Current Events > Where do you go to avoid "the man always pay for a date!"?

(+) Yeah! (+)

NatsuSama posted...

He may have been speaking about an outdated social etiquette, however he was also playing a moral high ground card in his argument.

If this is your new stance, great. But don't pretend that was your original stance. You seem to forget one can easily read through this topic and what your original stance was which was the person who asks should pay.

So what's difficult to understand is you walking your stance back and pretending this new stance was your stance all along.

Yes, I think the person who asks should pay. I think that is the polite way to go about it.

Then you decided to write a massive thesis about how I believe people should pay for my company because I don't grace people with my presence for free. Which is a ludicrously overblown reaction.

It's a really straightforward, commonplace piece of etiquette, and you decided to invest it with an absurd amount of significance. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you're just messing with me. If so, good job, but we've come to the end of the road.

This fucking topic again?

Straight men, just offer to pay on a first date. But also be smart and don't go somewhere expensive.

I didn't watch the video, and I haven't been on a "first date" in literally 20 years, but I though the new tradition was whoever asked is the one that pays?

bigblu89 posted...

I didn't watch the video, and I haven't been on a "first date" in literally 20 years, but I though the new tradition was whoever asked is the one that pays?

Which means the man 95% of the time, which is fine. There are others things that are actually worth complaining about. This is not one of them.

(Not directed at you, bigblu89)

ai123 posted...

Yes, I think the person who asks should pay. I think that is the polite way to go about it.

Then you decided to write a massive thesis about how I believe people should pay for my company because I don't grace people with my presence for free. Which is a ludicrously overblown reaction.

It's a really straightforward, commonplace piece of etiquette, and you decided to invest it with an absurd amount of significance. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you're just messing with me. If so, good job, but we've come to the end of the road.

Now you're flip flopping.

You claim the person who asks should pay, then play the moral bs card.
I point out that moral bs holds no ground as it's an outdated way of thinking that is pitiful in the morality department. Don't preach to me about morality if the only way you can hang out with me is if you expect compensation to grace me with your presence. No matter how you phrase this, you are expecting compensation because someone asked you to hang out with them.
You turn around and claim you never said you expect the person who asks should pay.
I point at the post you literally did say just that with additional post with you going on moral bs nonsense about generosity and rudeness.
Then you turn around and act like just 5 seconds ago you didn't just claim you didn't say the thing that now 5 seconds later you're admitting oh ya you totally did argue.

But I'm the one trying to mess with you? That's a hilarious.

Turbam posted...

McDonald's

So romantic

Its just a kind gesture. Sometimes kind gestures show you are thinking of them, and that you have some humanity

NatsuSama posted...

If the only reason a friend or a girl is hanging out with you is because they think they are going to get a free meal out of you then they aren't worth being around. It also tells me a lot about the kind of person they are and what they think of me.

No one should show up to spend time with someone expecting free things.

Considering this was the first exchange between you two, you are definitely in the wrong here. He never said she was expecting a free meal.

Almost none of my dates expected a free meal. Most offered to split, I would say "it's alright, I invited you out". They would say "okay" and oftentimes would say, "I'll get the next one". A very positive sign.

This exchange not only shows that I am generous, but it gives a lot of clues to their personality as well. A woman who lets me pay without saying a thing is probably someone I don't want to date.

bsp77 posted...

Considering this was the first exchange between you two, you are definitely in the wrong here. He never said she was expecting a free meal.

I'm not, his first response was literally, "The person who does the asking should assume they will get the bill. You don't ask someone for their company and then expect them to pay, though they can offer if they want.

It's the same thing when I go for a meal with friends or family. If my parents ask me to lunch, they're paying; if I ask my brother, then I'll get the bill."

You agreeingwith his stance doesn't make him correct.

Me and my wife split the first date. I bought dinner, and the parking, while she had bought the tickets to the concert (oak ridge boys). While the tickets were a Christmas gift from her to me, right after that we decided screw it, lets make it our first date.

NatsuSama posted...

I'm not, his first response was literally, "The person who does the asking should assume they will get the bill. You don't ask someone for their company and then expect them to pay, though they can offer if they want.

It's the same thing when I go for a meal with friends or family. If my parents ask me to lunch, they're paying; if I ask my brother, then I'll get the bill."

You agreeingwith his stance doesn't make him correct.

He still never said they are "expecting" a free meal. You also ignored the rest of my post. Convenient.

bsp77 posted...

He still never said they are "expecting" a free meal. You also ignored the rest of my post. Convenient.

If you are expected to pay for something for asking, that means that the person asked is expecting you to pay.

If you are making hamburgers for people, it's commonplace for them to expect you to cook them as in, they are expected not raw meat.

bsp77 posted...

This exchange not only shows that I am generous, but it gives a lot of clues to their personality as well. A woman who lets me pay without saying a thing is probably someone I don't want to date.

As for this bs, I have already explained why that's bs.

If you wish to pay for someone's meal that is certainly your prerogative that I'm not attacking I'm this topic.

However theres a massive difference between you volunteering to pay because its something you wish to do, and what we are discussing which is this obligation that you should and any bs reasoning on why you absolutely should.

I can get ones personality also just fine on if they can only hang out with me if I'm a meal ticket and worse those who tap dance around logic that they expected me to pay even if that didn't work out to how they thought it should have played out.

NatsuSama posted...

As for this bs, I have already explained why that's bs.

If you wish to pay for someone's meal that is certainly your prerogative that I'm not attacking I'm this topic.

However theres a massive difference between you volunteering to pay because its something you wish to do, and what we are discussing which is this obligation that you should and any bs reasoning on why you absolutely should.

I can get ones personality also just fine on if they can only hang out with me if I'm a meal ticket.

I agree that it should not be an obligation. My argument is for why it is still in the man's best interest to do so.

NatsuSama posted...

I can get ones personality also just fine on if they can only hang out with me if I'm a meal ticket.

You'd have to take people like that to the park or something then and never take them anywhere that money is a transaction. I really don't like this though.

WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...

Why do I get this feeling that some of the posters in this thread are a week or two away from saying stuff like "Dating is the same as prostitution. I should get sex if I'm paying for a date."

@wrkhrdPlayHrdr

I don't believe it isn't. I feel like I was in that situation, I would just never call back. Those dates where you are expected to pay are not dates, they are interviews. Which is something you did or should have done on the phone stages of whatever you want to call it.

I am not saying I wouldn't go to fancy restaurants but to me if this is the only dates you do. You don't really like each other. I am speaking from a straight cis-het perspective here but those dates seems like to me a thing you talk to your friends with and post the dish on Instagram. Pretty much just simulate a 'lavish lifestyle'.

ArtiRock posted...

You'd have to take people like that to the park or something then and never take them anywhere that money is a transaction. I really don't like this though.

Also, hard to find out if they ARE that type of person. Paying and seeing their reaction and how they address future dates is a good thing to learn early on.

texanfan27 posted...

Me and my wife split the first date. I bought dinner, and the parking, while she had bought the tickets to the concert (oak ridge boys). While the tickets were a Christmas gift from her to me, right after that we decided screw it, lets make it our first date.

To me, that shows you guys are both equally invested in each other.

bsp77 posted...

I agree that it should not be an obligation. My argument is for why it is still in the man's best interest to do so.

To be clear, you and I are discussing something slightly different to what me and the other person was discussing. So moving forward I'm addressing your argument and not the other guys when responding directly to you.

My argument is its not in their best interest for anyone by default to propagate such an outdated stance. Male or female.

My position is if you wish to pay for someone's company that is certainly your prerogative which I'm not attacking in this topic. I however don't support this push that tap dances around creating expectations and obligations of the person asked getting a free meal.

First date should be free (walk in the park, Netflix and chill, etc...) or cheap (meet for drinks). That's the only way to navigate around the hypocrisy of feminism and not be a "foodie call".
If meeting up for drinks, get there early and pay for yours before she gets there. Then if it's an instant catastrophe (she looks completely different from her picture; she's rude/drunk/abrasive from the start; etc...) you can just bail immediately. Otherwise, you can buy her one drink and get to know her, minimal investment.

bigblu89 posted...

I didn't watch the video, and I haven't been on a "first date" in literally 20 years, but I though the new tradition was whoever asked is the one that pays?

That's just the new meta for "man always pays". It's a cop out. Women almost never ask the guy out, they'll just "send signals" to get him to ask her out.

streamofthesky posted...

hypocrisy of feminism

streamofthesky posted...

"send signals"

Misogyny detected! Lol

ArtiRock posted...

If you are expected to pay for something for asking, that means that the person asked is expecting you to pay.

If you are making hamburgers for people, it's commonplace for them to expect you to cook them as in, they are expected not raw meat.

Hold on, do you disagree with this post, @bsp77 ?

I feel like the poster was definitely claiming you must expect to pay if you invite someone. Otherwise youre rude or are testing relationships.

Natsu has been very reasonable imo.

bsp77 posted...

Misogyny detected! Lol

It isn't so much hypocrisy of feminism. It is a pick and choose what benefits you from patriarchy and feminism.

1. I want to break gender role and have a high paying job - feminism, which is cool
2. A man must have to pay for a date - part of the patriarchy submitting to gender role norm.

I think it would be better if some of if would admit we want a mixture of both.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Hold on, do you disagree with this post, @bsp77 ?

I feel like the poster was definitely claiming you must expect to pay if you invite someone. Otherwise youre rude or are testing relationships.

Natsu has been very reasonable imo.

I agree with this:

"The person who does the asking should assume they will get the bill"

But not that it is an "expectation". I know that seems like a tiny nuance, but it is an important one to me. I already gave my reasoning for why I did it, and why I think it is in the best interest of men to do so.

And once again, almost none of my dates actually "expected" me to do so. This is why I don't buy that "hypocrisy of feminism" BS. It typically is NOT the same women who are actually feminists and the women who expect to have a free meal. I have almost exclusively dated feminists (I do not like conservatives much, men or women), and they did not expect me to pay. I simply did, and I did it in a courteous way and it did not seem I then expected sex in return, because I didn't.

bsp77 posted...

I agree with this:

"The person who does the asking should assume they will get the bill"

But not that it is an "expectation". I know that seems like a tiny nuance, but it is an important one to me. I already gave my reasoning for why I did it, and why I think it is in the best interest of men to do so.

And once again, almost none of my dates actually "expected" me to do so. This is why I don't buy that "hypocrisy of feminism" BS. It typically is NOT the same women who are actually feminists and the women who expect to have a free meal. I have almost exclusively dated feminists (I do not like conservatives much, men or women), and they did not expect me to pay. I simply did, and I did it in a courteous way and it did not seem I then expected sex in return, because I didn't.

Where do you live? Like what city or state?

omniryu posted...

Where do you live? Like what city or state?

Twin Cities, MN

I now realize that this could make a difference. Things vary.

Im not tryna pick on you or anything. Im just curious since you said Natsu was in the wrong. Which is shocking imo.

bsp77 posted...

I agree with this:

"The person who does the asking should assume they will get the bill"

But not that it is an "expectation". I know that seems like a tiny nuance, but it is an important one to me.

May I ask your opinion on these posts by the same poster?

ai123 posted...

It's the same thing when I go for a meal with friends or family. If my parents ask me to lunch, they're paying;

ai123 posted...

Asking someone to do something with you, and then expecting them to stump up the cash seems . . . almost rude. Certainly ungenerous.

Do you still not feel like the poster is saying youre expected to pay for inviting someone? When not doing so is considered almost rude and even for his parents, hes firmly stating they will pay?

If not, cool. Just wanted to make sure were taking what the poster is saying overall into account.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Im not tryna pick on you or anything. Im just curious since you said Natsu was in the wrong. Which is shocking imo.

May I ask your opinion on these posts by the same poster?

Do you still not feel like the poster is saying youre expected to pay for inviting someone? When not doing so is considered almost rude and even for his parents, hes firmly stating they will pay?

If not, cool. Just wanted to make sure were taking what the poster is saying overall into account.

Yeah, I agree with you. I honestly did not read all of the back and forth. I only saw the first interaction between ai123 and NatsuSama, so maybe I shouldn't have butted in to their conversation.

bsp77 posted...

Twin Cities, MN

I now realize that this could make a difference. Things vary.

Yeah, exactly, I live in an area where a hybrid conservative and a feminists area.

omniryu posted...

Yeah, exactly, I live in an area where a hybrid conservative and a feminists area.

But I could still argue that my way quickly finds out what type of women you are dealing with.

Regardless, most women I dated made sure I was NOT a conservative before the first date. Also, I swiped left if any conservative red flags in their profiles.

Ive never really understood an aversion to paying on a date. If youre going on a date, that should be because you want to. If you want to go on the date, whats the issue with paying?

Personally, I think its in the best interest of women and men to pay for their own stuff.

Not split. Not pay for others.

Pay for what you order. Were all adults.

It prevents dudes from thinking the woman owes them for something and prevents guys from feeling like a lady is using them for meals.

If the expectation is no expectations, thats immensely better. That way if one party wants to offer to pay, cool. But its definitely better to not have expectations ahead of time imo.

Because I do judge a woman who just assumes Im paying. Which does her a disservice. I pay because I want to.

bsp77 posted...

But I could still argue that my way quickly finds out what type of women you are dealing with.

Regardless, most women I dated made sure I was NOT a conservative before the first date. Also, I swiped left if any conservative red flags in their profiles.

That doesn't necessarily work with these particular type of women. See it like this. It isn't a binary but a spectrum.
Yes on each end you have the 100% conservative and the opposite end you the 100% progressive. But there certain people in between.

I seen women run businesses and beat traditional gender role at the work place but they will literally say, don't approach me if you have no money. Which is a harsh patriarchal standard on men. That are only value is what we provide.

Glob posted...

Ive never really understood an aversion to paying on a date. If youre going on a date, that should be because you want to. If you want to go on the date, whats the issue with paying?

The issue isn't paying but what it means about paying. Like the hidden context. Am I going out with you because I am equally invested in you or am I testing you?

bsp77 posted...

I agree with this:

"The person who does the asking should assume they will get the bill"

But not that it is an "expectation". I know that seems like a tiny nuance, but it is an important one to me. I already gave my reasoning for why I did it, and why I think it is in the best interest of men to do so.

You say it shouldnt be an obligation, but at the same time champion the thought as something "ungenerous" not to volunteer. As if that is the attitude the person whos being asked should have if the person doesnt volunteer to pay for their own meal. Promoting the person who asks should pay by default also promotes the person being asked should also have that mindset.

Saying you like volunteering to pay, and don't mind paying if you ask first is one thing. There is nothing wrong with this idea at all.
But taking it a step further and claiming others should, and going down this road of morality or whatever derogatory spin for acting as if it's a moral obligation is another. You say you agree it's not a moral obligation, but at the same time the use of inflammatory language by some tells another story.

If it's not an obligation like some claim to agree with, then the discussion shouldn't act like its "rude" or "ungenerous" to not pay for both meals.
If it's not an obligation, such inflammatory language shouldn't be repeated so often which is directly setting up the expectation to begin with.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

I pay because I want to.

Well, yeah. This is why I pay for her. First date only though. Almost every woman I have dated payed for the second date. Or the best is when a first date goes well and leads to a second location. In those instances, they always offered to pay at those second locations.

My fiance and I have always taken turns paying - not always literally every other time, but it balances out. But I like one person paying vs splitting. It just seems more like we are in this together.

omniryu posted...

The issue isn't paying but what it means about paying. Like the hidden context. Am I going out with you because I am equally invested in you or am I testing you?

I think if theyre stringing you along for a meal ticket youll find out soon enough. Just try to have some fun in the mean time.

At the end of the day, paying for a meal here and there isnt going to be a problem unless youre seriously hard up.

NatsuSama posted...

You say it shouldnt be an obligation, but at the same time champion the thought as something "ungenerous" not to volunteer. As if that is the attitude the person whos being asked should have if the person doesnt volunteer to pay for their own meal. Promoting the person who asks should pay by default also promotes the person being asked should also have that mindset.

Saying you like volunteering to pay, and don't mind paying if you ask first is one thing. There is nothing wrong with this idea at all.
But taking it a step further and claiming others should, and going down this road of morality or whatever derogatory spin for acting as if it's a moral obligation is another. You say you agree it's not a moral obligation, but at the same time the use of inflammatory language by some tells another story.

If it's not an obligation like some claim to agree with, then the discussion shouldn't act like its "rude" or "ungenerous" to not pay for both meals.
If it's not an obligation, such inflammatory language shouldn't be repeated so often which is directly setting up the expectation to begin with.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that others "should" as a moral thing at all. It is more about giving you the best leg up AND learning a lot about the woman by her reaction and her follow up regarding subsequent dates. It was advice that worked for me.

Also, not sure if you saw, but I admitted I shouldn't have butted in. I apologize for that.

I4NRulez posted...

The rule i go by is that if i invite someone out somewhere im gonna pay and if someone invites me out then im always prepared to pay for myself if needed.

This, I operate in the same light. In many cases where I'm about to pay and the person who invited me pays for it anyways, always appreciates the fact that I was willing to even pay to begin with. It's one of the few ways to make great first impressions.

Glob posted...

I think if theyre stringing you along for a meal ticket youll find out soon enough. Just try to have some fun in the mean time.

At the end of the day, paying for a meal here and there isnt going to be a problem unless youre seriously hard up.

I feel like it is a systemic issue. Like on my environment you have a large amount of individuals who just want a high end dinner.

And the bigger picture is these people will leave a false impression on women in general.
Let's be real when some guys mention feminism it is coming from a place of hurt. They will generate false ideals because some women who either isn't a true feminist or something that guy strongly attack feminism to for no reason will do something to hurt that guy.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

You haven't been in that environment. That's the thing.

omniryu posted...

I feel like it is a systemic issue. Like on my environment you have a large amount of individuals who just want a high end dinner.

And the bigger picture is these people will leave a false impression on women in general.
Let's be real when some guys mention feminism it is coming from a place of hurt. They will generate false ideals because some women who either isn't a true feminist or something that guy strongly attack feminism to for no reason will do something to hurt that guy.

You haven't been in that environment. That's the thing.

I want a high end dinner. I like high end dinners. Thats why when I was single, those are the dates I would do. And yeah, unless they insisted otherwise, I would pay. And that was fine.

I think the issue is that far too many people see a date or relationship or whatever as a simplified transaction. I dont see it that way.

bsp77 posted...

To be clear, I wasn't saying that others "should" as a moral thing at all. It is more about giving you the best leg up AND learning a lot about the woman by her reaction and her follow up regarding subsequent dates. It was advice that worked for me.

You can learn a lot about a person including a woman without volunteering to pay their things. Same to getting a leg up.

If my leg up with a person (man or woman) is me paying for their things, that alone tells me a lot.

As I said before, this doesn't mean I'm telling people to stop doing what makes yourself happy or what you think works best for you. In this case being paying first for a date.

I however DONT think it's by default in a man or woman's best interest to propagate the person who asked should pay.

@cuttin_in_farm summarized better where I stand in Post 83

Also, not sure if you saw, but I admitted I shouldn't have butted in. I apologize for that.

It's cool, I've moved on from what me and AI was discussing since what you and are are discussing is slightly different.

I agree with the guy there. It sounded like he wanted to meet up at the beach and do a walk and talk date. She suggested the dinner, so I think it's fair to expect her to pay. She was clearly bothered by that since she bailed right after.

And I strongly disagree with that clip he played at the end. The man should always pay and married women that go 50/50 with their husbands might as well be single? What!? That's definitely the type of woman to avoid like the plague lol.

That said though, there are plenty of women out there that don't act like this. Don't let the red pill crowd convince you that it's all negative. When I was still single, I had multiple women tell me "I'll pay next time" after I paid for dinner (I was the one that suggested the dinner). And they were true to their word. My gf and I pay for each other all the time.

NoxObscuras posted...

I agree with the guy there. It sounded like he wanted to meet up at the beach and do a walk and talk date. She suggested the dinner, so I think it's fair to expect her to pay. She was clearly bothered by that since she bailed right after.

And I strongly disagree with that clip he played at the end. The man should always pay and married women that go 50/50 with their husbands might as well be single? What!? That's definitely the type of woman to avoid like the plague lol.

That said though, there are plenty of women out there that don't act like this. Don't let the red pill crowd convince you that it's all negative. When I was still single, I had multiple women tell me "I'll pay next time" after I paid for dinner (I was the one that suggested the dinner). And they were true to their word. My gf and I pay for each other all the time.

Good post, and good balance regarding all of this

Glob posted...

I want a high end dinner. I like high end dinners. Thats why when I was single, those are the dates I would do. And yeah, unless they insisted otherwise, I would pay. And that was fine.

I think the issue is that far too many people see a date or relationship or whatever as a simplified transaction. I dont see it that way.

And that's where I am getting at. A date, relationship and marriage to some people are a transaction or a checklist..
Did you know when covid hit there was a huge spike in divorces? Why? I think when they spent time together a lot of people realize they have nothing in common with their spouse.

omniryu posted...

Did you know when covid hit there was a huge spike in divorces? Why? I think when they spent time together a lot of people realize they have nothing in common with their spouse.

Lol. I had a two year relationship end about 4 months into Covid. But we had everything in common, but our personalities clashed because too similar. She is still my friend as a result.

bsp77 posted...

Lol. I had a two year relationship end about 4 months into Covid. But we had everything in common, but our personalities clashed because too similar. She is still my friend as a result.

Who was the hothead?