Current Events > I'm extremely upset by this Target Pride Month backlash

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Do you realize there's a difference between words and physical violence?

I know that you do, but are you willing to admit it?

Physical violence...like death and bomb threats? People say they're gonna do it, so do you wait until someone blows up a target or runs through massacring people before you do something about it?

ooger posted...

Do you realize that the GOP is inciting physical violence?

Yes. But I'm not referring to the GOP, I'm referring to Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling. They're not inciting violence.

Gwynevere posted...

Physical violence...like death and bomb threats? People say they're gonna do it, so do you wait until someone blows up a target or runs through massacring people before you do something about it?

Did Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling make bomb threats, or encourage them to be made?

Raikuro posted...

What if we can't outbreed the chuckleheads tho

Chuckleheads are made, not born. Generations move incrementally forward towards progress; it's always been that way. There have always been progressive elements in society, even when they were vastly outnumbered. And now they're finally starting to outnumber the ones who choose the chucklehead path.

All that said, the damage being done now is serious and older people who haven't stuck with chucklehead mode have a responsibility to help younger folk realize their better world.

Villain_S_Fiend posted...

Generations move incrementally forward towards progress; it's always been that way.

It has not always been this way. There was a generation in the south that saw relative equality between the civil war and the imposition of Jim Crow. Progress isn't an inevitable force of nature, it has to be fought for

Villain_S_Fiend posted...

Chuckleheads are made, not born. Generations move incrementally forward towards progress; it's always been that way. There have always been progressive elements in society, even when they were vastly outnumbered. And now they're finally starting to outnumber the ones who choose the chucklehead path.

All that said, the damage being done now is serious and older people who haven't stuck with chucklehead mode have a responsibility to help younger folk realize their better world.

We aren't moving incrementally towards progress. Someone saw the progress, obliterated it with a hammer, and sent the pieces back in time in a trash bag.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Did Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling make bomb threats, or encourage them to be made?

Doesn't matter, the type of rhetoric that they (especially Rowling) and others push is what leads to outcomes like this. This type of behavior doesn't appear from the ether, and we don't live in a vacuum.

Antifar posted...

It has not always been this way. There was a generation in the south that saw relative equality between the civil war and the imposition of Jim Crow. Progress isn't an inevitable force of nature, it has to be fought for

You're absolutely right that it's always a fight, but it has always been that way. If not, then we wouldn't have gotten as far as we have (not that it hasn't been painfully slow). A generation in the south is not a generation nationwide.

My point is that there have always been people fighting, and that there are progressively more of them as time goes on. If I thought it was an inevitable force of nature I wouldn't bother talking about responsibility.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I realized that it's not worth arguing the same point over again if you're going to do the same thing you did last time.

What, cut through the bullshit and point out what everybody knows you're actually saying?

In right-wing fantasyland, everything must take place in a vacuum. People of influence spewing nonstop violent hatred towards marginalized people cannot possibly have anything to do with acts of violence being committed against those marginalized people.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Yes. But I'm not referring to the GOP, I'm referring to Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling. They're not inciting violence.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Did Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling make bomb threats, or encourage them to be made?

They're extremely prolific and influential public figures who are emboldening and validating transphobes, telling them that their hatred is the morally correct option.

So, yes, they are VERY actively inciting and encouraging violence and other more directly threatening actions such as bomb threats and showing up to drag shows with guns. Just because they're not personally participating in violence doesn't mean they aren't motivating others to do so with their words.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Did Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling make bomb threats, or encourage them to be made?

they both absolutely have emboldened and encouraged hateful people that have gone on to bully harass assault and kill trans people

JK wrote a story about a transgender murderer.

C'mon bro.

TMOG posted...

They're extremely prolific and influential public figures who are emboldening and validating transphobes, telling them that their hatred is the morally correct option.

So, yes, they are VERY actively inciting and encouraging violence and other more directly threatening actions such as bomb threats and showing up to drag shows with guns. Just because they're not personally participating in violence doesn't mean they aren't motivating others to do so with their words.

Conservative narratives rely on denying the existence of stochastic terrorism, while simultaneously relying on it being an effective tool.

SaikyoStyle posted...

In right-wing fantasyland, everything must take place in a vacuum. People of influence spewing nonstop violent hatred towards marginalized people cannot possibly have anything to do with acts of violence being committed against those marginalized people.

I'm pretty sure the reason for this is that people on the right view stuff like homophobia and transphobia as the default, common sense positions. It makes the most sense to them that people come to these conclusions on their own, rather than being influenced into them by the words of public figures. But there are those who know how effective this influence is, and purposely try to obfuscate that fact.

I'm personally interested to hear Gob's thoughts regarding Trump's involvement and responsibility for the 1/6 terror attack, considering Trump wasn't rioting and trying to kill Mike Pence, Nancy Pelosi, and others in the building himself, he just encouraged others to do it instead.

ooger posted...

JK wrote a story about a transgender murderer.

C'mon bro.

I mean on one hand Buffalo Bill already existed for decades before Rowling's most likely shitty book but Silence of the Lambs both book and movie are still considered kino, on the other Lambs is also about the mind games between Hannibal and Clarice, not to mention the way the murderer is written that's most likely the issue at hand here and Rowling undoubtedly is a worse writer than Ted Tally or Thomas Harris, depending on if you're looking at the book or movie.

TMOG posted...

What, cut through the bullshit and point out what everybody knows you're actually saying?

No.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

No.

Ah, so you've reached the point where you just give one-word "responses" because you know you've been caught out and everybody can see you for exactly what you are.

Ok, so if it's not just "cutting through the bullshit", then what am I doing that I did last time?

ooger posted...

JK wrote a story about a transgender murderer.

C'mon bro.

Did she? I thought it was a guy who disguised himself as a woman to make kidnapping easier.

(Not denying Rowling is transphobic, just saying that the character wasn't trans).

Val McDermid's 'The Mermaids Singing'? Now that does have a trans murderer.

ai123 posted...

Did she? I thought it was a guy who disguised himself as a woman to make kidnapping easier.

(Not denying Rowling is transphobic, just saying that the character wasn't trans).

That's literally how Rowling views trans people though. She doesn't think there's a distinction between trans women and men dressing as women.

ai123 posted...

Did she? I thought it was a guy who disguised himself as a woman to make kidnapping easier.

Now go look at how she describes trans women on Twitter and in interviews.

dancing_cactuar posted...

mean on one hand Buffalo Bill already existed

Cross-dressing does not make someone trans.

DrizztLink posted...

Cross-dressing does not make someone trans.

Bill applied multiple times for gender reassignment surgery, that's one step further than just cross dressing like Divine.

TMOG posted...

Now go look at how she describes trans women on Twitter and in interviews.

Not denying she is transphobic.

Not denying that the character was a nasty attempt to provoke.

dancing_cactuar posted...

Bill applied multiple times for gender reassignment surgery, that's one step further than just cross dressing like Divine.

Jonathan Demme has apologized several times in the past for not making it clearer that BB was explicitly not trans.

He was going for the reference to the Death's Head moth and Bill's delusion that metamorphosis would change him, but it instead came across incorrectly.

My gay friends who loved Silence of the Lambs, including my friend Juan Botas, who was one of the inspirations for Philadelphia, said, You cant imagine what its like to be a 12-year-old gay kid, and you go to the movies all the time and whenever you see a gay character, theyre either a ridiculous comic-relief caricature, or a demented killer. Its very hard growing up gay and being exposed to all these stereotypes. That registered with me in a big way.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Nah, his track record since then establishes that he simply shifted from "outright supporter" to "bad concern troll".

DrizztLink posted...

Jonathan Demme has apologized several times in the past for not making it clearer that BB was explicitly not trans.

He was going for the reference to the Death's Head moth and Bill's delusion that metamorphosis would change him, but it instead came across incorrectly.

That's some good symbolism on the moth part especially when you consider the woman suit thing Bill was crafting, but I'd also like a similar receipt from the author on the original book the movie was adapted on before changing my mind. I'll all too willingly hold an L on my part if Thomas Harris said something similar, though.

dancing_cactuar posted...

That's some good symbolism on the moth part especially when you consider the woman suit thing Bill was crafting, but I'd also like a similar receipt from the author on the original book the movie was adapted on before changing my mind. I'll all too willingly hold an L on my part if Thomas Harris said something similar, though.

Harris made the same distinctions, in that reassignment surgery was sought and denied due to Gumb's lack of "true dysphoria" for lack of a better term.

It's a LOT harder to find stuff where Harris actually talks about it, the film overshadows the novel very thoroughly, but I can keep looking.

progress is being made. this backlash is fucking terrible, but if we keep at it things will keep changing for the better.

when i was in highschool, the "gay-straight-alliance" club was threatened with immediate, physical violence and a school-wide protest. that was people born 1982-1987.

100% that would never happen with 14-19 year olds today.

bigotry and prejudice make zero sense, and bigots are increasingly unable to brainwash the younger generations.

Pretty sure Buffalo Bill is stated to be explictly not transgender in both the book and movie.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Yes. But I'm not referring to the GOP, I'm referring to Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling. They're not inciting violence.

At the same time, the threat of rightwing terrorism has been exacerbated by the normalizing of political violence, or violent rhetoric, by elected officials and media personalities. Prominent figures can provide a gateway for people to commit violence when they demonize immigrants, the LGBTQ+ community, or indulge conspiracies like the great replacement theory, Jensen said.

They get this disinformation and conspiracy theories that are a bit more watered down: does not make calls to violence, but they provide the mechanisms for people to follow that narrative to the places where they will encounter that rhetoric.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/28/lone-wolf-far-right-terror-attack-warning

TMOG posted...

what am I doing that I did last time?

Making me realize how pointless it is to try to have a civil discussion with you, lol

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Making me realize how pointless it is to try to have a civil discussion with you, lol

I have no interest in being civil with a concern troll who wants trans people to just shut up and get genocided.

DrizztLink posted...

Harris made the same distinctions, in that reassignment surgery was sought and denied due to Gumb's lack of "true dysphoria" for lack of a better term.

It's a LOT harder to find stuff where Harris actually talks about it, the film overshadows the novel very thoroughly, but I can keep looking.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Pretty sure Buffalo Bill is stated to be explictly not transgender in both the book and movie.

Aight, like I said, willing to admit I'm wrong if true. Though going a bit back to my original point about Rowling writing in a trans killer, given how she's a TERF she'd probably also be in the mindset of writing a character akin to Bill (deranged cross dresser murderer) only way lamer since she's nowhere near a good writer as Harris. Though for the record, I don't particularly mind if you got a trans antagonist to your story or something since trans people are just people, and evil can exist within any individual (like how Dahmer was gay, yet was merely a singular sick fuck not reflective of the LGBT community in any way, shape, or form), you just gotta do it right so it doesn't come across as stereotypical or like you're actively spiteful.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Pretty sure Buffalo Bill is stated to be explictly not transgender in both the book and movie.

That doesnt negate the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes tho

dancing_cactuar posted...

Aight, like I said, willing to admit I'm wrong if true. Though going a bit back to my original point about Rowling writing in a trans killer, given how she's a TERF she'd probably also be in the mindset of writing a character akin to Bill (deranged cross dresser murderer) only way lamer since she's nowhere near a good writer as Harris. Though for the record, I don't particularly mind if you got a trans antagonist to your story or something since trans people are just people, and evil can exist within any individual (like how Dahmer was gay, yet was merely a singular sick fuck not reflective of the LGBT community in any way, shape, or form), you just gotta do it right so it doesn't come across as stereotypical or like you're actively spiteful.

The problem is when those type of harmful depictions are disproportionate to positive representation and public sentiment surrounding acceptance.

TMOG posted...

I have no interest in being civil

I know. That's why we're not arguing anymore.

dancing_cactuar posted...

Though going a bit back to my original point about Rowling writing in a trans killer, given how she's a TERF she'd probably also be in the mindset of writing a character akin to Bill (deranged cross dresser murderer)

Oh yeah, she definitely doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, that is 100% her unfiltered opinion.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I know. That's why we're not arguing anymore.

"Well, this isn't going my way and everybody sees through me. Better back out in a way that still allows me to pretend somebody else is at fault."

SaikyoStyle posted...

In right-wing fantasyland, everything must take place in a vacuum. People of influence spewing nonstop violent hatred towards marginalized people cannot possibly have anything to do with acts of violence being committed against those marginalized people.

Example.

>Trump starts braying "SHYYYYYYY-NA VIRUS!" at every fucking opportunity during Covid, trying desperately to deflect from the fact that his covid response is basically him eating his boogers on national television as the virologists and experts literally facepalm and squirm behind him, knowing every word out of the bloated orange nutsack's mouth will end in more toe tags in the already overworked morgues of the nation.

>violence against Asian Americans spikes dramatically.

>Republicans: "DUUUUUUURRRRR we don't know how dat happened, DUUUUURRRRRRRR. We didn't do nuffin' to cause dat! DUUUUUURRRRRRRR."

It's the same old tired story. Republicans are brave as fuck until confronted on their bullshit. Then suddenly they're pissing like a puppy while playing ignorant.

TMOG posted...

somebody else is at fault

It's you. You're why I'm not discussing this any further. I know how it will go, and it will go nowhere. You've already insulted me multiple times. I don't owe you a conversation.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

It's you. You're why I'm not discussing this any further. I know how it will go, and it will go nowhere. You've already insulted me multiple times. I don't owe you a conversation.

You don't want to discuss it while I'm involved because you know I've got your number and won't let you misrepresent your own stances. That's why.

It's also why you're trying to be as vague as possible about those stances, because you know so many people on CE are already familiar with them.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

It's you. You're why I'm not discussing this any further. I know how it will go, and it will go nowhere. You've already insulted me multiple times. I don't owe you a conversation.

Then go ahead and pick the person in this topic who you are willing to discuss with.

Jk Rowling absolutely has blood on her hands. We can start with Brianna Ghey, a young girl who was stabbed to death in broad daylight in a public park for being trans

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/5/3/AAcv9ZAAEhMp.jpg

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Making me realize how pointless it is to try to have a civil discussion with you, lol

And that's really all that matters in the world isn't it? Who shares their thoughts and passes laws most civily?

Just because some politician or celebrity is an evil piece of shit doesn't give us an excuse to be rude to them.