Current Events > Bernie to Voters Abstaining Over Israel: 'Trump is even worse'

(+) Yeah! (+)

The ones who are anti-genocide but are actively taking a position that will unequivocally lead to the full expansion and escalation of the genocide they're against.

Its a really weird and funny way to be anti-genocide but actively doing the most effective pro-genocide thing they can do.

Criticizing the people in power who are doing nothing to stop a genocide isn't the same as supporting trump. You can point to some people taking advantage of the situation to promote trump, but that does not invalidate the entire anti-genocide movement.

When in a first past the post system, refusing to vote or convincing other people to not vote for Trump's opponent is in essence the same as supporting Trump.

I wish we had an in-place alternative system.

But the reality is if you sit by and don't do the bare minimum (read: voting) to oppose the worse enemy to your cause, you become at least mildly complicit in their actions. At minimum, you're stating you didn't care enough to speak your mind when it is deemed to actively matter.

They're not meaning to promote Trump but the effects of their actions are in essence the same

Driving down to the root of the issue, both parties are bought out by moneyed interests. Democrats will always interpret voting as they like. Even if they lose because of anti-genocide protests, they will instead pretend the issue is that they didn't appeal to "moderates" enough. Additionally, democrats and republicans play off of each other. Republicans point at democrats as if they were socialist so that they can move to the right and democrats point to republicans as being worse so that democrats can get away with keeping the status quo (or moving to the right slowly). This is why people say both sides are the same, even if they are not the *exact* same.

The problem is that things will only keep getting worse with this pattern as the moneyed interests squeeze people harder and harder. At the critical point when the people cannot stand it any longer, the moneyed interests will push for fascism and democrats will go along with it. We can see this happen in history where liberal "moderates" always yield to fascism rather than actually work for the people, because their moneyed backers would rather fascism than giving up any bit of wealth.

I don't understand how people can pretend democrats are saving anything when they refuse to budge on key issues, when their leadership repeatedly state that we *need* a strong republican party, and when the party cozies up to vile war criminals like george bush and dick cheney.

If democrats are not only okay with permitting genocide but actually actively supporting it, what makes you think they won't turn on you in other ways if the moneyed interests so desire? Genocide is the lowest of the low and supporting it shows that there is no low they aren't willing to sink down to.

Driving down to the root of the issue, both parties are bought out by moneyed interests. Democrats will always interpret voting as they like. Even if they lose because of anti-genocide protests, they will instead pretend the issue is that they didn't appeal to "moderates" enough. Additionally, democrats and republicans play off of each other. Republicans point at democrats as if they were socialist so that they can move to the right and democrats point to republicans as being worse so that democrats can get away with keeping the status quo (or moving to the right slowly). This is why people say both sides are the same, even if they are not the *exact* same.

The problem is that things will only keep getting worse with this pattern as the moneyed interests squeeze people harder and harder. At the critical point when the people cannot stand it any longer, the moneyed interests will push for fascism and democrats will go along with it. We can see this happen in history where liberal "moderates" always yield to fascism rather than actually work for the people, because their moneyed backers would rather fascism than giving up any bit of wealth.

I don't understand how people can pretend democrats are saving anything when they refuse to budge on key issues, when their leadership repeatedly state that we *need* a strong republican party, and when the party cozies up to vile war criminals like george bush and dick cheney.

If democrats are not only okay with permitting genocide but actually actively supporting it, what makes you think they won't turn on you in other ways if the moneyed interests so desire? Genocide is the lowest of the low and supporting it shows that there is no low they aren't willing to sink down to.

I don't understand how people can pretend democrats are saving anything when they refuse to budge on key issues, when their leadership repeatedly state that we *need* a strong republican party, and when the party cozies up to vile war criminals like george bush and dick cheney.

to the people who are refusing to vote kamala

are you prepared to fight a trump presidency and no i do not mean protest

imean actually take up arms against the government

are you going to put your life on the line to protect the millions in america who will die when he starts his mass deportation

If democrats are not only okay with permitting genocide but actually actively supporting it, what makes you think they won't turn on you in other ways if the moneyed interests so desire? Genocide is the lowest of the low and supporting it shows that there is no low they aren't willing to sink down to

at the end of the day, Voting for Harris has the chance of helping

give ending the genocide a chance?

Stop complaining that I'm stabbing you, because shooting you is worse! *stab stab*

The ones who are anti-genocide but are actively taking a position that will unequivocally lead to the full expansion and escalation of the genocide they're against.

Its a really weird and funny way to be anti-genocide but actively doing the most effective pro-genocide thing they can do.

If you are really concerned about this, you should be starting locally. Get local Mayors/Governors/Representatives into power that share your ideals. Vote on ballot measures to help make it possible for 3rd parties to win like how a few states have ranked choice ballot measures this election.

Sitting around every 4 years to only get upset the current democrat party doesn't support your interests fully to only protest vote and effectively throw away any voice you may have had is not helping.

We can't afford a Trump presidency which means Harris must win. There's no other option.

We are already working locally, but this takes a long time and Palestine will be wiped out before then. If it's not, this work doesn't necessarily mean action will be taken. We've all seen the response to student protests. When it comes down to it, moneyed interests will always win out.

This just isn't true.

Ok, let's assume what you said is true. Then if you still don't vote for Harris that means you are fine with the persecution of LBQT+ people in the US, the deportation of anyone who isn't white, putting Christianity in public schools and so on.
Are you really ok with all that? Will you withhold your vote and help Trump, fascists, and the Nazis win?

With that kind of attitude it's not a surprise you're not accomplishing anything.

You yourself have argued that nothing can be accomplished in regards to genocide because both parties support it. Thanks for agreeing with me. Again, when it comes down to it, moneyed interests win out and the things they don't care which direction they end up (trans rights, reproductive rights, etc) are merely bargaining chips that are always on the table and move back and forth to pretend progress is being made. So you're not accomplishing anything either and arguably voting does nothing but slightly delay the inevitable fascism that capitalism always ends up in.

No, I'm not okay with that. This is still an irrelevant response to me pointing out a false statement.

You aren't pointing out a false statement because you don't know. You aren't clairvoyant. You can't predict the future. You...don't...know...

Are you talking about the people who are anti-genocide or the democrats who are pro-genocide but use other minorities to project moral superiority with "but think of these other groups we're using as pawns to continue supporting genocide!!!!"?

both parties

You aren't pointing out a false statement because you don't know. You aren't clairvoyant. You can't predict the future. You...don't...know...
All we can do is vote for Harris and let her administration know our feelings.

Everything is pointless, so let's just give up and let a Fascism regime take over and make everything worse!

[post quoting only the words "both parties" from my post and then inserting a pointless image]

No, I still do vote and take action where I can, but I'm not going to pretend it's actually doing anything and I'm certainly not going to scream at others for daring to protest against genocide.

The best way to protest genocide is help the guy who has straight up said he'll commit genocide get elected.

Nobody said this. Try arguing with what is being said rather than the strawmen you've constructed in your mind.

Are both parties not supporting israel in their campaign of genocide? Clarify for me how "both parties" is wrong here. It seems like you're just reacting out of instinct to the two key words without understanding what they mean, as if you were trained to shut down and scream at the mere sight of them.

If you don't want to look at the big picture and see there's far worse coming, then i wish you the best of luck under a Trump presidency.

Alternative metaphor:

The Titanic is going down and you're refusing to get in the lifeboat because the seats don't have cupholders.

(well you spoke your mind, just not in a manner most effective for your cause/beliefs)

we could possibly talk Harris into various solutions.

Again, not true.

Based on what, exactly?

the VP of an administration that has unquestioningly sponsored and protected Israel's genocide, who hasn't gone on to make any statements to the contrary, doesn't "have a chance of helping" stop that genocide.

Based on what, exactly?

These people love to ignore that Harris has stated she supports a 2 state solution

"The other guy will genocide even harder" still isn't a good strategy

At this point, it's not a strategy, it's the truth. People's minds are mostly made up.

Again, not true.

Sorry, but "she's VP and hasn't done it" is not a reason why she wouldn't be amenable as President when her stated views are more left than Biden

Her stated views in the current campaign don't go against any of the Biden admin's actions.

If you are really concerned about this, you should be starting locally.

You're the one going around acting like your vote doesn't matter and that it's more important to not vote Harris over Palestine while conveniently ignoring everything Trump has said about Palestine. You clearly don't care outside of whatever appearance you want to keep about it.

Both parties are similar in regards to Israel, the key difference being that Trump is drafting blueprints for the West Bank right now, and we could possibly talk Harris into various solutions.

But hey continue huffing that centrist copium. It's worked well for you so far I'm sure.

Sorry forgot something

[image to show that nails are on fleek while defending a pro-genocide party or something, I dunno, just guessing the meaning]

These people love to ignore that Harris has stated she supports a 2 state solution which involves Palestine not being killed. It's all just so they can ignore everything wrong with Trump so they can feel good about helping him win.

Hint : He's actually not. He just likes to pound his chest on gamefaqs.

I like how you're labeling me a centrist when you're defending democrats and their centrist "genocide but you can protest it a bit (but not too much like the student protests) as a compromise" stance.

It's almost like she's vice president and has to adhere to a certain messaging while running for president where she'd have more leeway.

"It can't get worse"