Current Events > To circumcise or not?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Sonixs posted...

People are incorrectly and over dramatically using the term mutilation and some of us just want to fuck with them lol

tbh the most dramatic thing ive seen in the past hundred posts is how strongly you care about how another dudes dick looks lol

Zonbei posted...

If only Id repeatedly addressed that as I dont have a foreskin, I can only go off what Ive been told by people that do, and cant claim to know for sure. Sadly, youve got nothing else to latch onto, so you keep ignoring that.

Oh no, Ive pointed out a lot of problems with your arguments, but just like the CDC, youre whistling to the side and pretending they dont exist.

Dont call other people rabid when you continuously ignore reality.

IdiotMachine posted...

Whats interesting is I started this topic with 95% certainty that I wanted to circumcise our boy (my wife deferred the decision to me since I have a penis and she doesnt), but since then, I talked with my friends who have boys, and learned not a single one of them circumcised their boy. This has now changed my certainty down to like under 50%. Bah.

In all seriousness, if you're an American your future kid will thank you years from now. It's easier to do if for them now then to leave it for them to do it when they're older.

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

Sonixs posted...

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

That's demonstrably false.

Sonixs posted...

Well it's not mutilation. So it's not a lie.

The part where you say it looks better cut

Regardless of whether you call it mutilation or not, shaming people for not having cosmetic genital surgery is indefensible and it's much worse to apply that to infants and perform the cosmetic surgery because you speculate that it will be more attractive sexually. Would anyone actually think it wasn't disgusting if there was an equivalent surgery to cosmetically change vaginas and people encouraged parents to do it to infant girls because it would make men think their vaginas looked better?

ArsGoetia posted...

tbh the most dramatic thing ive seen in the past hundred posts is how strongly you care about how another dudes dick looks lol

Nah that's projection.

Sonixs posted...

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

Oh yeah, Im sure theres a lot of people that wish they were circumcised.

KI_Simpson posted...

Regardless of whether you call it mutilation or not, shaming people for not having cosmetic genital surgery is indefensible and it's much worse to apply that to infants and perform the cosmetic surgery because you speculate that it will be more attractive sexually. Would anyone actually think it wasn't disgusting if there was an equivalent surgery to cosmetically change vaginas and people encouraged parents to do it to infant girls because it would make men think their vaginas looked better?

Yeah, the shit Sonixs is saying is ridiculous.

Tanthalas posted...

Again you pretend that I said something else.

Circumcision culture was indeed started in the USA by crackpots that claimed it could cure everything, just like how people thought that bloodletting was also a cure all.

Its a relic of the past thats kept in the USA due to sheer stupidity.

I assume you didnt respond and verify its Kellogg because you wanted plausible deniability and werent certain you were right, but given thats the only possible answer

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/d/d5b56787.jpg

Wow, not only did the guy you called a crackpot not do what you said he did, he AGREES with you and is against what doctors said. With a nice dose of anti-semitism tossed in. Fun fact, the guy agreeing with you was a racial purist. AND a crackpot!

It is actually impressive how wrong youve managed to be in every conceivable way, here.

Tanthalas posted...

Oh yeah, Im sure theres a lot of people that wish they were circumcised.

I'm sure there was way more people that wish they were than wish they weren't. Since it's mostly Americans who have it done, based on numbers alone it's probably more likely there are more people who wish they had it done.

KI_Simpson posted...

Would anyone actually think it wasn't disgusting if there was an equivalent surgery to cosmetically change vaginas and people encouraged parents to do it to infant girls because it would make men think their vaginas looked better?

Well there's not so that's an irrelevant argument.

Sonixs posted...

I'm sure there was way more people that wish they were than wish they weren't. Since it's mostly Americans who have it done, based on numbers alone it's probably more likely there are more people who wish they had it done.

Well that would be easy to prove, show some evidence of all the non-American men who choose to be circumcised as adults. If it's so common to want that, it must happen pretty often, right?

KI_Simpson posted...

Well that would be easy to prove, show some evidence of all the non-American men who choose to be circumcised as adults. If it's so common to want that, it must happen pretty often, right?

As one data point, Im glad I was circumcised. I would still not choose to do it as an adult. Its not worth it. It IS worth having it done as a baby when I didnt remember it because I was basically not yet sapient.

Sonixs posted...

Well there's not so that's an irrelevant argument.

So you would, in fact, be open to telling parents to get their infant's vagina modified because men like it better that way if you had the opportunity? If you wouldn't be, you wouldn't have to cowardly refuse to address the hypothetical.

Zonbei posted...

Essentially the dude just cited a comment section.

I am not a dude, thank you very much.

The source of the statement is of no consequence in this case.

Zonbei posted...

As one data point, Im glad I was circumcised. I would still not choose to do it as an adult. Its not worth it. It IS worth having it done as a baby when I didnt remember it because I was basically not yet sapient.

If it's not worth doing as an adult, it is not justified to do it to a child and take away their choice. I care less about my penis than most people who have one (I'm nonbinary and am basically neutral on which genitals I want to have, although that means I'll probably keep the ones I have unless we make miraculous advances in technology that make going back and forth quick and simple) but I would still feel violated if cosmetic surgery was performed on me and I was shamed for expressing discontent over it.

CSCA33 posted...

I am not a dude, thank you very much.

The source of the statement is of no consequence in this case.

Dude is gender neutral, but sure, if you dont want to be called that I wont.

It literally is of consequence. What was the purpose of posting it if not to use it as some sort of proof? You had no one to back you up so you had to go to a different comment section?

KI_Simpson posted...

If it's not worth doing as an adult, it is not justified to do it to a child and take away their choice. I care less about my penis than most people who have one (I'm nonbinary and am basically neutral on which genitals I want to have, although that means I'll probably keep the ones I have unless we make miraculous advances in technology that make going back and forth quick and simple) but I would still feel violated if cosmetic surgery was performed on me and I was shamed for expressing discontent over it.

I mean. I am literally telling you that its not worth doing as an adult so Im GLAD it was done as a child. If it was worth doing as an adult it would be less meaningful that it got done as a newborn (although it would still be easier so Id still be fine with it.) Im not shaming you though. Just giving you my own stance and experience.

Personally, I actually value the experiences and comfort of actual thinking people over newborn babies, because newborn babies arent going to remember that shit anyways.

(which is not advocating for just doing anything to babies; some things actually do harm development, and harming babies just for the sake of it is insane behavior. I dont believe thats the case with circumcision though.)

Zonbei posted...

I mean. I am literally telling you that its not worth doing as an adult so Im GLAD it was done as a child. If it was worth doing as an adult it would be less meaningful that it got done as a newborn (although it would still be easier so Id still be fine with it.) Im not shaming you though. Just giving you my own stance and experience.

Personally, I actually value the experiences and comfort of actual thinking people over newborn babies, because newborn babies arent going to remember that shit anyways.

No one, anywhere (criminally abusive cases aside), defends causing pain to babies because "they won't remember it anyway" in normal circumstances, so leave that out of it. The only actual reason anyone has babies circumcised is because (whether for cultural or cosmetic reasons) they like how it looks better. It creates a completely needless insecurity (whether you are or aren't circumcised) that you are admitting has no reason to exist because no one would actually want to be circumcised as a healthy adult otherwise. If a statistically significant portion of people with penises were born without foreskin I would absolutely say it didn't matter and both should just be accepted, but the context of forcing it on infants is not something I'm okay with.

KI_Simpson posted...

No one, anywhere (criminally abusive cases aside), defends causing pain to babies because "they won't remember it anyway" in normal circumstances, so leave that out of it. The only actual reason anyone has babies circumcised is because (whether for cultural or cosmetic reasons) they like how it looks better. It creates a completely needless insecurity (whether you are or aren't circumcised) that you are admitting has no reason to exist because no one would actually want to be circumcised as a healthy adult otherwise. If a statistically significant portion of people with penises were born without foreskin I would absolutely say it didn't matter and both should just be accepted, but the context of forcing it on infants is not something I'm okay with.

I wouldnt want to be circumcised as an adult because I dont like pain and Im squicked out by surgery in general. Otherwise Id be all for it because of the benefits, especially if I knew what I know now, I.e my current lived experience. Please stop imposing your view of my thoughts onto me like theyre my thoughts.

Zonbei posted...

I wouldnt want to be circumcised as an adult because I dont like pain and Im squicked out by surgery in general. Otherwise Id be all for it because of the benefits, especially if I knew what I know now, I.e my current lived experience. Please stop imposing your view of my thoughts onto me like theyre my thoughts.

Your views directly support imposing a permanent physical change on someone before they can consent, you can't just call them personal opinion and ask for everyone to respect them. This isn't about attacking you.

Zonbei posted...

I wouldnt want to be circumcised as an adult because I dont like pain and Im squicked out by surgery in general. Otherwise Id be all for it because of the benefits, especially if I knew what I know now, I.e my current lived experience. Please stop imposing your view of my thoughts onto me like theyre my thoughts.

You assume a baby will grow up and have your same opinion. That's a stupid assumption

KI_Simpson posted...

Your views directly support imposing a permanent physical change on someone before they can consent, you can't just call them personal opinion and ask for everyone to respect them. This isn't about attacking you.

Yes, Ive said repeatedly that imposing a permanent physical change on someone before they can consent is called normal parenting in regards to medicine. I am saying that as a person who had this done to them, I could not care less that it was without my consent. Because I couldnt consent. I was a child. Sometimes parents do things for their childs benefit. My parents did MUCH worse things to me without my consent, things that were not beneficial and actually caused lasting psychological harm.

Zikten posted...

You assume a baby will grow up and have your same opinion. That's a stupid assumption

Pretty sure I said no such thing.

Zonbei posted...

Yes, Ive said repeatedly that imposing a permanent physical change on someone before they can consent is called normal parenting in regards to medicine. I am saying that as a person who had this done to them, I could not care less that it was without my consent. Because I couldnt consent. I was a child. Sometimes parents do things for their childs benefit. My parents did MUCH worse things to me without my consent, things that were not beneficial and actually caused lasting psychological harm.

Imposing a permanent cosmetic change on someone because you like how it looks better is absolutely not standard practice in medicine, at least not anywhere at least pretending to be ethical. The "benefits" are microscopic and come from biased sources, it is very clearly done out of tradition or cosmetic preference.

Zonbei posted...

Pretty sure I said no such thing.

You implied it

KI_Simpson posted...

Imposing a permanent cosmetic change on someone because you like how it looks better is absolutely not standard practice in medicine, at least not anywhere at least pretending to be ethical. The "benefits" are microscopic and come from biased sources, it is very clearly done out of tradition or cosmetic preference.

I have never once said you should do it because you like how it looks better. Thats the other guy, who I disagree with.

Your claim that the benefits are microscopic and come from biased sources is what the ENTIRE REST OF THIS TOPIC has been about. The first claim is a determination youve made. The benefits are minor. The downsides are even more minor. Microscopic is a word youre using to downplay the benefits.

the biased sources thing has been pretty soundly disproved, which is why the people claiming it shut up about it and moved on to the next stupid claim. Or in the case of the guy talking about Kellog, stopped responding entirely because they got roundly embarrassed by how wrong they were after spending the entire topic claiming something the exact opposite of reality.

You NEED to circumcize your kid. Can't risk getting phimosis and having your kid think it's normal until adulthood then gotta get adult circumcision which will leave really noticeable scars unless he can some how not get a boner which he probably can't prevent with stuff like morning wood, seeing an attractive person, etc. Plus with phimosis you can't clean well in there and it will be painful to try to retract the skin

Zikten posted...

You implied it

Sure didnt.

BigB0ss13 posted...

You NEED to circumcize your kid. Can't risk getting phimosis and having your kid think it's normal until adulthood then gotta get adult circumcision which will leave really noticeable scars unless he can some how not get a boner which he probably can't prevent with stuff like morning wood, seeing an attractive person, etc

Frankly phimosis sucks so much, and the downsides of circumcision are so minor, that Id probably want it done to me just for that reason. I dont know that Id say NEED, but it certainly would suck ass. I am certain every single person who has ever had phimosis wishes they were circumcised as a kid.

Zonbei posted...

Sure didnt.

Why would you circumcise a baby if you believe it will grow up and hate you for doing it? You obviously assume the baby will one day thank you

Zonbei posted...

Frankly phimosis sucks so much, and the downsides of circumcision are so minor, that Id probably want it done to me just for that reason. I dont know that Id say NEED, but it certainly would suck ass. I am certain every single person who has ever had phimosis wishes they were circumcised as a kid.

I edited my post to include the pain and having that will be hard to clean. Just imagine ejaculating then having it stuck there for years

Zonbei posted...

I have never once said you should do it because you like how it looks better. Thats the other guy, who I disagree with.

Your claim that the benefits are microscopic and come from biased sources is what the ENTIRE REST OF THIS TOPIC has been about. The first claim is a determination youve made. The benefits are minor. The downsides are even more minor. Microscopic is a word youre using to downplay the benefits.

the biased sources thing has been pretty soundly disproved, which is why the people claiming it shut up about it and moved on to the next stupid claim. Or in the case of the guy talking about Kellog, stopped responding entirely because they got roundly embarrassed by how wrong they were after spending the entire topic claiming something the exact opposite of reality.

The downsides are not minor, we have either people's autonomy being taken away and then being shamed if they object to it or people who aren't circumcised being told they're repulsive because their penis looking like it naturally does is wrong and something their partners have a right to demand be altered. Whether you personally do those things or not, they happen entirely because of nonconsensual circumcisions. I didn't read all of the 400 posts before I entered the conversation, but I saw nothing proving their were non-microscopic benefits from unbiased sources, feel free to repost the best ones if you think there are.

Zikten posted...

Why would you circumcise a baby if you believe it will grow up and hate you for doing it? You obviously assume the baby will one day thank you

Do you seriously think everything a parent ever does is done with them thinking boy the reason Im doing this is because they wont hate me or will thank me eventually.?

You do it because its beneficial. Or you dont because you dont think its worth the downsides. Whether your kid is going to be thankful or not is besides the point. (Although I do think its unlikely theyre going to HATE you. I likely wouldnt do it if I thought that, but luckily outcomes exist beyond the extremes youre pretending are the only possibility.)

KI_Simpson posted...

The downsides are not minor, we have either people's autonomy being taken away and then being shamed if they object to it or people who aren't circumcised being told they're repulsive because their penis looking like it naturally does is wrong and something their partners have a right to demand be altered. Whether you personally do those things or not, they happen entirely because of nonconsensual circumcisions. I didn't read all of the 400 posts before I entered the conversation, but I saw nothing proving their were non-microscopic benefits from unbiased sources, feel free to repost the best ones if you think there are.

I dont know how to make it clear to you that I dont believe autonomy being taken away is a downside. Babies entire life is having their autonomy taken away. In fact, babies dont HAVE any autonomy to take away. As humans, we do not get to choose every single thing they ever happens to us, including literally every single medical thing before the age of 18. Trust me, if I could have chosen to not have the dentist pull my tooth out without anesthetic as a kid, I would have.

Welcome to childcare, welcome to pediatric medicine. I dont care. That is literally a parents job. Someone can be upset their parent made that choice as an adult; welcome to having parents. You can also get phimosis and hate your parents for not getting you circumcised, but I dont see you making a case for preventing that outcome thats probably equally as rare. Most people dont feel that strongly about it.

Peopel being shamed for not being circumcised is a different issue that needs to be solved on its own, and never circumcise anyone is maybe the most ridiculous solution. Literally nobody is saying partners have a right to demand their dicks be altered to look better.

I am not going to post the sources I already posted again because you cant be bothered.

Zonbei posted...

I dont know how to make it clear to you that I dont believe autonomy being taken away is a downside. Babies entire life is having their autonomy taken away. Welcome to childcare, welcome to pediatric medicine. I dont care. That is literally a parents job. Someone can be upset their parent made that choice as an adult; welcome to having parents. You can also get phimosis and hate your parents for not getting you circumcised, but I dont see you making a case for preventing that outcome thats probably equally as rare. Most people dont feel that strongly about it.

Peopel being shamed for not being circumcised is a different issue that needs to be solved on its own, and never circumcise anyone is maybe the most ridiculous solution. Literally nobody is saying partners have a right to demand their dicks be altered to look better.

I am not going to post the sources I already posted again because you cant be bothered.

I'm more inclined to think you're just lying about having sources that support what you said (it isn't like I've never looked into this before, you're the one insisting everyone in the topic ran away in fear from your sources which are apparently way better than any argument I've seen about this in the past) if you respond like that, especially when you're being so dishonest in your first paragraph. You are fully aware the issue is that this is a permanent, unnecessary change and are trying to compare it to health preserving vaccines and things that won't have any effect on someone as an adult.

Why do Europeans not do it, if there are so many great benefits? You have to admit that the real top reason it happens is tradition. Whether religious or otherwise. Everything else is an exaggerated excuse. Justifications pro circumcision people come up with to convince themselves they are right

Unless you think Europeans are stupid or somehow not aware that circumcision exists. This is 2024 and they have the internet over there. They know. They just don't think it's a good idea

BigB0ss13 posted...

You NEED to circumcize your kid. Can't risk getting phimosis and having your kid think it's normal until adulthood then gotta get adult circumcision which will leave really noticeable scars unless he can some how not get a boner which he probably can't prevent with stuff like morning wood, seeing an attractive person, etc. Plus with phimosis you can't clean well in there and it will be painful to try to retract the skin

Just teach your kid how to wash their dick, why is this considered so outrageous? Teaching your kid basic god damn hygiene isn't difficult.

KI_Simpson posted...

I'm more inclined to think you're just lying about having sources that support what you said (it isn't like I've never looked into this before, you're the one insisting everyone in the topic ran away in fear from your sources which are apparently way better than any argument I've seen about this in the past) if you respond like that, especially when you're being so dishonest in your first paragraph. You are fully aware the issue is that this is a permanent, unnecessary change and are trying to compare it to health preserving vaccines and things that won't have any effect on someone as an adult.

You can think Im lying all you want, it just makes you look silly because theyre literally in the fucking topic.

Enclave posted...

Just teach your kid how to wash their dick, why is this considered so outrageous? Teaching your kid basic god damn hygiene isn't difficult.

You didnt actually read what they said, did you? Theyre talking about phimosis. There is no basic hygiene to fix the issue theyre discussing.

Zikten posted...

Why do Europeans not do it, if there are so many great benefits? You have to admit that the real top reason it happens is tradition. Whether religious or otherwise. Everything else is an exaggerated excuse. Justifications pro circumcision people come up with to convince themselves they are right

Unless you think Europeans are stupid or somehow not aware that circumcision exists. This is 2024 and they have the internet over there. They know. They just don't think it's a good idea

As has been said NUMEROUS times, there are minor benefits, and its essentially a 50/50 whether to do it or not. Its a personal choice. Why do Europeans not do it? Culture, which is apparently a valid reason to believe Americans do, but Europeans must be doing what they do because theyre more evolved of something.

I dont care about tradition. I hate traditions frankly. Literally all that is informing my thoughts on this is the clear medical consensus about the fairly obvious benefits that are easy to comprehend, and my personal experience. Repeatedly misrepresenting the stances of others isnt going to make you more right.

Then I guess you think European doctors are less educated

Zonbei posted...

You didnt actually ready what they said, did you? Theyre talking about phimosis. There is no basic hygiene to fix the issue theyre discussing.

Again your ignorance.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/a_to_z/phimosis-and-paraphimosis-a-to-z

Phimosis may be prevented by good hygiene.

Teach your kid how to have proper hygiene to prevent phimosis.

As always you'll note there's not some huge phimosis problem in Europe so why are the pro-elective cosmetic surgery on infants bringing it up like it's some huge problem? Because they don't have any actual real problems with not getting circumcised to bring up. It's almost like it's a completely needless surgery to inflict on somebody who cannot consent to it.

Enclave posted...

Again your ignorance.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/a_to_z/phimosis-and-paraphimosis-a-to-z

Teach your kid how to have proper hygiene to prevent phimosis.

As always you'll note there's not some huge phimosis problem in Europe so why are the pro-elective cosmetic surgery on infants bringing it up like it's some huge problem? Because they don't have any actual real problems with not getting circumcised to bring up. It's almost like it's a completely needless surgery to inflict on somebody who cannot consent to it.

Read your own link. Some
causes of phimosis may be prevented via good hygiene. Some. May. Other causes include scarring, infection unrelated to bad hygiene, literal diabetes as is said in the link, and just straight up bad luck because it was pulled back too forcefully. Thank god you didnt just find the first thing that sort of agreed with you and tossed it out like a shield, or you might look silly.

Do you guys ever get sick of being objectively wrong? Youd think if you did, youd modify your behavior, maybe pay more attention, do more research.

a topic full of dick talk would get to 500 on CE lol

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Abortion is an issue largely about the bodily autonomy of adult humans. Newborn babies do not have bodily autonomy. They just dont. There is no arguing that, its just a fact about them. Nobody is speaking out against bodily autonomy; society already decided a long time ago that parents can make medical choices for their children.

Sonixs posted...

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

I have. It came up in a conversation with my mom and my aunt, and I was pretty firm on the matter that being circumcised was not something I wanted, and that I would much have preferred to make the choice myself as an adult..

Zonbei posted...

Read your own link. Some
causes of phimosis may be prevented via good hygiene. Some. May. Other causes include scarring, infection unrelated to bad hygiene, literal diabetes as is said in the link, and just straight up bad luck because it was pulled back too forcefully. Thank god you didnt just find the first thing that sort of agreed with you and tossed it out like a shield, or you might look silly.

Do you guys ever get sick of being objectively wrong? Youd think if you did, youd modify your behavior, maybe pay more attention, do more research.

And you are once again ignoring that there's no great phimosis epidemic in Europe.

You keep saying I'm wrong but you ignore the fact that a rather massive number of men in the world are not circumcised and yet all these medical problems you complain about are not actually some major problem and then accuse me of being wrong. I'm not wrong, I'm being a realist. These "problems" solved by circumcision are not actually problems and we have billions of people in the world as proof of that.