Current Events > The Imperium of Man is a terrible and terrifying concept

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By no means should modern humanity be morally compared with the Imperium...and yet...

So why does it feel like IoM is less morally bankrupt than some factions of modern humanity? The Israel government, the GOP, etc.

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luigi33 posted...

So why does it feel like IoM is less morally bankrupt than some factions of modern humanity? The Israel government, the GOP, etc.

They dont hide their hatred and contempt like they do in real life

Because they fight against worse and unambiguously cartoonishly evil threats

Is this Warhammer 40K shit?

When one heretic can open a portal to Chaos that can destroy a whole planet, there's reason to be as zealous as possible. This cannot happen in real life, so such zealotry is nonsense in real life.

hereforemnant posted...

Is this Warhammer 40K shit?

Yes. I think its the name of the government which rules over all humans

Zikten posted...

Yes. I think its the name of the government which rules over all humans

Okay I don't know shit about this topic then, have my bump OP

The IoM has a real God backing them up, that kind of presence keeps them (more) honest.

Death to the Xenos

hereforemnant posted...

Okay I don't know shit about this topic then, have my bump OP

Thanks.

Guide posted...

When one heretic can open a portal to Chaos that can destroy a whole planet, there's reason to be as zealous as possible. This cannot happen in real life, so such zealotry is nonsense in real life.

That makes sense. Despite Imperium doing stuff objectively more horrible than any of these groups I've mentioned, perhaps it's thr intentions that make them feel more pure.

from what I understand, humans in Warhammer 40k don't have a lot of choice. If they want to survive they have to let the Imperium do its thing. Anyone who resists is threatening the safety of the species

Guide posted...

When one heretic can open a portal to Chaos that can destroy a whole planet, there's reason to be as zealous as possible. This cannot happen in real life, so such zealotry is nonsense in real life.

but like
the imperium will destroy a whole planet over suspicion that this hypothetical one heretic possibly exists

the imperium is a fascist theocracy on steroids that has absolutely no qualms with murdering any of its citizens at any time for any reason, and willfully does so, by probably the millions, on a daily basis

this is no defense of any modern day political/governmental body, but to say they're worse than anything 40k has to offer is laughably hyperbolic

ArsGoetia posted...

but like
the imperium will destroy a whole planet over suspicion that this hypothetical one heretic possibly exists

the imperium is a fascist theocracy on steroids that has absolutely no qualms with murdering any of its citizens at any time for any reason, and willfully does so, by probably the millions, on a daily basis

this is no defense of any modern day political/governmental body, but to say they're worse than anything 40k has to offer is laughably hyperbolic

I mean...I feel Imperium is one of the few fictional instances where you can actually justify that kind of government though. It speaks to how shifty fascism is though. For it to be justified: Hell has to actually exist, demons have to actually exist, and they have to be actively gunning for your entire species from all sides along with other objectively terrifying xenon threats like Orcs and Tyranids. That's the only way fascism is justified.

008Zulu posted...

The IoM has a real God backing them up, that kind of presence keeps them (more) honest.

Don't they literally sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people every day just to keep him alive? Sounds pretty MAGA-esque

luigi33 posted...

I mean...I feel Imperium is one of the few fictional instances where you can actually justify that kind of government though. It speaks to how shifty fascism is though. For it to be justified: Hell has to actually exist, demons have to actually exist, and they have to be actively gunning for your entire species from all sides along with other objectively terrifying xenon threats like Orcs and Tyranids. That's the only way fascism is justified.

did you like put a trump speech through a 40k word filter or something

ArsGoetia posted...

did you like put a trump speech through a 40k word filter or something

Tf u talking about.

ArsGoetia posted...

did you like put a trump speech through a 40k word filter or something

I mean that's cogent. I don't agree, but it's not word salad or anything.

luigi33 posted...

Tf u talking about.

b/c the imperium doesn't really spend much of its time worrying about orks or tyranids and any implication that they do is surely a smokescreen? lol.
they're more concerned w/ rooting out any dissent within their own body, and it's why there's like 60 novels on the fuckin horus heresy and like 4 novels on orks

a large portion of the imperium of man has no clue that xenos or chaos exists btw, but are still subject to living in absolute fuckin hellholes to support the imperial war machine

and i mean if we're being real, half of chaos (khorne, nurgle) is humanity's fault anyways (idk about tzeentch, and slaanesh was eldar)

Tau are the only good guys in 40k. I say that as a loyalist myself.

ArsGoetia posted...

b/c the imperium doesn't really spend much of its time worrying about orks or tyranids and any implication that they do is surely a smokescreen? lol.
they're more concerned w/ rooting out any dissent within their own body, and it's why there's like 60 novels on the fuckin horus heresy and like 4 novels on orks

a large portion of the imperium of man has no clue that xenos or chaos exists btw, but are still subject to living in absolute fuckin hellholes to support the imperial war machine

and i mean if we're being real, half of chaos (khorne, nurgle) is humanity's fault anyways (idk about tzeentch, and slaanesh was eldar)

I don't know a lot about WH 40K lore, what did Humans and Eldar do to bring about Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh?

ArsGoetia posted...

but like
the imperium will destroy a whole planet over suspicion that this hypothetical one heretic possibly exists

Justifiably, because entire star systems have fallen to literally one naughty rando.

Ain't nothing about trans people getting surgery is harming any conservatives, but they act like it'll kill the planet.

Ruvan22 posted...

I don't know a lot about WH 40K lore, what did Humans and Eldar do to bring about Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh?

iirc khorne was implied to be ww2, nurgle the black plague, and afaik the hedonistic downfall of the eldar led to both dark eldar and the birth of slaanesh

I dont know much of 40k lore but I just love the Immaterium, reminds me of Todash Space. I just adore that world between worlds shit.

How can citizens of the Imperium not know that aliens exist? I never knew that part of the lore. I assumed everyone was aware there are aliens out there, and demons

It's stated humans living in the Tau Empire have a better quality of life on average despite being hostile aliens to the Tau. The Imperium will genocide any alien, whereas the Tau will welcome them into their empire. And the Tau aren't good people. They're comparable to any extreme authoritarian government with heavy propaganda, it's just the Imperium is so bad, those humans living under the Tau end up having a better quality of life. Then you have truly independent humans like the Leagues of Votann (squats) that are if not good guys, are morally neutral and just want to live long and prosper. The only humans worse off than Imperium humans are the ones living on Chaos planets (usually as slaves or worse). The Horus Heresy era even gives us examples of humans living under relatively liberal systems of government only to get wiped out by the Crusade of the totalitarian Imperium (and we even have humans aware of, and less susceptible to, the forces of Chaos).

The Imperium is bad, the lore makes it obvious they are bad, and it's crazy that people keep trying to justify them.

Guide posted...

Ain't nothing about trans people getting surgery is harming any conservatives, but they act like it'll kill the planet.

the imperium straight up exterminates any demi/abhuman population of its own people that it cant find use for lol

ArsGoetia posted...

b/c the imperium doesn't really spend much of its time worrying about orks or tyranids and any implication that they do is surely a smokescreen? lol.

The main boss of the Imperium legit left his comfy chair on Terra to personally find a way to deal with the biggest Tyranid invasion in recorded Imperium history. Like, thats happening right now.
ArsGoetia posted...

a large portion of the imperium of man has no clue that xenos or chaos exists btw, but are still subject to living in absolute f***in hellholes to support the imperial war machine

For Xenos I don't see any reason Imperium does not prepare its populace for them, but concealing Chaos from the vast majority of the population is actually not a bad idea considering warp fuckery. Like, entire worlds have outright collapsed because a lone cult got knowledge of the dark gods that lead to complete pandemonium and collapse.

Guide posted...

Ain't nothing about trans people getting surgery is harming any conservatives, but they act like it'll kill the planet.

This.

ArsGoetia posted...

iirc khorne was implied to be ww2, nurgle the black plague, and afaik the hedonistic downfall of the eldar led to both dark eldar and the birth of slaanesh

Khorne is the oldest and came into being around the Middle Ages. Slaanesh was right before the Horus Heresy. Im not sure about the other two.

Guide posted...

When one heretic can open a portal to Chaos that can destroy a whole planet, there's reason to be as zealous as possible. This cannot happen in real life, so such zealotry is nonsense in real life.

Heck, if I recall it doesnt even need to be a
heretic. A mere untrained psyker is vulnerable to Chaos.

008Zulu posted...

The IoM has a real God backing them up, that kind of presence keeps them (more) honest.

The Emperor doesnt see himself as a god and would actually hate the idea of being revered as one. Instead those in charge invoke his name to justify what they do.

Just like religious extremists in real life. God told me to tell you

FunWithAFryPan posted...

Tau are the only good guys in 40k. I say that as a loyalist myself.

Theyre the closest thing to good guys but as I recall they are fond of eugenics and sterilization.

ArsGoetia posted...

iirc khorne was implied to be ww2, nurgle the black plague, and afaik the hedonistic downfall of the eldar led to both dark eldar and the birth of slaanesh

The Chaos gods and arguably the Warp itself are a byproduct of psychic energy from the living species (especially humans and eldar) imprinting itself on reality. Basically an unintentional form of enough people believe in this god - or rather, embody what it represents - that it becomes real.

luigi33 posted...

The main boss of the Imperium legit left his comfy chair on Terra to personally find a way to deal with the biggest Tyranid invasion in recorded Imperium history. Like, thats happening right now.

pls tell me more about the lore written to sell boxes for the tyranid range refresh that amounted to absolutely fucking nothing lol

ArsGoetia posted...

pls tell me more about the lore written to sell boxes for the tyranid range refresh that amounted to absolutely fucking nothing lol

Okay? Fine?

I'm simply pointing out that Tyranids are legit threat.

All will serve Grandfather Nurgle in the end

Dark_Arbron posted...

The Chaos gods and arguably the Warp itself are a byproduct of psychic energy from the living species (especially humans and eldar) imprinting itself on reality. Basically an unintentional form of enough people believe in this god - or rather, embody what it represents - that it becomes real.

yes, and the supposed birth of khorne was the aftermath bloody wars of the second millennium on earth. and nurgle was implied to be the mass fear of death (specifically via illness) manifested during the black plague. this may have been retconned since the last time i read 40k chaos lore.

and btw orks are the only good guys in 40k

luigi33 posted...

concealing Chaos from the vast majority of the population is actually not a bad idea considering warp fuckery. Like, entire worlds have outright collapsed because a lone cult got knowledge of the dark gods that lead to complete pandemonium and collapse.

Its what SCP Foundation calls an infohazard. Information that presents a threat simply by being known, and the Chaos gods are aware of this and actively pursue it.

luigi33 posted...

Okay? Fine?

I'm simply pointing out that Tyranids are legit threat.

acting like they won't be shuttered for another half decade
yes we know they're a big threat
the imperium doesn't really place a comparatively high price on them to chaos and its internal threats, and they never will

Dark_Arbron posted...

Its what SCP Foundation calls an infohazard. Information that presents a threat simply by being known, and the Chaos gods are aware of this and actively pursue it.

But why is it bad if humans know that orks exist?

and like i'm really not trying to sell tyranids short, i think they and orks are legitimately the most unstoppable forces in the galaxy, if the lore were allowed to progress
but it doesn't because GW doesn't want to alienate anyone playing a faction that might be worse off from a lore standpoint
like legit, the only notable thing i've seen come out of 40k lore in the past decade is that there are chaos demigods like vashtorr
everything else is just completely pointless skirmishes no more effectual than a saturday morning cartoon episode

and to explain my point about

pls tell me more about the lore written to sell boxes for the tyranid range refresh that amounted to absolutely fucking nothing lol

the return of ragnar blackmane saw him pitted against ghazghkull thraka
ragnar heroically cut off ghaz's head
orks just sewed it back on. btw he's stronger now

Zikten posted...

But why is it bad if humans know that orks exist?

Dunno. Im no expert on the franchise, hence my liberal use of the word recall. Maybe in that case its just a good old fashioned case of control - if they dont know about it they wont start asking questions.

ArsGoetia posted...

acting like they won't be shuttered for another half decade
yes we know they're a big threat
the imperium doesn't really place a comparatively high price on them to chaos and its internal threats, and they never will

To be fair, the Imperium is the way the Imperium is right now BECAUSE of Chaos. Their god emperor is stuck on a chair because of Chaos. Tyranids are relatively new. So ofcourse they will prioritize Chaos.

ArsGoetia posted...

yes, and the supposed birth of khorne was the aftermath bloody wars of the second millennium on earth. and nurgle was implied to be the mass fear of death (specifically via illness) manifested during the black plague. this may have been retconned since the last time i read 40k chaos lore.

and btw orks are the only good guys in 40k

The Orks are not good in the slightest. They're just the only ones in the 40k universe that are actually winning and satisfied with the status quo.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

Khorne is the oldest and came into being around the Middle Ages. Slaanesh was right before the Horus Heresy. Im not sure about the other two.

I'm pretty sure Slaanesh came about during the age of strife which was before the great crusade. I remember hearing that Slaanesh was about 25k years old in the current 40k setting. The HH happened around 30k (or ~10k before current setting).

As for the other gods, I thought they were all birthed after the war in heaven which was like 60 odd million years ago when the Necrons killed off the Old Ones.

GeneralKenobi85 posted...

The Orks are not good in the slightest. They're just the only ones in the 40k universe that are actually winning and satisfied with the status quo.

I mean WH40K coined the term grimdark for a reason. Its the most cynical setting Im aware of*, and possibly ever written, besides Hell. Its like I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream dialled up to the galactic level.

*Fictional setting anyway. In real life we have comparable settings such as Alabama.

GeneralKenobi85 posted...

The Orks are not good in the slightest. They're just the only ones in the 40k universe that are actually winning and satisfied with the status quo.

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

ArsGoetia posted...

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

Put that in quote marks please lol.

Anyway to get back on topic, does no one else feel this way or am I alone in this thought? In reference to my original post.

Zikten posted...

from what I understand, humans in Warhammer 40k don't have a lot of choice. If they want to survive they have to let the Imperium do its thing. Anyone who resists is threatening the safety of the species

Na, there is plenty of room for survival without it. Of course literally countless would die without it but humanity would still be around.

Skyrazer posted...

I'm pretty sure Slaanesh came about during the age of strife which was before the great crusade. I remember hearing that Slaanesh was about 25k years old in the current 40k setting. The HH happened around 30k (or ~10k before current setting).

As for the other gods, I thought they were all birthed after the war in heaven which was like 60 odd million years ago when the Necrons killed off the Old Ones.

There are always contradictory sources for this stuff, but I definitely didnt think the first three were that old.

Ulfar posted...

Na, there is plenty of room for survival without it. Of course literally countless would die without it but humanity would still be around.

Yeah they will be around until Tyranids eat up every single world and then be off to the next Galaxy.

I am not defending the Imperium per say. I am just not sure how else humans could be doing business in the 40k world and survive. The Imperium is both a cause and the result of a debased and warped universe.

The Emperor's vision failed. Even the Emperor's vision seemed very xenophobic anyway and far from perfect. The rotten Imperium that took its place, installing him as a God, is worse. Yet, all other fates are worse for mankind than life in the Imperium. So it seems, at least.

There is no good ending for mankind. There is no neutral ending for mankind. There are just endings that are shades of bad for mankind in 40k -- somehow status quo under the Imperium is one of the less bad shades.

Maybe the Emperor will rot and resurrect. Maybe as a result mankind will evolve past mental susceptibility to Chaos as a result. Mankind gets access to the Webway. I would say that's a long shot, and it's still not clear to me that will somehow change mankind from being genocidal to Xenos. The Big E always seemed ok with purging the Xenos.

I am not condoning the Imperium. I just don't see how mankind could survive in the setting much any other way.