Current Events > If the Christian God was real, wouldn't he certainly intervene if something like

(+) Yeah! (+)

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No, I haven't. Other theoretical universes could exist by the nature of "free will minus suffering", and it could very well be eternal hell for conscious beings such as us. However, it is maximized happiness for the beings of that universe.

When we as humans, or any other beings, are limited, that means we must adhere to a limited set of conditions. Our conditions indicate that this universe is the most optimal universe for our own happiness. To answer your after life question, maybe we learn and grow and die, and then move onto a different universe with different sets of laws and happenings that maximize our happiness even further. We cannot jump from a universe such as this, to a potential universe like "free will minus suffering", without it completely making our existence a living hell. At least, it is what I personally believe that doesn't invalidate the existence of an infinite being nor does it disprove the notion that it isn't "mad".

So you've successfully hallucinated a multiverse that agrees with your incredibly narrow mindset and taken it as winning the argument.

DrizztLink posted...

So you've successfully hallucinated a multiverse that agrees with your incredibly narrow mindset and taken it as winning the argument.

Did I do this? I don't believe I have. I have only explained my personal interpretation of my own spirituality and understanding of how things beyond the universe could work with the presumption of an infinite being. I have not claimed any of what I said is true nor have I claimed it to be the only possibility I would ever entertain.

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How does an infinite being put limited beings in a box that could have potentially an infinite amount of physical behaviors and natural inclinations in regards to "consciousness", most of which our own limited minds couldn't understand? It cannot do so in a way that is infinite, because then we'd be infinite beings ourselves.
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Maybe he has? And that's where our souls are going next? Maybe it's slightly better, but for us to go from our previous universe it would have been slightly worse?

What if our collective consciousness grows and understands to a point where we concede free will, and live in an eternity of happiness? There's multiple degrees to this.
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It is though. Because it is an infinite being managing an infinite set of circumstances that impact a limited number of states of consciousness. Our set of circumstances lines up perfectly with how our souls want it, even if our consciousness won't allow it. Somehow if we live and suffer in this universe, we still experienced more "joy" in this one than we did in the previous. And so on, and so on.

It's not that this theoretical being cares about harmful bacteria's right to freedom either. That's a misinterpretation of my point. My point is that in order to have free will, quantum states need to exist. Bacteria has quantum states. That is technically "freedom". Just like we technically have "freedom", but really it's just our mind's understanding of manipulating quantum states.

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Because we run the world. God created this so we can live our lives. Now, He made us imperfect, most of us are a mix of both good and evil. And it all goes on, and on, till the end. And, no one can know how that will happen, but people love to speculate.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

Why are you so vehemently against the idea of an infinite being beyond the understanding of the human mind existing? It can't be proven, and it can't hurt anybody. If people use that spirituality to become a better person and have a further understanding in science and the ways of the universe, is that a bad thing?

Why did you insist on running in here when the last 50 or so posts had nothing to do with defending the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God?

You do realize bacteria, cells, and matter have a choice too? They may be binary choices, but anything that invokes a state of change in this universe comes down to a "choice", or a quantum superposition becoming unraveled.

A child is not "choosing" to get cancer. The universe, through a perpetual state of actions and consequences, chose for the child to get cancer. Just like we as human beings can choose to help the child and cure it of cancer, and work together to come to a cure for cancer so we don't have to rely on chemotherapy.

God didn't just give human beings free will. If we were the only ones that had free will, the entire universe would be immutable. We are a collection of atoms. We ain't special.

And theoretical God is fucking evil because the deaths of hundreds of millions of innocent people are a small price to pay for him to give fucking bacteria (and the weather?) "free will" and to allow human beings to choose to rape, torture and murder each other. And this god is supposedly loving yet he created a world that doesn't matter to him and allow us to feel so much pain, some of us: unending pain, because our lives are also insignificant.

But it's good that people in this unprovable, invisible, murderous being because it "gives us purpose and helps us understand science"? I feel the opposite of purpose or hope from the god you describe.

And you can't even give me an actual reason why there should be a being beyond our comprehension that can't be sensed or proven by that same science beyond "How could there not be and wouldn't that be kind of cool?" Living in the Elder Scrolls universe may be cool, but it literally doesn't exist and you'd get funny looks if you just insisted it's real if you go beyond the senses.

Also, you said belief in God can't hurt anyone, but human history proves that is incredibly untrue, even if literally every religious person isn't hurting others.

If God is real, he literally doomed me to damnation by making me physically unable to believe.

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This God knows that without hardship, we cannot grow.

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I didnt mean to say all suffering is man made, the point is, it is up to us(as a species) to get on, and learn from our struggles.

mustachedmystic posted...

So, God cures some kids bone cancer, what about that kid with leukemia? Would a loving God cure those 2 kids, but not everyone else? Of course not, but what about other fatal chronic diseases? So this loving God rids us of all deadly disease? What about less deadly ailments. Keep extrapolating that out, and we eventually arrive at paradise. Life is supposed to be hard, and sometimes painful.

Why?

But sure, go tell the families of dead victims of horrible, fatal diseases that God creates unbearable suffering so that the survivors might build character. Maybe we have enough character and he can stop the body count before it hits trillions. If this life is insignificant, then why have suffering at all? Does God need dead children? Does he need to see X amount of rape and murder so he can ship off a number of souls to Hell to avoid overcrowding when Revelation happens?

mustachedmystic posted...

I didnt mean to say all suffering is man made, the point is, it is up to us(as a species) to get on, and learn from our struggles.

But what if all our struggles are his fault in the first place? Tons of dead people never did anything wrong? But God let them suffer to their last breath because they weren't as important as him teaching the rest of us lesson? It's not like everyone has learned it. Surely he knew people wouldn't ever stop committing acts of hatred and violence. What is the point of any of this? Just letting people die at the hands of others' free will or acts of nature beyond any control.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

This isn't really relevant when it comes to the discussion of whether or not a being gave us free will. Free will as we understand it implies people can make bad decisions. Divine retribution implies that making such decisions would be met with consequence in an afterlife.

The victims of those bad decisions didn't make the decision to fucking die, but I guess who cares about their wants and their dreams? Hopefully they were on God's good side before they were murdered!

There's no reason to speak as if your beliefs have any scientific backing. You're literally guessing that you not only picked the right God, but interpreted his unknowable word correctly. Why does religious belief get to conveniently exist outside of our comprehension, outside of the laws of our universe that everything else must follow?

I say elves don't exist and everyone goes "No shit. We'd have found elves by now".

I say God doesn't exist and I get "You're a rude, judgmental jerk that can't think outside your narrow human lens! Of course we can't prove God with science or the senses! He's beyond our minds!"

SayHeyyShohei posted...

Do you want free will? Because this is how you abolish free will.

I'm tired of the "suffering exists so God doesn't love you" argument.

This is not the great defense you think it is.

Too bad you you don't like it. The Christian God assuming he exists, created the universe that way. Therefore he created world where babies suffer. So yes, people are right to criticize the idea of "God loves them."

If your God exists, your God either created this flawed system intentionally by design, or he just doesn't give a shit. Either way, the excuse of "free will excuses away suffering" is not a great defense for why it exists.

hockeybub89 posted...

The victims of those bad decisions didn't make the decision to fucking die, but I guess who cares about their wants and their dreams? Hopefully they were on God's good side before they were murdered!

There's no reason to speak as if your beliefs have any scientific backing. You're literally guessing that you not only picked the right God, but interpreted his unknowable word correctly. Why does religious belief get to conveniently exist outside of our comprehension, outside of the laws of our universe that everything else must follow?

I say elves don't exist and everyone goes "No shit. We'd have found elves by now".

I say God doesn't exist and I get "You're a rude, judgmental jerk that can't think outside your narrow human lens! Of course we can't prove God with science or the senses! He's beyond our minds!"

Also this lol.

hockeybub89 posted...

The victims of those bad decisions didn't make the decision to fucking die, but I guess who cares about their wants and their dreams? Hopefully they were on God's good side before they were murdered!

There's no reason to speak as if your beliefs have any scientific backing. You're literally guessing that you not only picked the right God, but interpreted his unknowable word correctly. Why does religious belief get to conveniently exist outside of our comprehension, outside of the laws of our universe that everything else must follow?

I say elves don't exist and everyone goes "No shit. We'd have found elves by now".

I say God doesn't exist and I get "You're a rude, judgmental jerk that can't think outside your narrow human lens! Of course we can't prove God with science or the senses! He's beyond our minds!"

For fuck's sake read the fucking topic. Every single one of your screaming tantrums was discussed already beyond the point of what you're actually capable of listening to without having a complete meltdown.

Gladius I'll get back to you. It's late. I appreciate the debate.

hockeybub89 posted...

Also, you said belief in God can't hurt anyone, but human history proves that is incredibly untrue, even if literally every religious person isn't hurting others.

You're conflating religion/cults with God, and you expect any of us to entertain your tantrums? No one in here is vouching for any religion.

It looks like you have some internal things you should deal with first before having a discussion about someone's spirituality. If you're going to fly off the handle and blame people like me and others who don't abide by holy texts or human lies, and instead just want to be spiritual and seek happiness and a universal truth, you are not equipped to engage in these discussions.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

You're conflating religion/cults with God, and you expect any of us to entertain your tantrums? No one in here is vouching for any religion.

It looks like you have some internal things you should deal with first before having a discussion about someone's spirituality. If you're going to fly off the handle and blame people like me and others who don't abide by holy texts or human lies, and instead just want to be spiritual and seek happiness and a universal truth, you are not equipped to engage in these discussions.

How am I supposed to fix my issues when God took away my free will by making me incapable of believing in the spiritual? Besides, aren't there universes where I am having this discussion in a way that pleases you? And the only reason anyone even thinks there is a God beyond our comprehension or the scientific method is because of religion.

I and probably a lot of other people would easily sacrifice some aspects of "free will" to stop having children raped and diseases torture people for years until the mercy of death.

hockeybub89 posted...

How am I supposed to fix my issues when God took away my free will by making me incapable of believing in the spiritual?

What made you come to this conclusion? If you don't have free will, you believe in determinism. Which means this entire argument is pointless. So why the fuck are you engaging in it other than your direct path was to be as unavoidably obtuse and annoying as possible?

hockeybub89 posted...

I and probably a lot of other people would easily sacrifice some aspects of "free will" to stop having children raped and diseases torture people for years until the mercy of death.

Here's a thought experiment. What aspects of free will would you remove from the equation that would prevent your loaded example? How do you logically go about doing that? And if free will doesn't exist, the philosophical question becomes - does it even matter? That's a pretty cynical outlook.

hockeybub89 posted...

And the only reason anyone even thinks there is a God beyond our comprehension or the scientific method is because of religion.

There is nothing in the scientic method that eliminates the possibility of "God", or the explanation thereof of how things came to be and if there are higher entities outside this universe. You can believe in science while simultaneously believing in God if you should choose. You could also believe in something totally different. None of it is verifiably correct or can be proven. That's the whole idea of faith and spirituality.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

Here's a thought experiment. What aspects of free will would you remove from the equation that would prevent your loaded example? How do you logically go about doing that? And if free will doesn't exist, the philosophical question becomes - does it even matter? That's a pretty cynical outlook.

The thought experiment doesn't work as your logic assumes a bunch of things are true so that you can explain away the massive flaws in design.

Something that anyone who isn't religious isn't just forced to just believe for no logical reason.

So when asking about "free will" being taken away there's a multitude issues in arguing this angle. The problems/bad things being brought up are not a must to keep free will. You're just kind of ignoring that. We don't need things like murder, rape, torture, death of babies, and any other autrocities if this Christian God designed the universe without those stuff and kept free will and progress. All of these problems are by God's intentional design to be, bad.

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Something something "it's all part of god's plan for us" something something.

That's how they justify it.

RyukSan posted...

We don't need things like murder, rape, torture, death of babies, and any other autrocities if this Christian God designed the universe without those stuff and kept free will and progress in its design. All of these problems are by God's intentional design to exist, and is ofc bad.

It doesn't have to be the Christian God. These things exist in spite of that.

Again, how do you get rid of these things? Without death, the world would be overpopulated and all the resources would run out. Unless you expect there to be infinite resources, and then you open the floodgates with "well why didn't God just make us infinite beings as well", which to me sounds like a burden considering we would all have infinite negative energy beyond our comprehension. So as it stands, we live in a limited world. Death needs to be a part of it in order for us to not suffer for eternity. We are not even sure if reincarnation or an afterlife exists, so death could purely be a transition stage in our consciousness.

How do you get rid of rape? We need sex to reproduce. We have free will to reproduce. By eliminating our free will in this case, we remove consent. How is that any better? Imagine you are forced to have sex without any input. We get to choose, and unfortunately that means we have to deal with horrible people like rapists. Again, logically pick a scenario where free will exists without rape. You can't, unless you force sex or eliminate sex all together, which is a slippery slope to remove love and intimacy all together.

Everyone loves to blame God for all this shit when it's humans that create most of these evils, and as for the rest (natural disasters, disease, etc) it happens because if they didn't, the universe itself would be immutable and we wouldn't be able to interact with it. Nobody considers the potential hell invoked without free will, with limited free will, or free will to engage with absolutely nothing.

@Gladius_ I promise I'll get back to you, just dealing with the usual disinginuous arguments.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

It doesn't have to be the Christian God. These things exist in spite of that.

Again, how do you get rid of these things? Without death, the world would be overpopulated and all the resources would run out. Unless you expect there to be infinite resources, and then you open the floodgates with "well why didn't God just make us infinite beings as well", which to me sounds like a burden considering we would all have infinite negative energy beyond our comprehension. So as it stands, we live in a limited world. Death needs to be a part of it in order for us to not suffer for eternity. We are not even sure if reincarnation or an afterlife exists, so death could purely be a transition stage in our consciousness.

How do you get rid of rape? We need sex to reproduce. We have free will to reproduce. By eliminating our free will in this case, we remove consent. How is that any better? Imagine you are forced to have sex without any input. We get to choose, and unfortunately that means we have to deal with horrible people like rapists. Again, logically pick a scenario where free will exists without rape. You can't, unless you force sex or eliminate sex all together, which is a slippery slope to remove love and intimacy all together.

Everyone loves to blame God for all this shit when it's humans that create most of these evils, and as for the rest (natural disasters, disease, etc) it happens because if they didn't, the universe itself would be immutable and we wouldn't be able to interact with it. Nobody considers the potential hell invoked without free will, with limited free will, or free will to engage with absolutely nothing.

@Gladius_ I promise I'll get back to you, just dealing with the usual disinginuous arguments.

None of the things you are saying dodges the overbearing fact that your God designed it to be this way.

All concepts of needed consequences and problems that exist are problems created by the design of your God.

Under your pretense that the Christian God exists in the first place (as no evidence backs it as of yet), everyone loves to blame God for shit because he created the universe with these problems. Under the pretense that your God created the universe and its laws of physics, that means he created all of its flaws, all of its problems, all of its necessary and unnecessary functions. There does not have to be death, finite resources, rape, murder, death of babies, war, sex, death, overpopulation, needing food, pollution, all laws of physics, etc. These are all concepts by design. You are trying to tell people to use logic, when your entire logic and rational is to ignore all logic to rationalize why we absolutely must accept your God existence and his intentional flawed design of which he created, just because.

You just don't like the fact that your God that you want us to assume exists didnt intentionally created a flawed universe for humans on this planet.

Literal baby dies sending parents into spiraling depression

"It's all in God's plan hahahaha"

You don't even need infinite resources. You just need to make it so we don't have to eat or die. If you don't want to live forever, then there should be a way to circumvent that too. If god is all-powerful, then it can do it. If it can't do it, then it's not all-powerful - It's potentially as flawed as you and me. Therefore there is no need to worship it. That's like worshipping the owner of a company just because they created the company, even though they're just a human with the good and bad.

If god can do it but doesn't want to, then it's either evil or true neutral. My guess is it's probably some kind of scientist that wants to watch everything unfold.

Overall god is not trustworthy. Don't blindly trust something with too much power. Human or god. Live a good life and help other people. It's a near infinite universe. If a god exists it probably doesn't even know we exist. There have been millions of species that have come and gone over time on Earth. We only think we're special and that god has plans for us, but let's be real. He doesn't. Every life form that exists in this universe is on its own. You can add aliens to that list as well. There's probably millions of alien civilizations out there. Does god have a plan for them too? Nah, I don't think so. No one knows for sure what the point of life and the universe is, but what I do know is that we're on our own and we need to help each other and survive. God isn't there to help us, and never will.

RyukSan posted...

None of the things you are saying dodges the overbearing fact that your God designed it to be this way

Already addressed. Please read the answers to your question on the previous page.

RyukSan posted...

All concepts of needed consequences and problems that exist are problems created by the design of your God

Again, already addressed.

RyukSan posted...

Under your pretense that the Christian God exists in the first place

I am not arguing in favor of the Christian God. You have a lot of work to do. Please don't ask me to repeat answers to questions I've answered already especially when you are not up to speed on where the argument even is. You are assuming my position and arguing from there. That is disingenuous.

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It is though, because they are asking questions that already have been answered and are assuming positions I have not declared nor have made relevant to the current debate. By jumping into the topic at his convenience and doing this, he does not respect my right to debate, he only respects his right to be correct.

Touch posted...

Literal baby dies sending parents into spiraling depression

"It's all in God's plan hahahaha"

Nobody in this topic is saying this. Not sure why you are bringing up this disingenuous strawman.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

Already addressed. Please read the answers to your question on the previous page.

Again, already addressed.

I am not arguing in favor of the Christian God. You have a lot of work to do. Please don't ask me to repeat answers to questions I've answered already especially when you are not up to speed on where the argument even is. You are assuming my position and arguing from there. That is disingenuous.

To clarify, any questions I asked were all rhetorical. Even then, you didn't answer any of those rhetorical questions. You just insert concepts that ignores the overbearing flaw that shatters your religious belief that you God created a flawed world intentionally.

You said absolutely that changed the absolute fact that if God created the universe, and created the universes laws of physics..... then this God intentionally created a flawed system. Death, food, and whatever else you literally post are all concepts necessary by God's intentionally flawed design under any pretense whatsoever that God created the universe and its laws of physics.

How does an infinite being create a system for limited beings while also maximizing positive benefit upon sentient beings with the obstacle of it having to be limited?

I've illustrated what this could look like earlier. Please go back. I'm not repeating myself.

RyukSan posted...

Rape did not have to be a thing, it was a intentionally made a thing.

Was it? We have sex. We have free will. You do understand we have a conundrum here right? Logically, rape has to exist. You cannot have the choice to do something that involves another party without there being the possibility the other party never wanted it. To argue otherwise is a paradox.

You either want forced sex (determinism), or no sex at all. You are making an even greater hell with the first, and are eliminating a critical component of the human experience with the latter.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

How does an infinite being create a system for limited beings while also maximizing positive benefit upon sentient beings with the obstacle of it having to be limited?

I've illustrated what this could look like earlier. Please go back. I'm not repeating myself.

I don't need to go back and reread your posts as it's just more of the same. You not wanting to accept intentionally bad design.

You for example asked how do we get rid of rape.... Yet dodging the fact the rape itself is a concept created by design under any pretense God is this all might powerful being who created the universe, its laws of physics, and concepts. Rape did not have to be a thing, it was a intentionally made a thing. Malicious nature was a creation. There does not have to be malicious acts.

Under any concept that God created the universe, any concepts that you think is "free will" is all concepts created.

The above applies to your question I quoted post 237. Life doesn't have to be whatever questions you can concoct in your head. Under any pretense whatsoever that God created the universe, it's laws of physics, it's concepts, it's necessary functions, it's unnecessary functions, the bad, the good, literally whatever. This God could have literally created the Marvel universe, One Piece Universe, a universe of self sustaining being who are complete saints, universes that some users have touched on in this topic. Instead this God created a universe with intentional flaws.

RyukSan posted...

Rape did not have to be a thing, it was a intentionally made a thing.

God did not create rape. Humans created rape with free will. I have explained the paradox twice now and you keep deflecting to "no God made rape" without explaining how he made rape.

Until you start arguing in good faith, I'm not addressing any more of your posts.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

God did not create rape. Humans created rape with free will. I have explained the paradox twice now and you keep deflecting to "no God made rape" without explaining how he made rape.

You can say this as many times as you want.

Under any pretense that any all mighty God created the universe, and its laws of physics, God created rape. God created and designed something that had flaws and intentionally left it that way. Which includes the flawed creation that one can force sex.

God could have even created humans to not even need sex at all with sex not even being a thing at all. Yet God did.

You just don't like your God created something with a very flawed design. People like you have a hard time swallowing God assuming he even exists did something intentionally flawed, or accidentally flawed and not willing to fix it.

RyukSan posted...

You can say this as many times as you want.

Under any pretense that any all mighty God created the universe, and its laws of physics, God created rape. God created and designed something that had flaws and intentionally left it that way. Which includes the flawed creation that one can force sex.

You just don't like your God created something with a very flawed design. People like you have a hard time swallowing God assuming he even exists did something intentionally flawed, or accidentally flawed and not willing to fix it.

No, you're definitely the guy having trouble with this. The Bible is something you should probably take a peek at before getting into these kinds of conversations.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

No, you're definitely the guy having trouble with this. The Bible is something you should probably take a peek at before getting into these kinds of conversations.

If your answer is point at the Bible, you're a prime example of what I'm talking about.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

No, you're definitely the guy having trouble with this. The Bible is something you should probably take a peek at before getting into these kinds of conversations.

Is that the book where god impregnated Mary?

RyukSan posted...

If your answer is point at the Bible, you're a prime example of what I'm talking about.

Oh gee, I suggested you read the text that describes the God you're making statements about. How insane an idea is that? Reading? How will I live with myself?

This is just middle schooler Bible bashing.

RyukSan posted...

To clarify, any questions I asked were all rhetorical. Even then, you didn't answer any of those rhetorical questions. You just insert concepts that ignores the overbearing flaw that challenges your religious belief that any concept of your God intentionally created a flawed world.

You said absolutely nothing that changed the absolute fact that if God created the universe, and created the universes laws of physics..... then this God intentionally created a flawed system. Death, food, rape, sex and whatever else you literally post are all concepts necessary by God's intentionally flawed design under any pretense whatsoever that God created the universe and its laws of physics.

You for example asked how do we get rid of rape.... YetI dodging the fact the rape itself is a concept created by design under any pretense God is this all might powerful being who created the universe, its laws of physics, and concepts. Rape did not have to be a thing, it was a intentionally made a thing.

I've always believed if there was a higher power, it would be a sadistic one.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

Oh gee, I suggested you read the text that describes the God you're making statements about. How insane an idea is that? Reading? How will I live with myself?

This is just middle schooler Bible bashing.

I grew up Catholic. I read the thing.

Again, if your position is reading the Bible is supposed to make things better, you are a prime example of what I'm talking about.

Pointing at that book of all books doesn't help at all beyond highly religious people.

RyukSan posted...

I grew up Catholic. I read the thing.

Again, if your position is reading the Bible is supposed to make things better, you are a prime example of what I'm talking about.

I didn't say it makes things better, Mr. Honesty.

I said you'd have an understanding that wouldn't lead you to babbling in circles ignoring other posters that don't agree with you.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

I didn't say it makes things better, Mr. Honesty.

I said you'd have an understanding that wouldn't lead you to babbling in circles ignoring other posters that don't agree with you.

I have plenty of understanding of the great Book of Contradictions.

As for babbling in circles, the irony.