Board 8 > KP's Top 100 Games (Win $5 For Guessing Right)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Cast chemistry is a good buzzword. I should use that! Agree that FFX does that well, too. Even the characters that don't really stand out on their own have good interactions.

KamikazePotato posted...

Like, it's a problem, but every damn Visual Novel seems to have pacing issues as well. I legitimately can't think of one that doesn't fumble this outside of the original Phoenix Wright trilogy.

I can think of several with none but they're all OELVNs

Kenri posted...

I can think of several with none but they're all OELVNs

I assume all the ones you're thinking of are also extremely short. Short Japanese VNs like Saya no Uta and Planetarian are also free from pacing issues.

To me, having characters who play off of each other well might be more important than having every character be fully fleshed out, which is why I'll still argue FFVIII has a good cast.

Games that do both well get bonus points though, like Mass Effect 3.

"Extremely" short is maybe overselling it but yeah they're all in the 1-10 hour range.

I guess it is kinda circular reasoning to point at short VNs and say these ones don't have pacing issues. Like, duh.

Haha yeah extremely is exaggerating, but <10 hour VNs have an easier task for sure.

Round 7 Hints

31. My favorite Supergiant game. Reminder: Hades was already on the list.

32. The truth is shrouded in fog. Reach out to it.

33. A sequel where after beating it once, you get to revisit the map of the first game, then fight the original main character as the final boss.

34. Didn't have thalassophobia before? Well, now you do!

35. Inspired by Majora's Mask, which the title makes extremely clear.

36. F...K...in the coffee...

37. A duology of stealth games. The first game had one playable character, and its sequel had two. Not counting DLC for this hint.

38. OBJECTION!

39. An open world game that, after the tutorial area is over, lets you head straight for the final boss if you want.

40. The main character legitimately believes that a dual-sword style is inherently better than a single-sword style, because two swords must be twice as strong as one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uKIeamPi2Y

Guesses sent

Actually feel pretty good about most of these for a change...!

other than 31 (which is unsurprisingly a dice roll) and 35, I'm pretty confident

31 is a test of how well you know KP

Maybe #31 is Hades again because it's just that good

up

I was the one who got the Hi Fi Rush clue wrong. I overthought the clue as Bayonetta 3 has a rhythm section, and Hideki Kamiya created both Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, so Rhythm May Cry made me think of that connection.

I don't remember which clue it was, but I overthought an earlier clue as well. My first thought for it was Kingdom Hearts: Melody of Memory because there was a streamer playing the game who used Bury the Light to cover up any audio that might get copyright struck, and it became enough of an injoke that Bury the Light was modded into the game as a custom song. I then realized I was way overthinking it and changed my guess to something else before submitting it, which turned out to be the correct answer.

And up. Will give this two more days.

I'll send my guesses soon, it's been a busy week for me!

Guesses sent

(and bump i guess)

Bit swamped with work right now, but I'll post the results as soon as I can. If someone sneaks in a last-minute submission I'll probably count it unless I'm seconds away from posting.

Round 7 Results

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12 people submitted guesses.
The most common score was 8 / 10.
The average score was 8 / 10. Exactly.

Yeah I definitely made this one too easy. Two questions ended up being significantly harder than everything else.

The most interesting bit of data is actually that two of the people who scored 9/10 missed a question that no one else did.

--

Hint:
31. My favorite Supergiant game. Reminder: Hades was already on the list.

Answers:
Pyre 5
Bastion 5
Transistor 2

I feel kind of bad for this one, because I used to talk up Bastion when it came out but haven't mentioned Pyre as much. With that said, as years have gone by, Bastion felt less special (although it barely missed the honorable mentions) while Pyre left a big mark on me.

--

Hint:
32. The truth is shrouded in fog. Reach out to it.

Answers:
Persona 4 11
Genshin Impact 1

Probably made this too on-the-nose with 'reach out to it'.

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Hint:
33. A sequel where after beating it once, you get to revisit the map of the first game, then fight the original main character as the final boss.

Answers:
Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal 11
Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow 1

Dawn of Sorrow was not a guess I would have expected, but it actually fits!

--

Hint:
34. Didn't have thalassophobia before? Well, now you do!

Answers:
Subnautica 10
Soma 1

Fuck the Reaper Leviathans.

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Hint:
35. Inspired by Majora's Mask, which the title makes extremely clear.

Answers:
Fear & Hunger 2: Termina 3
Kena: Bridge of Spirits 2
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 1
Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII 1
Witcher 3 1
UNSIGHTED 1
Torment: Tides of Numenara 1
Raging Loop 1

The bloodbath question of this round. Interesting guesses all-around, but only one game literally has Termina in the title.

--

Hint:
36. F...K...in the coffee...

Answers:
Deadly Premonition 12

Knew this hint was too easy, but I couldn't resist.

--

Hint:
37. A duology of stealth games. The first game had one playable character, and its sequel had two. Not counting DLC for this hint.

Answers:
Dishonored 9
Metal Gear Solid 2
Tenchu 1

If you didn't know Dishonored, this was basically 'pick a stealth game and pray'.

--

Hint:
38. OBJECTION!

Answers:
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney 12

Meant to be a freebie. Wouldn't have been a freebie if I knew how well people would do this round!

--

Hint:
39. An open world game that, after the tutorial area is over, lets you head straight for the final boss if you want.

Answers:
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 11
Chrono Trigger 1

I'll let one submitter speak for themselves:
"can't wait to regret not just going with a safe BotW pick for #39!"

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Hint:
40. The main character legitimately believes that a dual-sword style is inherently better than a single-sword style, because two swords must be twice as strong as one.

Answers:
Tales of Symphonia 12

This one really surprised me. Didn't know that Lloyd's flawless logic was that well-remembered here.

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Which makes the Mac Arrowny the winner of Round 7, with a score of 10/10! The only perfect score, actually, despite how well everyone did. I think at this point Mac has earned enough prize winnings for a celebratory dinner at a low scale restaurant.

Game writeups will be posted either later today or tomorrow.

Woo, finally got a 10! I was gonna guess Outer Worlds for the Majora's Mask inspired game, but then I happened to google "termina game" and it came up, haha. Would've been easy if I'd looked up Fear & Hunger 2's name earlier, since I knew it'd be on the list!

KamikazePotato posted...

I'll let one submitter speak for themselves:
"can't wait to regret not just going with a safe BotW pick for #39!"

I do regret it. That was the only one I missed! But imagine if I had been right...!

MacArrowny posted...

Woo, finally got a 10! I was gonna guess Outer Worlds for the Majora's Mask inspired game, but then I happened to google "termina game" and it came up, haha. Would've been easy if I'd looked up Fear & Hunger 2's name earlier, since I knew it'd be on the list!

I was probably going to go with The Forgotten City until I saw a random Steam forum post comparing F&H2 with Majora's Mask buried in like page 3 of my Google results

KamikazePotato posted...

I think at this point Mac has earned enough prize winnings for a celebratory dinner at a low scale restaurant.

maybe a big mac

fun fact i do not like big macs

but i do like mac and cheese

KamikazePotato posted...

If you didn't know Dishonored, this was basically 'pick a stealth game and pray'.

Yeah, I figured it probably wasn't MSG 1 & 2 due to the DLC part and because it's a bit odd to combine them, but I figured I'd try since I didn't feel like doing a lot of searching to find a better match.

KamikazePotato posted...

The bloodbath question of this round. Interesting guesses all-around, but only one game literally has Termina in the title.

I'd never heard of Fear & Hunger and it's cost me twice so far

I got everything right except the Subnautica because I thought Subnautica would be too easy. ><

Very busy, so will post half the writeups today and half tomorrow.

40. Tales of Symphonia
Symphonia hit every RPG-starved-Nintendo-kid like a nuclear warhead. I fully recognize that its high position on this list is largely due to the massive nostalgia I have for it. Back then, especially in circles on B8, this game felt like an event.

Has it held up now that I've gone on to play a ton of other RPGs?...Honestly, more than one might assume. Tales of Symphonia does a lot right. The story, while containing many cliches, mixes them together in a way that feels interesting. It gets some criticism for being very similar to FFX in certain ways, but past the halfway point I think the plot diverges into something wholly unique. This is helped by the charming cast of characters, who have strong personalities that play off each other in fun ways.

Everything else is done well too. The battle system has been iterated upon and eclipsed by later Tales entries, but it's still more fun than the majority of RPGs coming out today. The music is Sakuraba's best. The pacing is strong throughout. While Symphonia is somewhat lacking in big standout moments, at its core, I think almost everything about the game is at least above-average.

Its biggest issue by far is age. This is definitely an early 2000s game in terms of presentation and cutscene direction. It desperately needs a remake. Like, a good remake; not a shoddy port that's worse than the original.

39. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
I've played a lot of open-world games. I've played a lot of Zelda games. Despite that, Breath of the Wild still felt special. I loved exploring every corner of the world, playing with the physics, and uncovering the nonlinear story. I even liked weapon durability, as it forced me to continuously try out new things inside of forever sticking with whatever sword had the best stats. There was an indefinable joy to messing around in BotW that few other games have managed to capture. I have fond memories of sitting near a fireplace in winter, jacket on, gliding through the air as I searched for new oddities to discover. To me, that represents the essence of this game.

Short writeup, but I don't have much else to say. Some things you just vibe with.

38. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
The game that introduced B8 to its mascot. As a Day 1 adopter, I knew Phoenix Wright was going to be special the moment they started playing awful puns completely straight in Case 1-1. The rest, as we say, is history.

Future games in the series have exceeded the original in complexity, but honestly, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Pacing in Ace Attorney has gotten pretty rough as of late. AA1 delivers almost as many jaw-dropping moments as its successors while also respecting your time (Case 5 aside). 1-4 isn't my favorite case ever, but it's what I would choose if I had to pick an objective best case that is the ultimate total package of what AA is meant to achieve. Edgeworth is at his best in AA1, and so is Phoenix, in some respects.

There are some flaws. Case 1-2's ending is limp and unsatisfying. Case 1-5 has bad pacing - rather telling that it was written well after AA1 originally released. Overall, though, this is maybe the most consistent game in the series.

37. Dishonored 1 & 2
Mostly Dishonored 2. Dishonored 1 has a slightly better atmosphere and felt more fresh, but Dishonored 2 has probably my favorite stealth gameplay of all time. For context: I played D2 on PC shortly after it came out. The port was poorly optimized on launch. My PC was also underpowered. I had to fiddle with the settings for a while to consistently get an FPS of 25, and it would gradually get worse as I played, resulting in me needing to hard reset the game every hour or so because loading times became ridiculous.

I still absolutely loved playing Dishonored 2. No series does stealth better (at least stealth with fantasy powers). Emily's Spiderman-esque powers were super fun to use. I actually thought the plot was kind of dumb, but who cares when D2 has two of the best levels in any game I've ever played? The clockwork fortress and the time travel mansion were incredible. I'd play Dishonored 3 in a heartbeat, especially since the stealth genre is mostly dead and starved for blood.

36. Deadly Premonition
I can't explain what makes Deadly Premonition so good without sounding kinda like a lunatic.

'It's like Twin Peaks' is part of it. That vibe is lovingly recreated while still putting its own spin on things. But in terms of combat, and frame rate, and quest design, and car controls, and lots of design choices that are important to games as a medium? Deadly Premonition fails. It legitimately does not do a lot of things correctly. People that try to extol this game usually to default to the tagline: So Bad It's Good, because the kind of shorthand language necessary to explain what made Deadly Premonition resonate with people sounds obtuse and pretentious.

But I'll try. To start with, Deadly Premonition does have some genuinely strong aspects to it. The music and sound design are extremely proficient at setting the mood, with some songs like Life is Beautiful being very memorable. Additionally, the voice acting and character performances are fantastic. Anyone that's supposed to sound normal sounds normal, and anyone that's supposed to sound offputting sounds weird as hell. York is a standout his VA perfectly encapsulates the off-kilter charisma a character like him needs. Finally, the plot is entertaining throughout, building to an extremely memorable conclusion that I think about to this day.

As for all the bad stuff? Honestly, Deadly Premonition might be a worse game if it was slick and polished. Nothing is detrimental enough that it ruins the experience, and all the little gripes you have while playing just turn into memorable quirks. Sure the combat sucks, and the driving has the literal worst car controls I've ever played, and sometimes the faces look like they were animated by one dude in Gmod. But remembering those parts just makes me smile. The game's atmosphere is intentionally bizarre and invites you to blur your preconceptions of reality, so sure, it makes total sense that York needs to shower or else flies will start swarming you in cutscenes. That's just how his world operates.

In the simplest possible terms, Deadly Premonition is far more than the sum of its parts. We don't talk about the sequel though.

KamikazePotato posted...

Pacing in Ace Attorney has gotten pretty rough as of late. AA1 delivers almost as many jaw-dropping moments as its successors while also respecting your time (Case 5 aside).

This is maybe a hot take but even 1-5 has pretty good pacing compared to some of the post-OT games.

Originally I was a firm 3 > 1 kind of person but each replay makes me appreciate AA1 more. I think I'm with you on 1 > 3 now.

The first half of 1-5 is so utterly uninteresting, which makes the pacing problem that much more noticeable.

Once Marshall takes the stand, the case is great all the way to the end though.

Pacing is the main reason I've held off on diving into the GAA duology. Like, all I've heard is the first entire game is poorly-paced and underwhelming. That's...not a cost-effective use of my time right now!

Leonhart4 posted...

The first half of 1-5 is so utterly uninteresting, which makes the pacing problem that much more noticeable.

Once Marshall takes the stand, the case is great all the way to the end though.

I think Ema carries the first part of that case for me, she's by far my favorite assistant the series has had. I like Lana and Angel too, so maybe it's just the cast in general. ...the less said about Meekins, the better, of course.

KamikazePotato posted...

Pacing is the main reason I've held off on diving into the GAA duology. Like, all I've heard is the first entire game is poorly-paced and underwhelming. That's...not a cost-effective use of my time right now!

BIG mood

though I've gotta finish up Investigations 2 before GAA is even on my radar

Adult Ema is way better

Ema is symptomatic of another of 1-5's problems: It has perhaps the highest fail rate of its jokes of any case in the series, and her jokes in particular fall flat most of the time.

Also it sounds like you've been listening exclusively to LtM when it comes to GAA. The second game is way better, but the first game is good, too. Very oddly structured though, which throws some people off.

Yeah, I think the first GAA is fine. Its lows aren't anywhere near as low as DD's or JFA's. Its main problem is just that its final case isn't anything special.

Eh, regardless of its quality, GAA1 does have some pacing issues. All of its cases (other than 3) would've benefited from being shorter.

Leonhart4 posted...

Adult Ema is way better

Absolutely not (though I appreciate Spirit of Justice trying to repair her character a bit)

I like young Ema and adult Ema both a lot.

She Snackoo'd me

AA4 Ema just reminds me of that "their smile and optimism: gone" meme.

...she's still one of the best characters in that game

Nothing good happens to anyone in that game

35. Fear and Hunger: Termina
Fear and Hunger 1 was a tragic discovery for me. I found it from the SuperEyepatchWolf, then learned too much of it to justify playing myself. As a huge Berserk and dark fantasy fan, it likely would have been high up on this list if I got to experience it fresh.

Thankfully...there was a sequel. While Termina doesn't have the same pure dark fantasy tone of F&H1 that is 101% my vibe, it goes for something that is still 95% my vibe combining dark fantasy, urban warfare, eldritch horror, and Silent Hill. The game is openly inspired by multiple sources (hence the title), and could have felt derivative, but manages to meld them in a way that feels cohesive and extremely unique.

Fear and Hunter 2 is an exercise in tension. Your number of resources and saves are limited, and certain injures can lead to permanent limb loss for your characters. While the game could probably be beaten in 2-3 hours if played perfectly, a normal playthrough will have 15+ hours marked on your save file and 15+ more hours unaccounted for due to deaths and retries. It sounds brutal and it is but as your knowledge grows, the game continues to open up, giving you this addicting push/pull feeling of running into an obstacle, figuring it out, then running into another obstacle, etc.

The main issue I have Termina is actually that it gets a bit too easy in the last 40% or so. There's certain ways to break the combat that aren't hard to figure out. Also, while this wasn't an issue for me, it's worth noting to anyone interested in the game that it has some big content warnings attached to it. I mentioned it reminds me of Berserk for a reason.

34. Subnautica
One of the scariest horror games ever created, even thought it (initially) wasn't really advertised that way. At its heart, Subnautica is an underwater base builder game. There's some survival elements, but resources like food and air aren't really the problem. Once you get a handle on the mechanics, you'll rarely ever die to silly things like that or die at all, honestly.

It turns out that the open sea is terrifying regardless of how well-prepared you are. Going down...and down...and down...unable to see exactly where you're heading...visibility low...home base getting farther and farther away...something stirring in the distance...

Yeah, it's bone-chilling in a way that can't be accurately described. Subnautica tabs into primal caveman fear better than any game ever released. And just for funsies, it also has giant monsters that can eat you, appearing infrequently enough that you're always lulled into a false sense of security before they show up.

33. Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal / Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver
Back when the series was still fresh and fun. Not going to devote my limited time to describing what freaking Pokemon is to people here, but special note should be given to how you go back to the RBY's areas after beating GSC, then go on to fight Red as the final final boss. It was an absolutely mind-blowing experience, especially as a kid. Made the adventure feel infinitely more vast and important, and helped showed me what expansive worlds were capable of. Not bad for a Game Boy game.

32. Persona 4
Persona 4 used to be a lot higher on this list. I think as I've gotten older, some of the anime tropes and questionable writing choices have soured my memories of that first golden playthrough. Spoiler alert Persona 5 is not appearing on this list, in large part due to having the same issues, but magnified, and without good characters or plot to use as a smokescreen.

But that's a different conversation. Despite Persona 4's flaws, it still has a special quality to it that sets it above other JRPGs. Cast chemistry is at an all-time high here; I like the worst members of the investigation Team more than the best members of SEES or the Phantom Thieves. Persona 4 also absolutely nails its small-town atmosphere, benefiting greatly from focusing on personal characterization rather than grandiose external events. Until right before the very end of the game, P4's entire plot focuses on one ongoing supernatural murder mystery, which is a breath of fresh air in a world of RPGs with constant escalation.

Aside from its mostly strong writing, Persona 4 also retains the same addictive gameplay loop as P3. Dungeon, Social Link, Dungeon, Social Link. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The music is phenomenal as well, which seems to be a prerequisite for Persona games.

31. Pyre
It's a shame that Pyre is by far Supergiant's worst-selling game, although I get why. It's definitely the most unique title they've release. The other three Supergiant games are all solo-character action games with a 2-D isometric style. Pyre...is essentially 3 v 3 fantasy basketball.

And it's great. I'll talk about the gameplay first because it's the biggest stopping point for most people. Pyre's 'battles' take a while to get used to, but once you do, they make for an exciting combination of twitch reflexes and short-term strategizing. You have to continuously pass the 'ball' between your three characters, setting them up in proper spots to gradually advance your position, then finally, score. Do this enough times, and you win! Your reward?

You get to decide which one of your friends escapes an underground hell.

Pyre's gameplay is fun, but it's the gameplay in tandem with the narrative that makes it something special. Whenever your motley crew manages to win a Big Game, you choose one of them to ascend to the world above, freeing them from the desolate environment they've been exiled to. That character...is gone. Permanently. They're happier, probably, but you will never see them again. They can't be chosen in battles anymore, and they won't show up in cutscenes or interactions. It lends a huge amount of weight to the decision, especially in a meta sense. Helping out your favorite characters means you, the player, don't get to interact with them anymore.

Assuming you win at all. Know what's worse than losing a character you like? Losing the Big Game, and watching as someone else on a different team gets to ascend. There's a limited number of those chances in Pyre, and you can fuck up literally all of them. And even if you have a flawless record, not everyone in your main cast can benefit. At least one or two people will inevitably be left behind.

This is something that would fall flat if Pyre didn't have strong writing, but it does. There's plenty of character moments to get you invested in not just your own cast of characters, but people on the other teams too. We've got faction politics, family drama, an above-ground revolution, a brewing maybe-sorta apocalypse something for everyone. Characters and the world respond to your decisions constantly as well, even down to small details. Hades rightfully gets praised for this, but Pyre did it first.

I'll stop there because this writeup is already getting too long. Anyone who's read this is probably going to research Pyre with inflated expectations. I fully understand I care about this game more than most. But sometimes when a game resonates with you, it really resonates.

KamikazePotato posted...

One of the scariest horror games ever created, even thought it (initially) wasn't really advertised that way.

I think I love scuba sims (and the ocean in general) too much to be able to see Subnautica as a horror game. Any time I ran into a leviathan I was just like "oh what a gentle giant :3 it's more scared of me than i am of it"

KamikazePotato posted...

31. Pyre

I really need to play this, considering I love Supergiant's other 3 games.

Kenri posted...

it's more scared of me than i am of it"

I somehow doubt this is the case!

I actually didn't know about the Reaper Leviathans when I first played. Didn't see it coming, either. Was swimming along around the shipwreck and suddenly I'm at 2% health and oh my god what is that.

My most surprising Subnautica moment was when, right after getting the big quest from the Leviathan Queen, I turned around and started swimming away and was immediately attacked by a leviathan. I was like "wtf did she aggro on me for... some reason?" and then realized that, no, right after giving you the quest she opens a portal, and a wild leviathan on the other side of that portal swam through instantly and immediately started blasting.

Honestly that whole area was super bugged in my game for some reason so it might have had to do with that, idk if it can happen normally.

Heck yeah Persona 4

Investigation Team is perhaps the best playable cast in any RPG in terms of overall quality from top to bottom (and cast chemistry, of course). I love Inaba and how literally every single person in town has a character development journey you can follow over the course of the game.

That's hilarious. Buggy indie games can give some fantastic moments.

This isn't a comparable glitch, but when I first played Alien Isolation, the cutscene where the Alien first appears completely bugged out. I heard random sounds, but nothing else happened except for the music getting dramatic. Wasn't sure what was going on, so I did what I needed to in that area then started sprinting away because the music had me on edge. You're supposed to be scared and sneaking due to Alien having officially appeared, but since I never actually saw its character model...yeah. As I was running up the stairs, I heard big plodding footsteps, then turned around to see the Alien standing on the bannister one floor down, just staring at me without moving. I think it was as surprised to see me as I was to see it.

Then it murdered me, which was rude.

Leonhart4 posted...

Heck yeah Persona 4

Investigation Team is perhaps the best playable cast in any RPG in terms of overall quality from top to bottom (and cast chemistry, of course). I love Inaba and how literally every single person in town has a character development journey you can follow over the course of the game.

The Social Links in P4 are great at tackling realistic problems. I really liked the ones with Saki's brother and the overworked mom. Persona 5 has strong Confidants (best part of the game), but P4's felt like they did a better job at furthering that game's atmosphere.

KamikazePotato posted...

I like the worst members of the investigation Team more than the best members of SEES

teddie > sees is a nuclear level take imhotbqhhhhh

For real though P4 cast is great. I prefer SEES but it's definitely a different dynamic and that dynamic basically develops over time whereas the Investigation Team has great friend chemistry from the jump.

KamikazePotato posted...

This isn't a comparable glitch, but when I first played Alien Isolation,

Caught standing on the banister is what sells it for me.

Cat behavior.