Board 8 > Gamefaqs mafia mafia Topic 7: more Choas than Tony

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nearly 24 hours into this day and I cant stop thinking about how much I hate Leas comment this game has many French vanillas when peaf was basically confirmed flavor cop and all the other French vanilla claims (me, Isquen, Corrik) were in her PoE.

Its too bad we never had a chance to lynch both Lea and Red. O wait

Soon.

wallmasterz posted...

Nearly 24 hours into this day and I cant stop thinking about how much I hate Leas comment this game has many French vanillas when peaf was basically confirmed flavor cop and all the other French vanilla claims (me, Isquen, Corrik) were in her PoE.

Its too bad we never had a chance to lynch both Lea and Red. O wait

...Wouldn't this be a reason to suspect them? If you think there's too many, one should be scum.

Lea, 4.274 -

Peaf:
Innocent scan, and I agree that Kirby fulfills the scum scanner niche. So as long as Peaf can continue to do that in the future he's likely fine. I don't think he'll get anything useful, tbh, but this game has many french vanillas.

me, 4.278 - So Lea, who are this games many french vanillas?

Lea, 4.279 - You, Peaf, Isquen, Corrik, redacted can't all be scum

me, 4.280 - didnt realize flavor cop was considered French vanilla so I found it weird you were saying theres a lot of French vanillas when your entire PoE was the only French vanilla claims

Lea, 4.281 - In this game I don't think it's capable of giving actually helpful info. Like what could be possibly get that's more indicative than Red's scan, and that's not very indicative. But I will say if he scans someone and it turns out that like, IGCD was lying about his flavour and is actually Ben on an alt this will be the best game ever.

Crescent has long conned us into 24 hours of torture just to flip a coin and hammer for the free scum win.

Yeah, crescent! If thats your REAL name!

You dont even like kittens do you??

Would be maximum hilarity if she did it to Corrik and Isquen or something

Here's the crux of where I'm at following a nice little hypnosis session I just had to clear up my head

I just spent 50 minutes writing a wall on why to lynch Red, because everything he's done this game flat out looks worse than everything Lea's done this game.. So what tugs at me? I've been in crucial situation before and I have not hesitated like this.

Ok, final breakdown. (I was actually having a hypnosis session just a bit ago to clear my head). Lea's role imbalances the game, full stop, but do I think Sultan would actually create the role she'd need to be? Also, do I trust Sultan to actually balance a game he made so quickly?

Day 1: Red pays a token amount of effort to SBell and Kirby. Red later acts like he always ignores scum as scum and knows I'll know this because of Smash. Lea jumps on SBell when he's already at 4 posts and SBell promptly makes a give up post. Lea then immediately murders Kirby on the gladiator. Red ignores Kirby exists.

Reading Red's past games shows you can't meta him and you can't trust him self meta. Dota 2: Engages Sultan in one meaningless post page 1 (which is exactly what he did with Kirby in this game), and ignores him and HB for the rest of the game (until defending Hb just before he dies). Paper Mario: Engages SBell early, shades Ben on day 1, keeps shading Ben on day 2, and cross-busses with Ben on day 3. Lea deleting her posts is actually super unfair by the way. I had already done this Red meta before I was going to start on her.

Day 2: Red doesn't actually do anything until page 7, where he townpiles a few people at the same time (something he did in Smash). Red suddenly calls Wall "obvscum" out of the blue, but doesn't vote him. Two people vote SBell, Red says maybe, but makes no effort. A third person votes SBell, and Red quickly votes Wall. I am not convinced by any of Red's reasoning for this Wall vote, especially given he ignored any interaction with the train on SBell, who had it's reasoning currently being presented. Lea then pops in with a pretty bad Corrik vote... But Red immediately follows, for no reason, and does not give a reason after. Red spent day 2 doing absolutely nothing that resembled scumhunting in any meaningful way, and placed two votes that defended SBell without ever engaging the SBell conversation.

Day 3: Peaf scans Red. This is whatever, it's a wash. Lea does virtually nothing this entire day and Red does nothing but defend himself. Here's where a line of demarcation is drawn:

Why do IGCD and Peaf die? Peaf scanned Red, but he also had an innocent scan. We did not know at the time if Peaf had valid scans and people genuinely thought someone scanned innocent wouldn't claim... That. There are two trains of thought here. Lea killed Peaf, and killed her own neighbor.. But why would she choose now to kill IGCD? IGCD was someone who ended day 3 completely locked into Red, and showed no indication of ever disbelieving Lea. If scum thought Lea was cop, it's certainly possible the could've expected a scan on Red. The theory that Red is godfather and killed the cop accidentally with an EK actually does make sense. I've also been pondering the possiblity that Lea could've masoned Red without dying and that Peaf's scan was actually the real one. The same logic I used on Wall being dumb to use the EK there also applies to Lea. Even if IGCD had his doubts about her, he never would've shared them. Lea's optimal play here is seems like it would to leave IGCD alive for one more day and claim with him, especially since she knows that, even if he scanned Red, he might still try to kill him anyway. She then EKs him alongside Ulti that night, and the resulting WIFOM writes itself. No one trusts the one innocent scan. No one is confirmed (we didn't have Isquen's claim yet, but lynching him there just results in him immediately getting shot). Whoever comes up with the killer neighbor theory first is probably accused of being scum immediately.

Ulti dies, having been Wall's biggest defender and Red's biggest living detractor (both by a lot). Ulti basically took the mantle right from IGCD. Everyone ignores me and Wall dies. Everyone shades everyone on day 4, more or less, with the exception of Isquen having no interest in lynching Lea.

Then Isquen is shot, when I expected Lea to have shot Red. Isquen had shown heavy resistance to lynching Lea and I don't think he would've changed his mind if left alive, especially if left alive with me. As soon as I saw him killed, I second guessed. Lea's first post was still an abomination. Red claims he would've been there to hammer immediately, Lea says his timestamps say he wasn't there. There isn't anything to prove or disprove that Red was there for the first two minutes of the day - I personally missed the first 6. Red votes Lea extremely fast, and the vote itself is.. Not great. One thing that nagged on me at the time was how mad Red seemed for a while after the vote. I actually have wondered if it's because he realized he missed a chance to hammer.

In the end, Lea has done some things that look good, and everything she's done that looks bad, Red has done worse. IGCD trusted Lea, and Ulti trusted IGCD. Outside of that hideous first post, Lea has consistently had more town equity this game. The thing that's really held me back is role meta. That's it. Her role should not exist in this setup. It wouldn't surprise me if she's scum, but to vote her here is simply the ego play. When it comes down to it, I just.. Don't think Sultan comes up with "Scum neighbor that can EK it's neighbor".

Anything to add to this, Wall? Anything I'm missing here?

Crescent-Moon posted...

. Red votes Lea extremely fast, and the vote itself is.. Not great.

Oh crescent. I had some faith in you and you are going to fail us. If you take the perspective that I'm town this is just flawed logic immediately. How dare I vote scum, what a bad vote on the person that I said yesterday that I was going to vote.

And this is why you fucking make up your mind at f5/f6 on how you are going to proceed in F3/F4.

Unless something new is coming up on the board there is no reason to fucking waffle like this. Wall did it. You did it. Hell Lea pretended to do it. Going to cost the game.

Crescent-Moon posted...

I am not convinced by any of Red's reasoning for this Wall vote, especially given he ignored any interaction with the train on SBell, who had it's reasoning currently being presented. Lea then pops in with a pretty bad Corrik vote... But Red immediately follows, for no reason, and does not give a reason after.

I did in fact give a reason for a corrik vote.

You literally have all the shit where this doesn't match scum games and are going "oh well i'm going to ingore it"

you have the role meta, you are going to go "oh well i'm going to ignore it".

Your doing what wall did and choosing to ignore shit on the board and going to lose the game.

red13n posted...

You literally have all the shit where this doesn't match scum games and are going "oh well i'm going to ingore it"

you have the role meta, you are going to go "oh well i'm going to ignore it".

Your doing what wall did and choosing to ignore shit on the board and going to lose the game.

Specifically, I have scum games it matches and scum games it doesn't match.

Crescent-Moon posted...

The theory that Red is godfather and killed the cop accidentally with an EK actually does make sense.

What even is this. (its fucking dumb conspiracy is what it is)

red13n posted...

And this is why you fucking make up your mind at f5/f6 on how you are going to proceed in F3/F4.

Unless something new is coming up on the board there is no reason to fucking waffle like this. Wall did it. You did it. Hell Lea pretended to do it. Going to cost the game.

My plan was quite literally to roll over and die to Isquen immediately. I had no plan for this F3 at all.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Specifically, I have scum games it matches and scum games it doesn't match.

Oh hell no you dont. Different users, different roles.

You are ignoring this game is literally roleblocker fucking sbell. Thats a fucking "dont touch with a 10 foot pole" status right there.

Crescent-Moon posted...

My plan was quite literally to roll over and die to Isquen immediately. I had no plan for this F3 at all.

Crescent, I've been holding it in. The idea that Isquen would be in F3 is paranoia to the extreme. He was confirmed town. If he was going to come in here and intentionally throw the game as you state he'd be permanently banned from mafia.

Not intentionally throw the game. Just intentionally make sure I don't win it.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Lea says his timestamps say he wasn't there. There isn't anything to prove or disprove that Red was there for the first two minutes of the day - I personally missed the first 6. R

Also you've all misconstrued this the whole time. The timestamp thing, absolutely accurate. But I was just sitting here, right at my PC, playing FFXVI. If I were scum, I'd have a fucking window auto-refreshing setup at a moments notice. I was -here-. As town, I don't have the same kind of need to immediately rush in and read the topic.

As scum, your fucking hammered dead.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Not intentionally throw the game. Just intentionally make sure I don't win it.

This would be bannable.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Why do IGCD and Peaf die? Peaf scanned Red, but he also had an innocent scan. We did not know at the time if Peaf had valid scans and people genuinely thought someone scanned innocent wouldn't claim... That. There are two trains of thought here. Lea killed Peaf, and killed her own neighbor.. But why would she choose now to kill IGCD? IGCD was someone who ended day 3 completely locked into Red, and showed no indication of ever disbelieving Lea. If scum thought Lea was cop, it's certainly possible the could've expected a scan on Red. The theory that Red is godfather and killed the cop accidentally with an EK actually does make sense. I've also been pondering the possiblity that Lea could've masoned Red without dying and that Peaf's scan was actually the real one. The same logic I used on Wall being dumb to use the EK there also applies to Lea. Even if IGCD had his doubts about her, he never would've shared them. Lea's optimal play here is seems like it would to leave IGCD alive for one more day and claim with him, especially since she knows that, even if he scanned Red, he might still try to kill him anyway. She then EKs him alongside Ulti that night, and the resulting WIFOM writes itself. No one trusts the one innocent scan. No one is confirmed (we didn't have Isquen's claim yet, but lynching him there just results in him immediately getting shot). Whoever comes up with the killer neighbor theory first is probably accused of being scum immediately.

Also this is hilarious because Lea's reaction to IGCD dying was a steadfast "oops we hinted it too hard", which turned out to be pretty much entirely a lie.

Lea is the one here that at multiple points has been caught in lies. Not just little white lies either. Complete "I'm making this shit up to look better" lies.

But sure ignore the obvious and lynch me if you want to lose that badly(You shouldn't, you should want to win).

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yeah and confirmed town being left alive in F3 is an immediate "oh wait something is up" flag.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Also this isn't an argument in your favor either because theoretically I'd be in the same position as well. "oh leave in isquen and kill crescent".

red13n posted...

Yeah and confirmed town being left alive in F3 is an immediate "oh wait something is up" flag.

He would be petty enough to justify it as me trying to pull one over on him.

Crescent-Moon posted...

He would be petty enough to justify it as me trying to pull one over on him.

why do you two even play mafia if you are going to be that petty.

red13n posted...

why do you two even play mafia if you are going to be that petty.

See there's 0 chance I ever let him live last night for any reason but it's exactly what he'd say if he were alive

red13n posted...

why do you two even play mafia if you are going to be that petty.

This isn't aimed at you either crescent. I just dont get why people take this game personal in the slightest. It weirds me out.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Red spent day 2 doing absolutely nothing that resembled scumhunting in any meaningful way, and placed two votes that defended SBell without ever engaging the SBell conversation.

This is incomplete as well. Where are you losing the narrative. Because I said I would be fine with an sbell lynch and also came it at the end and was like "that claim looks bad".

red13n posted...

This is incomplete as well. Where are you losing the narrative. Because I said I would be fine with an sbell lynch and also came it at the end and was like "that claim looks bad".

You said you could be persuaded... But made no attempt to actually be persuaded.

Oh and I totally posted that knowing Red would erupt and I wanted to see how he reacted.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Then Isquen is shot, when I expected Lea to have shot Red. Isquen had shown heavy resistance to lynching Lea and I don't think he would've changed his mind if left alive, especially if left alive with me. As soon as I saw him killed, I second guessed. Lea's first post was still an abomination. Red claims he would've been there to hammer immediately, Lea says his timestamps say he wasn't there. There isn't anything to prove or disprove that Red was there for the first two minutes of the day - I personally missed the first 6. Red votes Lea extremely fast, and the vote itself is.. Not great. One thing that nagged on me at the time was how mad Red seemed for a while after the vote. I actually have wondered if it's because he realized he missed a chance to hammer.

Anyway, this is fucking paranoia to the extreme. If this is your deciding factor and we lose to Crescent literally have some personal fued I am going to be a little ticked in endgame. This is the point you two just shouldn't play together if this is how you both feel you are going to play.

Deciding factor no. If there were a deciding factor I'd have voted you long ago.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Deciding factor no. If there were a deciding factor I'd have voted you long ago.

Let me rephrase that, the fact it is a factor at all is ridiculous.

I mean though, I really did post that just to see how you reacted. I only wrote it to see if I could convince myself. I know exactly what's going on in my head at this point.

My gut still tells me to disregard a large pile of town bodies (INCLUDING ONE THAT'S CURRENTLY TALKING TO ME) that all wanted you dead and to vote for Lea.

I'm going to be honest having literal confirmed town sitting here telling me to lynch you all day has done absolutely nothing for my confidence.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Why do IGCD and Peaf die? Peaf scanned Red, but he also had an innocent scan. We did not know at the time if Peaf had valid scans and people genuinely thought someone scanned innocent wouldn't claim... That. There are two trains of thought here. Lea killed Peaf, and killed her own neighbor.. But why would she choose now to kill IGCD? IGCD was someone who ended day 3 completely locked into Red, and showed no indication of ever disbelieving Lea. If scum thought Lea was cop, it's certainly possible the could've expected a scan on Red. The theory that Red is godfather and killed the cop accidentally with an EK actually does make sense. I've also been pondering the possiblity that Lea could've masoned Red without dying and that Peaf's scan was actually the real one. The same logic I used on Wall being dumb to use the EK there also applies to Lea. Even if IGCD had his doubts about her, he never would've shared them. Lea's optimal play here is seems like it would to leave IGCD alive for one more day and claim with him, especially since she knows that, even if he scanned Red, he might still try to kill him anyway. She then EKs him alongside Ulti that night, and the resulting WIFOM writes itself. No one trusts the one innocent scan. No one is confirmed (we didn't have Isquen's claim yet, but lynching him there just results in him immediately getting shot). Whoever comes up with the killer neighbor theory first is probably accused of being scum immediately.

This ignores the fucking obvious.

"Removing scanners benefits scum". Why did they die? They were fucking scanners. If they were neighbors, IGCD never gets an opportunity to say so.

And we know IGCD did not vote lock-step with Lea.

Crescent-Moon posted...

I'm going to be honest having literal confirmed town sitting here telling me to lynch you all day has done absolutely nothing for my confidence.

If you are voting me, you are voting the person that wasn't trying to kill you to open the day.

Again, a player better than wallz, that did nothing to try to convince wallz that their opinion that you were scum was correct.

Lea stated that she thought that ultimately I was town. She did nothing to try to convince wallz of that either.

Crescent-Moon posted...

My gut still tells me to disregard a large pile of town bodies (INCLUDING ONE THAT'S CURRENTLY TALKING TO ME) that all wanted you dead and to vote for Lea.

You do it and you get bragging rights over all of them, just saying.

red13n posted...

You do it and you get bragging rights over all of them, just saying.

I do it and I'm wrong and I go into hiding for like 6 months.

Most of them had those opinions BEFORE we knew Isquen was town unlynchable, btw. That fucking changed the setup meta so much.

Literrally 3 confirmed town and a cop scan(And a flavor scan, not as useful I think but still helps confirm peaf) on night 1.
Plus a gladiate.

It all resolves to "oh wait it was balanced" by recognizing "oh yeah Lea was full of shit".

Crescent-Moon posted...

Anything to add to this, Wall? Anything I'm missing here?

This is not an easy decision imo. No hard feelings if you choose to listen to your gut and lynch Lea. I hope Im wrong and we can all laugh about how I need to pull a George Costanza at all times.

This was literally the part of the argument where Lea tried to go "It was experimental so imba" and then in the same argument said "experimental was just how the roles were made up".

Literally caught in a lie about the setup.

Ulti immediately thought Isquen was town and not even worth testing, actually. But, he did waffle between you and Lea a bit. I called Ulti confirmed town basically as soon as the day started.