be truly sure about anything without investigative night actions?

Ive been trying to do that for years now!

I think argument is good to give someone a chance to slip up terribly and get their opinions on record, but I think you should NL Day 1 80% of the time or so.

Even if you dont get a scan, the night kill gives info