Current Events > Pokemon Stadium 2 is utter bullshit. Move selected determines if opponent Crits

(+) Yeah! (+)

>save state
>Use Counter
>Opponent crits, fainting me
>reload
>Same scenario, same result
>reload
>use Destiny Bond
>No opponent crit

Went back and tried Counter several times, all crits.

I've seen plenty RNG before but never something like this.

Also, unless its just a NSO thing to prevent save state abuse, the RNG knows confusion and move outcomes multiple turns ahead

wackyteen posted...

>save state
>Use Counter
>Opponent crits, fainting me
>reload
>Same scenario, same result
>reload
>use Destiny Bond
>No opponent crit

Went back and tried Counter several times, all crits.

I've seen plenty RNG before but never something like this.

Also, unless its just a NSO thing to prevent save state abuse, the RNG knows confusion and move outcomes multiple turns ahead

If the RNG can't neither be predicted nor manipulated by the user at will, it's no bullshit but working as it should.

Yeah this was already uncovered like 10 years ago that pokemon stadium 2 cheats. The AI cheats and explicitly bases its attacks on your moves. It was all over the forums

Revisited posted...

Yeah this was already uncovered like 10 years ago that pokemon stadium 2 cheats. The AI cheats and explicitly bases its attacks on your moves. It was all over the forums

That's a different issue and definitly bullshit.

I've learned from emulators almost 2 decades ago that cartridge games don't tend to make changes dynamically (not sure I worded that right) or rather don't make changes to the memory until you do. Like what I mean is if I make a save state right before I initiate a random encounter in 3 steps, it's going to be that same random encounter even if I sit there and wait for 20 minutes without moving. However, if I do a different action before doing those 3 steps, it might change.

That's just how Pokemon Stadium rolls because the CPU flows by different turn rules than the handheld games.

Tons of MK2-esque bullshittery which often leads to either stalemate moves or stack speed and KO with a >120dmg attack as fast as possible.

wackyteen posted...

>save state
>Use Counter
>Opponent crits, fainting me
>reload
>Same scenario, same result
>reload
>use Destiny Bond
>No opponent crit

Went back and tried Counter several times, all crits.

I've seen plenty RNG before but never something like this.

Also, unless its just a NSO thing to prevent save state abuse, the RNG knows confusion and move outcomes multiple turns ahead

No this is a normal thing. RNG is deterministic and only advanced based on if a number has to be generated. Different moves generate different amounts of numbers causing the RNG to advance differently based on the move.

I've only played the first one back when and it was BS too. One of the first games I've ever had complete utter contempt for.

I'm not sure why this matters. It's literally only relevant because you used scummy save states to cheat first.

Tyranthraxus posted...

No this is a normal thing. RNG is deterministic and only advanced based on if a number has to be generated. Different moves generate different amounts of numbers causing the RNG to advance differently based on the move.

It amazes me how there are actually people who don't immediately see this when they look at this situation and instead think the game was programmed to cheat.

The number of RPGs where you can play most to all of the entire game while taking advantage of this to manipulate every single AI attack, every crit or miss on either side, every damage roll, every random drop, etc. is not even all that small. Pokemon RBY is even among them.

BurmesePenguin posted...

I'm not sure why this matters. It's literally only relevant because you used scummy save states to cheat first.

I wouldn't be save stating if i wasn't stuck with garbage ass rentals

I mean...does the game always make the opponent crit if you select Counter and their move would faint your pokemon? If not, it seems like an innocent case of RNG.

the_rowan posted...

It amazes me how there are actually people who don't immediately see this when they look at this situation and instead think the game was programmed to cheat.

The number of RPGs where you can play most to all of the entire game while taking advantage of this to manipulate every single AI attack, every crit or miss on either side, every damage roll, every random drop, etc. is not even all that small. Pokemon RBY is even among them.

RBY speedruns use this throughout the whole game to land a bunch of one hit kill moves.

the_rowan posted...

It amazes me how there are actually people who don't immediately see this when they look at this situation and instead think the game was programmed to cheat.

The number of RPGs where you can play most to all of the entire game while taking advantage of this to manipulate every single AI attack, every crit or miss on either side, every damage roll, every random drop, etc. is not even all that small. Pokemon RBY is even among them.

Not everyone RNG manips.

Umbreon posted...

Not everyone RNG manips.

No point in save stating a turn based game if you're not going to manipulate RNG

MisterPengy posted...

I mean...does the game always make the opponent crit if you select Counter and their move would faint your pokemon? If not, it seems like an innocent case of RNG.

It did in my experience over 20 years ago.

Counter and Mirror Coat were practically useless beyond recognition in 3D compared to their 2D iterations because CPU would somehow figure out your counter input which overrides speed stat and then calculate damage from there while increasin crit % to make sure their pkmn survives.

Same goes for suicide moves OP mentioned. Destiny Bond, Explosion, etc is blocked 99% of the time due to detect/protect/endure.

Destiny Bond and Counter just probably burn different numbers of RNs on the string. So using Counter means the opponents attack now lands on a number of the string that let's it crit, while DB burns more/less RNs so the opponents attack is landing on the string either before or after that crit number.

Pokemon Colosseum was awful with Counter/Mirror Coat as well iirc. The AI would always guess correctly on it, making Wob a serious pain. At least in XD it could guess wron

And yeah, that's why in the stadium games Pokemon have weird ass moves just to fuck with the player. You'd use Counter against a Rhydon or something only for it to use Fire Blast or some bullshit.

I mean, when it isn't using 90% accurate OHKO moves.

Compsognathus posted...

Destiny Bond and Counter just probably burn different numbers of RNs on the string. So using Counter means the opponents attack now lands on a number of the string that let's it crit, while DB burns more/less RNs so the opponents attack is landing on the string either before or after that crit number.

Sounds like cheating to me lol

which if the computer cheats, then all bets are off and save stating is more than fair to ensure you can change strategy on the fly instead of having to waste 5+ minutes of your life trudging through animations to see if you get lucky or not

I think modern pokemon does this as well. Savescumming I found out it would choose even if how many rolls a pokeball would make.

Does anyone like fighting a full team of OHKO spammers

Garioshi posted...

Does anyone like fighting a full team of OHKO spammers

I'd rather that than fucking Toxic, Protect spam

"Why save state?"

I just watched 10 alternating turns of Thunder missing and getting flinched with Headbutt by a goddamned Delibird against my Magneton

RNG is never random. Computers cannot do random. Never have and never will. It is always some sort of calculation that simply looks random from an observers perspective.

Even Vegas slot machines are not random. In fact there was a guy in Vegas who won like 12 different jackpots because he worked on the machines and knew when a machine would pay out.

Sometimes I feel like playing these Stadium games just so I can clear everything I couldn't as a kid. Then I remember how s***ty the rentals were and I lose all interest.

Has anyone been able to actually look at the source code and prove that the CPU is cheating, or is it just speculation based on numerous tests in game? Because for all we know, it could be a series of coincidences

I know in FE7 you can advance the RNG state by selecting a character and moving the arrow around a bunch before making your next action.

Maybe you can advance the RNG in stadium by opening and closing various battle menus before making your move.

wackyteen posted...

Sounds like cheating to me lol

which if the computer cheats, then all bets are off and save stating is more than fair to ensure you can change strategy on the fly instead of having to waste 5+ minutes of your life trudging through animations to see if you get lucky or not

I mean that's not cheating, it's just how things with "random" chance frequently work. A string of numbers get generated. Anytime the game needs a random number it uses one of those numbers and then moves to the next number in the sequence to be used when it needs it. In real time this gives the same effect as playing with random numbers. It's only when you reload a save state where the string shows itself. If you reload a save state and do the exact same actions you did before, you'll get the exact same result because you are landing on the number string the same way. But if you reload it and do something different and that action uses more numbers then your going to land on the string in different places and get the same result.

You reloading and using Counter over and over again keeps getting you the same result because nothing is changing. When you use a different move it changes because you are hitting the string differently.

I'm not saying the game doesn't cheat, it does but it's cheating is more built on input readings than random number manipulation.

wackyteen posted...

"Why save state?"

I just watched 10 alternating turns of Thunder missing and getting flinched with Headbutt by a goddamned Delibird against my Magneton

Sounds like you cheated.

Garioshi posted...

Does anyone like fighting a full team of OHKO spammers

"C'mon Hit!"

pojr posted...

Has anyone been able to actually look at the source code and prove that the CPU is cheating, or is it just speculation based on numerous tests in game? Because for all we know, it could be a series of coincidences

AI knows when chance based moves are going to kick in (It knows when it's going to cause a flinch, knows when it's going to hit/crit, etc) and acts on that.

Imagine you're using a water type vs a another water type(That isn't part Ice). You have Ice Beam, and a move that deals normal damage. The opposing Pokemon doesn't threaten you.

Most players, if staying in, would probably go for the neutral damage move. Or at least attempt a predicted switch. Now imagine if you knew when Ice Beam would freeze. The AI knows.

Yeah pretty much, and it was discovered before reddit was as big as it now is so since then lot of other users have messed with the mechanics to determine the truth behind the whole thing.

Pokemon Crystal battle tower is kaizo level hard