Current Events > Israel/Palestina War 12: Attacking the worlds biggest refugee camp

(+) Yeah! (+)

MrMojoRising posted...

not every country's military is engaged in an active subjugation of its neighbors which has recently resulted in likely genocide. And not every country forces its people to become part of this military under threat of imprisonment

so you really can't say the same thing.

Also, not every country has a military.

Yo_D_oY posted...

'Firefighter saves a family that nearly got burnt alive!'
Internet guy: 'it is literally just their job'

It literally is though.

I bet you say U.S. soldiers are heroes just for killing people in the Middle East, huh?

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

If thats true (its not), but if it is, serving your country in then military regardless of what country it is is no longer a heroic choice to make. And apparently, dying in service to your country is apparently pointless as well. You cant demonize every individual because of the actions of the whole collective.

If that was the way it worked, wed have executed every single member of the Nazi party after Nuremberg, instead of putting them on trial individually and looking at specifically what they did while they served.

In my humble opinion, serving in your countrys military is one of the most heroic things you can do, regardless of country. But it stops being so when you, following orders or of your own accord, commit a war crime. Not every member of the IDF has committed a war crime, even though the organization certainly has. The people that have not though, are still fighting to protect their families and loved ones. That makes them heroes.

And yes, the same could be said of anyone who serves regardless of country.

While you got a point, the problem is that every IDF member have lived their whole life hearing that Palestinas are not worth the air they breath, and none have any problems with doing warcrimes.
And it is funny that you mention the Nazis...
Israel spent lots of resources tracking down and punishing Nazis that got away.
Everybody they could find.
What, you were a 15 years old girl working as a private secretary for somebody at a concentration camp?
Sorry, you are a Nazi that allowed them to kill millions of people that didnt fit their master race formula, now pay with your life!

Y'all are being weird. Stop attacking individual IDF soldiers that haven't done anything

Foppe posted...

While you got a point, the problem is that every IDF member have lived their whole life hearing that Palestinas are not worth the air they breath, and none have any problems with doing warcrimes.

See, thats not true either. Ive got family and friends in the IDF, and for the most part what Ive noticed is that their motivation for doing so is about being able to go home to their families.

I think in general it would better for conversations concerning this conflict to avoid those all or every generalizations that tend to group everyone into the same category. If its wrong for the Israelis to consider Gaza as only a hub for terrorists, (and it is) then it also has to be wrong to consider all members of the IDF as members of a ultranationalist militia doing the work of fascists.

So does this end when Israel occupies Gaza with Hamas reduced to a shell of its former self?

On that note, how much of Gaza does Israel now control?

Charged151 posted...

So does this end when Israel occupies Gaza with Hamas reduced to a shell of its former self?

On that note, how much of Gaza does Israel now control?

Depends what you mean by "control". Arguably they never stopped controlling it, they just didn't have complete unabated access to it.

emblem-man posted...

Y'all are being weird. Stop attacking individual IDF soldiers that haven't done anything

We can consider this when IDF as an organisation stops slaughtering individual Palestinian civilians that haven't done anything. Until then, this is a case where guilt by association is completely valid. Don't want to be deemed a terrorist? Don't join or fund the IDF.

Trumble posted...

We can consider this when IDF as an organisation stops slaughtering individual Palestinian civilians that haven't done anything. Until then, this is a case where guilt by association is completely valid. Don't want to be deemed a terrorist? Don't join or fund the IDF.

But people who support or fund Hamas, they get a free pass?

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

But people who support or fund Hamas, they get a free pass?

Quote exactly where I said they do.

Yo-whatever is SUSPENDED. Eagles must be next at this point.

A reminder that it's always worth marking the shit that downplays civilian casualties or denies Israel's wrongdoing; even if some mods are no actioning it, eventually it'll reach one who treats it appropriately. (Now, why GameFAQs isn't looking into who is no actioning these and demodding them, is another question...)

Trumble posted...

Yo-whatever is SUSPENDED. Eagles must be next at this point.

A reminder that it's always worth marking the shit that downplays civilian casualties or denies Israel's wrongdoing; even if some mods are no actioning it, eventually it'll reach one who treats it appropriately. (Now, why GameFAQs isn't looking into who is no actioning these and demodding them, is another question...)

More right wing 261 posters getting modded

Trumble posted...

(Now, why GameFAQs isn't looking into who is no actioning these and demodding them, is another question...)

Unchecked biased mods? In a website which allowed Admiral to run amok for years? More likely than you think

Trumble posted...

Yo-whatever is SUSPENDED. Eagles must be next at this point.

A reminder that it's always worth marking the shit that downplays civilian casualties or denies Israel's wrongdoing; even if some mods are no actioning it, eventually it'll reach one who treats it appropriately. (Now, why GameFAQs isn't looking into who is no actioning these and demodding them, is another question...)

Translation: Eventually the mods will see I am right and ban anyone that argues with me.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Translation: Eventually the mods will see I am right and ban anyone that argues with me.

Quiet down the vengeance boner and maybe people will take you seriously.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Translation: Eventually the mods will see I am right and ban anyone that argues with me.

Not defending war criminals is objectively right.

Trumble posted...

Not defending war criminals is objectively right.

So is calling for the return of kidnapped people without negotiations.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

So is calling for the return of kidnapped people.

Nobody gives a shit if you call for it.

Committing war crimes to accomplish that is the problem, and Israel still isn't allowed to commit those.

DrizztLink posted...

Nobody gives a shit if you call for it.

Committing war crimes to accomplish that is the problem, and Israel still isn't allowed to commit those.

And Hamas isnt allowed to murder and kidnap those people. You expect the Israelis just to sit on the online message boards, bitching and complaining about it?

And for the record, show me where I said committing war crimes is acceptable? I just think its unreasonable to demand that the Israelis negotiate with terrorists when no-one else has to

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

So is calling for the return of kidnapped people without negotiations.

Sure, that part is fine. Hamas should return the hostages. Israel should stop committing genocide. One side not meeting their obligation here does not justify the other side refusing to also meet theirs. And neither side will ever be "the good guy" after what they've done so far.

But you know damn well that that isn't the part of your posts that everyone objects to.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

And Hamas isnt allowed to murder and kidnap those people. You expect the Israelis just to sit on the online message boards, bitching and complaining about it?

I expect them to not commit war crimes.

Full stop.

You don't get to "but THEM" when you're the one dressing up like medics, nobody forced Israel to do that.

Well, apparently 100 Israeli families went to the Hague apparently asking the ICJ to indict Hamas on War Crimes.

And since October 7th was clearly a war crime, it shouldnt take all that long to pass a guilty verdict. Then maybe the ICJ can go get the hostages.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/14/middleeast/israeli-hostage-families-war-crimes-complaint-intl/index.html

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Well, apparently 100 Israeli families went to the Hague apparently asking the ICJ to indict Hamas on War Crimes.

Good, indict them.

Also indict Israel.

It's not very complicated.

DrizztLink posted...

Good, indict them.

Also indict Israel.

It's not very complicated.

The ICJ ruled that Israel has to take steps to limit civilian deaths. If they go into Rafah, and its proven that they arent doing everything they can to limit civilian deaths, then they should be indicted.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

The ICJ ruled that Israel has to take steps to limit civilian deaths. If they go into Rafah, and its proven that they arent doing everything they can to limit civilian deaths, then they should be indicted.

Cool, so don't shit your pants when it happens.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

You cant demonize every individual because of the actions of the whole collective.

You've obviously not been to one of the "all cops" kinds of threads when they pop up.

DnDer posted...

You've obviously not been to one of the "all cops" kinds of threads when they pop up.

There's no equivalent in a general population of the thin blue line for cops.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Not every member of the IDF has committed a war crime, even though the organization certainly has.

Yeah, you've obviously never been to any of the cop threads at all.

An IDF member who doesn't take a conscientious objector exemption to service after watching the last 4 months has implicitly endorsed IDF behavior.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

The people that have not though, are still fighting to protect their families and loved ones. That makes them heroes.

Are they? I thought they were conscripted and were there in the IDF because they had to be, unless they qualify for an exemption from service.

Is someone press-ganged into work there and fighting to protect their families, or because they've been press-ganged into it?

No matter which angle you take to look at the IDF, none of them show them being heroes. On an individual basis, the best you can say is that they're just ordinary soldiers, at worst (which is becoming the new normal) you see them being war criminals.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

But people who support or fund Hamas, they get a free pass?

Absolutely no one sane is giving Netanyahu or Likud a free pass on this.

DnDer posted...

You've obviously not been to one of the "all cops" kinds of threads when they pop up.

I have, but I disagree with them too. Not all cops are Derek Chauvin, who was guilty of murder. In the 261 days, I did get into a heated argument with someone (I dont remember who) about the Rashawn Brooks issue because of the fact he went from calm and peaceful during the arrest to grabbing the cops tazer and the cop shot him in the back. Whoever I was arguing with said that it was the same as the Derek Chauvin thing, and while I admonished the cop because shooting someone in the back is still a really bad look and should be grounds for further inquiry, its not the same thing as sitting on someones neck for eight minutes.

That was an interesting summer over there to say the least. But Im not about to demonize every single law enforcement professional simply because there are a lot issues with police in the US. For all the bad we see in the news, there are the stories we dont hear because the cops are simply doing their jobs correctly, and going home to be with their families.

Those people should be celebrated.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

And for the record, show me where I said committing war crimes is acceptable?

Well...

DrizztLink posted...

Committing war crimes to accomplish that is the problem, and Israel still isn't allowed to commit those.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

And Hamas isnt allowed to murder and kidnap those people. You expect the Israelis just to sit on the online message boards, b****ing and complaining about it?

Literally saying, "What do you expect? Them not to commit war crimes and genocide to get those hostages back?" to all of our face.

DnDer posted...

Well...

Literally saying, "What do you expect? Them not to commit war crimes and genocide to get those hostages back?" to all of our face.

Thats NOT what Im saying. And you guys not understanding that is precisely why I have to constantly defend myself.

What I am saying that in a kidnapping situation, any world government worth anything would do what it could to rescue its civilians. And the logistics of what Gaza has been turned into, with its network of tunnels and whatnot basically means that Israel is limited in its options in terms of rescue. Even the most moral army in the world would not be able to launch a rescue operation without civilian casualties in any scenario in Gaza.

And because of that, you have two options.

1. Dont go in at all, siege Gaza, and hope that maybe after a while youll get them back. All the while, hoping the terrorists wont try it again.
2. Or go in, and risk civilian casualties to get the kidnapped back.

And because of the Gilat Shalit situation, where that guy had to sit in a Gaza jail cell for five years and then exchanged for one thousand prisoners including Sinwar himself, who organized October 7th, I dont see how Option 1 is an option at all. Thats my stance in a nutshell.

That in no way excuses the excess of civilian casualties that comes from Israels implementation of Option 2, or the settler attacks in the west bank. But in a perfect world, I dont see how anyone would think Option 1 is the way to go.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

If they go into Rafah, and its proven that they arent doing everything they can to limit civilian deaths, then they should be indicted.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/heres-why-superbowlmassacre-trending-super-183107435.html

You support the indictment over this atrocity, yes?

DnDer posted...

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/heres-why-superbowlmassacre-trending-super-183107435.html

You support the indictment over this atrocity, yes?

Of course he won't. He specifically said proven as a way to handwave any thing Israel does.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Or go in, and risk civilian casualties to get the kidnapped back.

They haven't "gone in." They have carpet bombed. They have acquired dumb, high-yield bombs from America that do the greatest amount of destruction. They have tanks randomly open fire on buildings and cars. When they do "go in" they shoot indiscriminately, to the point of killing hostages they were sent to rescue, because the goal isn't to rescue hostages.

This should be obvious even to you by now.

Policy was set early on when they said that the goal was destruction, and not accuracy.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Thats NOT what Im saying. And you guys not understanding that is precisely why I have to constantly defend myself.

Except when you go on to literally repeat yourself in making apologetics for the genocide.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

That in no way excuses the excess of civilian casualties that comes from Israels implementation of Option 2, or the settler attacks in the west bank. But in a perfect world, I dont see how anyone would think Option 1 is the way to go.

"It doesn't excuse the genocide, but I just don't see any other way than genocide. It's such a head-scratcher."

MNThunder posted...

Of course he won't. He specifically said proven as a way to handwave any thing Israel does.

There is a corpus of evidence that includes policy statements and the munitions they're securing and using. And the corpses of Palestine (forgive the word play) that prove it.

Anyone who's being intellectually honest could go all-in on saying Israel needs to be indicted for this.

DnDer posted...

They haven't "gone in." They have carpet bombed. They have acquired dumb, high-yield bombs from America that do the greatest amount of destruction. They have tanks randomly open fire on buildings and cars. When they do "go in" they shoot indiscriminately, to the point of killing hostages they were sent to rescue, because the goal isn't to rescue hostages.

This should be obvious even to you by now.

Policy was set early on when they said that the goal was destruction, and not accuracy.

Its like you arent even listening to what MY position is. Im talking about the choices you have available to you after October 7th as a country. The fact that Israel has gone way overboard with what Option 2 actually means is not lost on me. And every time I see Biden or Blinken try to tell the Israelis to try a different approach while understanding they have to do something, and they ignore the advice, the more I actually hope todays the day they call for new elections and get Bibis group out of there. Ive already said I get some serious Capital from Hunger Games vibes everytime that spokesperson shows up on youtube.

And if a war crimes trial wants to investigate this war to determine whether or not war crimes have taken place, I would welcome it. But you need to start differentiating my position with what the Israeli government is doing, because they arent the same thing, and every day they go further and further apart. Its obvious they could give a shit about the PR war here, and if I were in charge, Id make that more of a priority.

I am in lockstep with all of you on key idea. You arent going to destroy Hamas with bombs alone. Where we disagree is whether bombs are necessary at all, and I believe that even the most moral PR campaign by Israel would not result in a lasting peace as long as Hamas exists. Thats it. Some of you think Hamas would eventually disappear if Israel just went full on altruism, and I disagree.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

determine whether or not war crimes have taken place, I would welcome it. But you need to start differentiating my position with what the Israeli government is doing, because they arent the same thing, and every day they go further and further apart.

You realize we can read your posts.

DrizztLink posted...

You realize we can read your posts.

To be honest, I dont think you do.

Christ, if only.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

and they ignore the advice, the more I actually hope todays the day they call for new elections and get Bibis group out of there

You hope they call for new elections? You don't hope to put war criminals on trial? You don't hope to hold people to account for ethnic cleansing and genocide?

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

And if a war crimes trial wants to investigate this war to determine whether or not war crimes have taken place, I would welcome it.

Bruh. We have documented evidence of:

• opening fire on civilians from helicopters, a war crime
• opening fire on and killing hostages who were surrendering, a war crime
• shelling an ambulance trying to rescue a 6yo girl whose family was killed during the commission of a war crime, a war crime
• dressing up as medical personnel to attack people in a hospital, two war crimes at once
• collective punishment in the form of shutting off electricity and water, a war crime
• refusing to let aid through and creating a famine, should be a war crime if it's not already
• desecrating gravesites and corpses, war crime (that even America managed to punish one of its soldiers for)
• killing journalists and journalists' families, a war crime

The issue is not whether the war crimes have taken place, but if the global community has the balls to convict of the war crimes we have plain evidence of on top of investigating for all the other ones we don't know about.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

I am in lockstep with all of you on key idea. You arent going to destroy Hamas with bombs alone. Where we disagree is whether bombs are necessary at all, and I believe that even the most moral PR campaign by Israel would not result in a lasting peace as long as Hamas exists. Thats it. Some of you think Hamas would eventually disappear if Israel just went full on altruism, and I disagree.

Why are bombs necessary? Why is leveling entire neighborhoods necessary? Why is exterminating so many civilians with those bombs necessary?

Every bomb dropped, and every civilian caught in the blast of one, is a new recruit for hamas. And Netanyahu knows that. He wants to make more hamas members because hamas existing keeps him out of jail for the non-war crimes he committed.

Why are they necessary when they do the exact opposite of achieving your alleged goal?

To the second highlighted point, how do you propose to get rid of hamas? What solution do you have in mind that isn't, "Let Israel keep doing its thing," man?

Lastly, why are you lying? No one is telling Israel to be altruistic. At all.

Telling Israel to cede back the illegal settlements and grant Palestine sovereignty and borders is not altruism. It's what Israel owes the Palestinian people. A second state. They can even guard their border after as un-altruistically as the US does (minus the saw blades and razor wire human rights abuses, of course). Is it not asking for altruism to have Israel do the bare minimum.

Again, youre not paying attention.

To deal with terrorists, its going to require boots on the ground. And no military commander that gives a shit about his troops is going to send his troops in without air support. Not when in an urban setting, you are dealing with snipers, booby traps and the like. Thats just how it goes. Im not advocating for leveling neighborhoods, but I am saying there is no completely non violent solution for Hamas. Which is my point regarding altruism. Im saying that even if Israel completely withdraws from the West Bank and Gaza, offers the right of return, divides East and West Jerusalem and recognizes Palestinian sovereignty of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza, and even goes so far as to completely rebuild Gaza, while putting its on leaders on trial for war crimes and paying war reparations, and a million other things to make amends and mend fences with the Palestinian people, Im saying if Israel goes as far as it possibly can go for peace to the point where the entire world has not but to do but be in awe of the Jewishs states desire for peace, even in that scenario, at least in the short term, Hamas still exists and Hamas is still going to do its thing.

And heres the thing, I think Israel should go ahead and do it all anyway. Strategically, morally, and for its own image, it is making a very stupid error in not giving a damn about how the world perceives it. If nothing else than to show just how dangerous the enemy is, and to prove once and for all that they in fact arent the genocidal maniacs you are making them out to be, I would absolutely offer the two state solution to the Palestinian authority with condition that they become an ally against Hamas, or at least agree not to help them or whatever. I would do it tomorrow. I would have done it as soon as it became clear a quick knockout in Gaza was not possible. Its a win win situation. If they accept, then finally Hamas is isolated, and if they reject it, like they have in the past, well.at least they can say they tried.

DnDer posted...

Bruh. We have documented evidence of:
* opening fire on civilians from helicopters, a war crime
* opening fire on and killing hostages who were surrendering, a war crime
* shelling an ambulance trying to rescue a 6yo girl whose family was killed during the commission of a war crime, a war crime
* dressing up as medical personnel to attack people in a hospital, two war crimes at once
* collective punishment in the form of shutting off electricity and water, a war crime
* refusing to let aid through and creating a famine, should be a war crime if it's not already
* desecrating gravesites and corpses, war crime (that even America managed to punish one of its soldiers for)
* killing journalists and journalists' families, a war crime

The issue is not whether the war crimes have taken place, but if the global community has the balls to convict of the war crimes we have plain evidence of on top of investigating for all the other ones we don't know about.

Holy war crimes, Batman

Alright, if you want to bricker about warcrimes and who did what, make a new topic.
Meanwhile the updated stats;
The latest casualty figures as of February 12 at 3:30pm in Gaza (1:30 GMT):
Gaza

• Killed: at least 28,340 people, including more than:
• 12,150 children
• 8,300 women
• Injured: more than 67,984, including at least:
• 8,663 children
• 6,327 women
• Missing: more than 7,000

Occupied West Bank

• Killed: at least 390 people, including more than:
• 102 children
• Injured: more than 4,450

My penpal in Gaza is still alive thankfully

Theres another american stuck in Gaza on interpals I have no idea how a US doctor ended up there and was still alive

Excusing the civilian casualties of a genocide is on the same level of excusing civilian casualties on terrorism.

Music_Rock_Cat posted...

My penpal in Gaza is still alive thankfully

Glad to hear it! A little off topic but do you mean "penpal" in the old school sense, like sending physical letters to each other? If so, people in Gaza are still getting mail delivered right now?

I met her on interpals then facebook she was messaging me on. They can't watch youtube or anything though but online messaging was working at times. She told me that Ham was easy to get as a food source in Gaza right now.

Music_Rock_Cat posted...

I met her on interpals then facebook she was messaging me on. They can't watch youtube or anything though but online messaging was working at times. She told me that Ham was easy to get as a food source in Gaza right now.

Interesting. Ham makes sense given the Muslim majority, although it's weird to me they'd even have ham there. I hope she's doing ok. The fact she has internet access at all in Gaza is a good sign I guess. It sounds like you are the only one here with an actual connection to someone there ATM if I'm not mistaken. I think it you would be very insightful if you updated us on what she's going through on the regs. You can even @ me if you want