Poll of the Day > Do any of you here doubt the accuracy of radiocarbon or radiometric dating?

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GranTurismo
08/04/23 4:22:48 PM
#1:


like how old they think dinosaur fossils are. Do any of you think it is not accurate or have heard others doubt how accurate they are?
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 4:48:29 PM
#2:


The only reason you would doubt it is if you have the unfortunate mindset that the earth is 3000 years old.
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[deleted]
08/04/23 6:01:12 PM
#20:


[deleted]
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PK_Spam
08/04/23 6:58:11 PM
#3:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
The only reason you would doubt it is if you have the unfortunate mindset that the earth is 3000 years old.


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GranTurismo
08/04/23 7:10:05 PM
#4:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
The only reason you would doubt it is if you have the unfortunate mindset that the earth is 3000 years old.
doesn't have to be a creationist , someone could believe it is only like a million yrs old or that it's not as accurate as believed
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Blightzkrieg
08/04/23 7:14:33 PM
#5:


I have my doubts about object permanence

I can see the clitoris in images but when I actually seek it out it's not there

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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 7:18:45 PM
#6:


GranTurismo posted...
doesn't have to be a creationist , someone could believe it is only like a million yrs old or that it's not as accurate as believed
Who?

Btw, carbon dating is only useful up until 60,000 years, it's half-life is 5,730 years, so after long it's not useful anymore.

You would have to take issue with the concept of radioactive decay for some reason. And like, basic chemistry. But again, take an issue with basic widespread science, get laughed at. You're allowed to think that, you'd just be wrong.
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potdnewb
08/04/23 7:24:02 PM
#7:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
Who?

Btw, carbon dating is only useful up until 60,000 years, it's half-life is 5,730 years, so after long it's not useful anymore.

You would have to take issue with the concept of radioactive decay for some reason. And like, basic chemistry. But again, take an issue with basic widespread science, get laughed at. You're allowed to think that, you'd just be wrong.
considering how much science has been proven wrong by more science its ok to have some doubt regarding science as truth
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 7:27:38 PM
#8:


potdnewb posted...
considering how much science has been proven wrong by more science its ok to have some doubt regarding science as truth
If you have an issue with science that essentially the entire field is based on, then you need to propose an alternate theory that accounts for that or you're a quack. Also, you're still an arrogant quack if you do that, because you're implying that you without any education at all are smarter than the entire scientific field, when in reality you don't understand it.

If you were genuinely, without mental illness, trying to disprove something, you might even get funding just to support re-enforcing existing theories.

In this case, you're basically going up against Einstien.
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potdnewb
08/04/23 7:37:22 PM
#9:


id like you to learn a little thing called the scientific method
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 7:40:06 PM
#10:


potdnewb posted...
id like you to learn a little thing called the scientific method
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/5/9/AAcUPLAAEuaD.png
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BlackScythe0
08/04/23 7:40:52 PM
#11:


GranTurismo posted...
like how old they think dinosaur fossils are. Do any of you think it is not accurate or have heard others doubt how accurate they are?

Do you have an alternate proposal?
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agesboy
08/04/23 7:49:55 PM
#12:


it's healthy to doubt, just not healthy to come to conclusions based on doubt due to ignorance. you should be able to articulate why you doubt something if that doubt affects any other judgements you make

the scientific method's step 0 is saying "idk man that might be wrong", you need to progress beyond that if you want to validate your own doubts to even yourself. hell I doubt we're not in the matrix but since there's no corroborating evidence i'm not going to actually push that opinion beyond being anything but paranoia

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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 7:56:34 PM
#13:


Yeah in science basically nothing is accepted as absolute fact, it's all a theory. Just theories that build off of other theories with supporting evidence.

So again, you can believe whatever you want, you just wouldn't be doing yourself any favors.
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potdnewb
08/04/23 8:04:01 PM
#14:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
Yeah in science basically nothing is accepted as absolute fact, it's all a theory. Just theories that build off of other theories with supporting evidence.

So again, you can believe whatever you want, you just wouldn't be doing yourself any favors.
sometimes believing what your told is not doing you any favors
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 8:09:45 PM
#15:


potdnewb posted...
sometimes believing what your told is not doing you any favors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzOo8Sh-J34

That literally means nothing, because I don't believe in radioactive dating just because someone told me to, I believe it because it makes sense and I want to be correct about things.
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NeoSioType
08/04/23 8:12:07 PM
#16:


Just let me do my tarot reading, hon. Hmm... Hmm... Ah! Yes.

Turns out I don't know!
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agesboy
08/04/23 8:13:05 PM
#17:


the scientific method is trying to disprove anything and everything about the natural world

scientists try to disprove unsubstantiated shit even if they personally believe it

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potdnewb
08/04/23 8:14:45 PM
#18:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
I want to be correct about things.
then youll probably only see what you want to see and not the unadulterated truth and your likely to create false data so your correct
desire is the enemy of proper science
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 8:17:33 PM
#19:


potdnewb posted...
then youll probably only see what you want to see and not the unadulterated truth and your likely to create false data so your correct
desire is the enemy of proper science
I don't know what you're trying to insinuate here.

What's your point? You don't believe in radioactive dating?
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 8:23:04 PM
#21:


Here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe45GegJUvM

https://study.com/learn/lesson/radioactive-dating-process-examples.html

Also, when I said dating being limited by carbon's half-life, I made a mistake, because you can date stuff using other elements than carbon
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potdnewb
08/04/23 8:23:47 PM
#22:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
I don't know what you're trying to insinuate here.

What's your point? You don't believe in radioactive dating?
i believe there is the possibility that it could be wrong
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adjl
08/04/23 8:28:41 PM
#23:


potdnewb posted...
i believe there is the possibility that it could be wrong

Why do you believe this?

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potdnewb
08/04/23 8:29:56 PM
#24:


adjl posted...
Why do you believe this?
because there is the possibility it is wrong
everything set in stone erodes
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adjl
08/04/23 8:31:49 PM
#25:


potdnewb posted...
because there is the possibility it is wrong

There's a possibility that everything is wrong. Doubting things specifically, though, should be based on finding a reason to doubt them. What is your reason?

potdnewb posted...
everything set in stone erodes

And that's why radiometric dating works.

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potdnewb
08/04/23 8:33:24 PM
#26:


adjl posted...
And that's why radiometric dating works.
most stones dont contain carbon
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 8:34:49 PM
#27:


potdnewb posted...
most stones dont contain carbon
You can use other elements besides carbon. Also a lot of things can't be dated, but certain things can.
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 8:37:55 PM
#28:


Also, I have a real question for anyone. If carbon has a half-life of 5,730, how does any of it still exist if elements are formed in stars?

edit

https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/isotopes/decay.html
If 14C is Always Decaying, Why is it Still in Our Atmosphere?

How is it that there is still 14C left in the atmosphere (or anywhere else on Earth) when it is constantly disappearing? Where does new 14C come from?
Cosmic rays are high energy particles that originate in outer space. When they collide with matter in the atmosphere they can shatter a nucleus into smaller pieces (a process called spallation), including neutrons. The latter slow down, again by colliding with matter in the atmosphere. Once they have slowed down enough a neutron can be absorbed by a nitrogen-14 (14N) nucleus while kicking out a proton, resulting in a 14C nucleus.

So I guess that means none of our current carbon was created in a star.
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adjl
08/04/23 8:42:31 PM
#29:


potdnewb posted...
most stones dont contain carbon

Which is why I said radiometric dating and not radiocarbon dating.

Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
So I guess that means none of our current carbon was created in a star.

I figured it was something like that, but I realized I wasn't actually 100% sure when I read your question. Today I... learned? Confirmed? Remembered something I probably already learned? Eh, whatever. The important thing is that I know now.

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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 9:00:10 PM
#30:


Yeah and that's exactly how they can tell how old something that had carbon in it is potdnewb

They just have to know how much carbon was expected, and then see how much of it isn't there, then they can estimate how old it is.
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potdnewb
08/04/23 10:05:32 PM
#31:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
Yeah and that's exactly how they can tell how old something that had carbon in it is potdnewb

They just have to know how much carbon was expected, and then see how much of it isn't there, then they can estimate how old it is.
based on the assumption that we know how much c14 is absorbed by an organism over its lifetime yes im saying the standard is still an assumption since we have learned that observed absorption rate is variable
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GranTurismo
08/04/23 10:06:31 PM
#32:


potdnewb posted...
based on the assumption that we know how much c14 is absorbed by an organism over its lifetime yes im saying the standard is still an assumption since we have learned that observed absorption rate is variable
yeah iirc they can't use radiocarbon dating on dinosaur fossils, they use radiometric dating on the rocks above and below where the fossils were found
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potdnewb
08/04/23 10:08:10 PM
#33:


GranTurismo posted...
yeah iirc they can't use radiocarbon dating on dinosaur fossils, they use radiometric dating on the rocks above and below where the fossils were found
still based on assumed standards
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GranTurismo
08/04/23 10:17:53 PM
#34:


potdnewb posted...
still based on assumed standards
do you personally doubt the estimated ages for dinosaurs?
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potdnewb
08/04/23 10:19:24 PM
#35:


GranTurismo posted...
do you personally doubt the estimated ages for dinosaurs?
since the age is already assumed and estimated the doubt is built in
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GranTurismo
08/04/23 10:21:01 PM
#36:


potdnewb posted...
since the age is already assumed and estimated the doubt is built in
do you have any opinion or guess about how old most dinosaur fossils are?
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potdnewb
08/04/23 10:23:55 PM
#37:


GranTurismo posted...
do you have any opinion or guess about how old most dinosaur fossils are?
old enough to be buried in the ground but not enough to have disappeared completely
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agesboy
08/04/23 10:25:23 PM
#38:


everything is assumed and estimated. do you think every meter stick is identical molecularly? every measuring flask?

if you doubt 100% of existence, your definition of "doubt" is abnormal to begin with

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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 10:29:31 PM
#39:


potdnewb posted...
based on the assumption that we know how much c14 is absorbed by an organism over its lifetime yes im saying the standard is still an assumption since we have learned that observed absorption rate is variable
It doesn't absorb the carbon, it starts with it. It's made of it.
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potdnewb
08/04/23 10:32:48 PM
#40:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
It doesn't absorb the carbon, it starts with it. It's made of it.
not c14 and c14 is basis for radiocarbon dating
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 10:33:59 PM
#41:


potdnewb posted...
not c14 and c14 is basis for radiocarbon dating
Bro

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/5/0/AAcUPLAAEube.jpg
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potdnewb
08/04/23 10:39:58 PM
#42:


Whiterun_Guard_ posted...
Bro

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/5/0/AAcUPLAAEube.jpg
bro
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/6/1/AAfa96AAEubp.jpg
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/04/23 10:45:37 PM
#43:


That's over their lifetimes, and when a carbon decays in a living being it's replaced. Since it's just a constant chance that any given atom will decay, carbon of any age is the same as brand new carbon.

There's also a margin of error of 4% in carbon dating, 4% of 60,000 is 2400 years, or about 24 lifetimes max.
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adjl
08/05/23 12:09:22 AM
#44:


potdnewb posted...
based on the assumption that we know how much c14 is absorbed by an organism over its lifetime yes im saying the standard is still an assumption since we have learned that observed absorption rate is variable

It's not a question of how much C14 is absorbed over its lifetime. The proportion of C12 to C14 is roughly constant within the environment, and for a living organism that's constantly cycling out the carbon it contains for new stuff (whether directly from the environment by consuming CO2, or adding a trophic level or two to get it via larger macromolecules), that means the proportion of C12 to C14 in their bodies will match environmental proportions pretty closely. When they die, however, they stop replacing the carbon they contain with new carbon from the environment, and given that their corpses aren't hanging out in the upper atmosphere to be bombarded by cosmic rays, that means the C14 they contain will decay to Nitrogen and not be replaced. Over time, this means there will be less C14 relative to C12 than what we see in the environment.

This does rely on the assumption that the environmental proportion of C12 to C14 has remained roughly constant, but given that the only way it would fluctuate significantly is with a significant change in the amount of cosmic rays entering the atmosphere (such as poking a hole in the ozone layer by using too much spraypaint) and such events do leave records, that's a fairly safe assumption unless there's evidence to the contrary. It's certainly not perfect, but it gives a reasonable ballpark figure.

potdnewb posted...
still based on assumed standards

What problems do you have with those assumptions?

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potdnewb
08/05/23 3:08:44 AM
#45:


adjl posted...


What problems do you have with those assumptions?
assumed truths may be false
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kind9
08/05/23 5:04:49 AM
#46:


potdnewb posted...
assumed truths may be false
Go read Answers in Genesis if you want to pretend anybody has the absolute truth of reality. Otherwise what an utterly meaningless statement.

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potdnewb
08/05/23 5:09:25 AM
#47:


kind9 posted...
Go read Answers in Genesis if you want to pretend anybody has the absolute truth of reality. Otherwise what an utterly meaningless statement.
I'm not the way claiming any knowledge of absolute truth but others are definitely claiming science is absolute truth while ignoring the inherent uncertainty of their belief
one could even go so far as saying their belief in science is based on faith
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GranTurismo
08/05/23 5:25:55 AM
#48:


potdnewb posted...
I'm not the way claiming any knowledge of absolute truth but others are definitely claiming science is absolute truth while ignoring the inherent uncertainty of their belief
one could even go so far as saying their belief in science is based on faith
oh are you an extremely religious guy? is that one of the reasons that you say you doubt radiometric dating so much?
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potdnewb
08/05/23 5:40:21 AM
#49:


GranTurismo posted...
oh are you an extremely religious guy? is that one of the reasons that you say you doubt radiometric dating so much?
i only doubt it as much as any reasonable person should doubt that which is fraught with uncertainty
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Whiterun_Guard_
08/05/23 8:05:32 AM
#50:


potdnewb posted...
i only doubt it as much as any reasonable person should doubt that which is fraught with uncertainty
You didn't do well in chemistry, did you?

Did you roll your eyes every time your teacher said anything, the enlightened skeptic? This is very basic stuff. This is based on simple stuff our entire understanding of physics is based on.
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