Board 8 > Board 8 Ranks Crime Films Part II: Disorganized Crime - The Rankings!

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11. Oldboy (2003)
Directed by Park Chan-wook
Score: 133

Karo: 3
Poke: 3
Suprak: 3
Johnbobb: 13
Seginus: 13
Lightning: 14
Seanchan: 15
jcgamer: 16
Mythiot: 25
Inviso: 28

Karo
A man is kidnapped and held for 15 years, then is suddenly released without fanfare. This also turns him into a master street fighter because he punched a wall a lot while in captivity.
Thrown into a world he has lost all connection to, he vows to hunt down those responsible for his imprisonment, and this involves a lot of kicking names and taking ass.
Finally he faces down the mastermind, revealing a level of epic trolling unheard of in the mortal realm. Like we're talking Scott Tenorman Must Die levels of overreactive psychopathy here. Let's just say it involves a lot of hypnotism, incest and self-mutilation.
This is certainly something unique that doesn't pull any punches, and admirably avoids going down the path of becoming just another generic revenge fantasy film. Some people may not like how the ending turned out, but, I found it perfect.

Johnbobb
Why I included it:
Winner of the Cannes Grand Prix and often considered not just one of the best Korean crime films, but one of the world's best. It's an underground crime thriller about Oedipus Rex of all things. Park Chan-wook has risen to be one of the most thrilling directors of the past two decades. After the acclaimed Vengeance trilogy, he only continued to climb via The Handmaiden and Decision to Leave. Oldboy is actually the second in the trilogy (they're connected via themes rather than a shared storyline) but is by far the most recognized of the three.

What I thought:
So despite Oldboy being by far the most beloved of the Vengeance trilogy, it's actually my least favorite of the three. Now, that's no knock against Oldboy clearly, I just really loved Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance and Lady Vengeance. I have yet to see anything from Chan-wook that is any less than excellent

Favorite 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
You lost me at I want to fuck my daughter

Seginus
Okay, this one is way more fucked up than I remembered. I saw it once twenty years ago (I still have the dvd!) and the basic revenge tale stuck in my mind but I forgot all the lurid details and graphic body horror. Its ridiculously melodramatic in a way that actually works for me, I think because it fully commits to taking its heightened reality seriously. It also delivers a lot of interesting imagery and settings, sending us on a journey through these strange, vaguely surreal spaces (I love the antagonists penthouse with the lit up moat). Its not just a revenge taleits a double revenge tale!

I guess the moral of the story is dont start rumors, eh? I mean this dude got a biblical amount of comeuppance: 15 years of psychological torture and imprisonment, made to forget his own daughter and then tricked into sleeping with her, then driven to cut his own tongue out to prevent her from finding out. All because of one guy with a grudge, truly vengeance is a limitless motivator.

Lightning
Even though Im worse than a beast, dont I still deserve to live?

Oldboy is a very unusual film as its combining stylish action with a comic book aesthetic (sure enough, its based on a manga) and incredibly bleak subject matter and violence. It creates an interesting pulpy feel that isnt seen too much elsewhere. And even if we just took Oldboy on its style it would be a really effective film with some great set pieces like the side-on hallway fight scene.

Of course, Oldboys story is a pretty remarkable unfolding mystery of vengeance. We see a pretty pathetic guy become a monster and we are left to wonder if he always was on. Then it all descends into a truly disturbing finale which has both an incredibly disturbing twist and some more shocking violence. At the end the choice to forget it all is made and the characters are left blissfully ignorant. However, we the audience cant forget and know exactly what is happening.

I will say, I thought that there were parts where maybe this film is pushing boundaries just to push boundaries. It is definitely going for shock value a lot and I dont tend to go massively for that kind of thing. However, this is still a pretty fantastic achievement.

4/5

Seanchan
This has got to be the most fucked up movie in this entire list, which is saying something because theres quite a bit of that was fucked up going on. Yes, the ants crawling out of his skin, when eats the live squid (and the fucking tentacles are still moving as he passes out), pulling out the teeth with the hammer (shades of A Clockwork Orange with the music), and cutting off his own fucking tongue. But its the premise and the twist that really put this one way over the top.
Ill say going in that I knew this movie was fucked up but other than that I knew nothing about it. I should have maybe taken the mention of The Count of Monte Cristo more to heart for just how down the rabbit hole the bad guy (sorry, dont remember his name) was willing to go for his revenge. We get the reveal that he slept with his sister and blames the protagonist for everyone knowing about it and indirectly causing the death of his sister. Then the true bomb drops. You peek the wings in the suitcase and it was at that point I think I said aloud Jesus fucking Christ, he made him sleep with his daughter!?!. Which is so messed up and at the same time a pretty brilliant piece of revenge.
BUT. THEN. IT. GETS. WORSE! He doesnt want his daughter to know, to the point of cutting off his own tongue. Okay, makes sense I guess that hes worried about her becoming suicidal over it, even though it seems to me like telling the truth of the situation might be a better approach because how were they supposed to know. (An aside here, the thought crossed my mind in the restaurant scene at the beginning that it was his daughter but just didnt stick in my head for whatever reason.) Then he goes to visit the hypnotist so that he can forget andcontinue the relationship with his daughter?!? No dude, its done, you just cant continue that shit! I know theres some ambiguity about the ending but no matter which way I think about it thats fucked up is the only ending thought.

jcgamer
Pros: Insane and fascinating story, hallway fight scene
Cons: Tongue scene, and the reverse-oedipus..YIPES

6/10

Inviso
Going into this watchthrough, all I knew about Oldboy was the famous hallway fight scene, so I thought this was some sort of drug dealer revenge movie a la The Raid. Needless to say, I was surprised when it started out as a weird story about a guy getting kidnapped and imprisoned for fifteen years. And in theory, this is an interesting premise for a thriller: why was this guy imprisoned? Why did he get released? Will he get revenge on whoever imprisoned him? We learn the answer to all of these questions and morebut its not a pleasant story. I get that this is on the crime list and its not going to be all sunshine and rainbows, but it just left me feeling icky for multiple different reasons by the time it was all over.

First and foremost, honestly? The incest angle? Grossbut not the worst aspect of the film for me. Whats fucked up about it is the use of incest as psychological torture, particularly since one of half of said incest doesnt even REMOTELY deserve to be tortured. Which kinda brings me to why I dont really like this film all that much in general: its the same reason why Hostel and Martyrs and Hellraiser did nothing for me. I dont WANT to see someone get tortured. Saw is a unique case because the mindset of John Kramer makes it feel unique and interesting (plus some of the saw traps are themselves less disgusting than other torture porn). But yeah, this whole movie is basically just swinging from one brand or torture to another to another, and its really unpleasant.

Physically, you have the gross-out scenes of Mr. Park getting fifteen teeth pulled, and then Dae-su cutting out his own tongue. Both are gross, and I dont want to see that. But the psychological torture just compounds things. You imprison a guy for fifteen years, effectively stealing fifteen years of his life away, and then release him because you want to torture him just a LITTLE bit more, and a LITTLE bit differently? How, you ask? Well first, you murder his wife and plant evidence to implicate him in the murder. Then you oversee raising his daughter so she grows up and comes of legal age. Then you hypnotize both her AND him to make them fall in love with one another, unaware that they are related, so they engage in incestuous sex with one another. What the FUCK, dude?

See, the villain knew Dae-su in school, and the villain was hooking up with his own sister. Dae-su saw this and told his friend, who spread a rumor around school and eventually the sister killed herself because she believed she was pregnant with her brothers incest child. Now, I can understand hating Dae-su for this, but Lee-woo (the villain), did not seem to give two shits about the friend. The friend got to live his life for fifteen years, basically being a total piece of shit and showing no remorse for spreading rumors around. Seriously, theres a scene where the friend is talking on the phone to Dae-su, and actively calls the sister a slut, and Lee-woo kills him. No psychological torturejust kills himto torture Dae-su for some reason. It just feels over-the-top in a manner that does not befit Dae-sus crime as a teenager. And that leaves a horrible taste in my mouth, watching the film and watching these character interactions.

YOUR TOP 10

Baby Driver
Dog Day Afternoon
Drive
Fargo
Nightcrawler
No Country for Old Men
Ocean's Eleven
Shoplifters
Taxi Driver
The Big Lebowski

Leaderboard
Inviso: 158
Mythiot: 142
Seginus: 139
Poke: 139
Karo: 139
Seanchan: 133
Lightning: 125
Suprak: 122
Johnbobb: 120
jcgamer: 89

Another big hit for Vis makes sure he retains his top position with ease. Beyond that, the only movement is a big jump from Mythiot back up to 2nd and a new 3-way tie for third.

Hint for #10: Of the top 10 movies, only 4 of them came out prior to the turn of the century. This is not one of those 4.

anyway, what I have left:

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???
6. ???
7. ???
8. A Clockwork Orange
9. You Were Never Really Here
10. Bullet Train
11. Good Time
12. ???
13. Oldboy
14. Lon: The Professional
15. Serpico
16. ???
17. Burn After Reading
18. Bonnie and Clyde
19. Raising Arizona
20. Bad Times at the El Royale
21. M
22. The French Connection
23. Blood Simple
24. The Town
25. Jackie Brown
26. Heat
27. The Boondock Saints
28. ???
29. The Man Who Wasn't There
30. Dial M for Murder

my entire top 7 being intact at this point is a miracle

Audible groan at some of the films above the actual good ones. Figures though.

1) ?????
2) ?????
3) ?????
4) ?????
5) ?????
6) Leon: The Professional
7) Jackie Brown
8) ?????
9) A Clockwork Orange
10) ?????
11) Blood Simple
12) M
13) Bullet Train
14) ?????
15) ?????
16) Oldboy
17) Bonnie and Clyde
18) Raising Arizona
19) Heat
20) Good Time
21) Dial M for Murder
22) ?????
23) The Man Who Wasn't There
24) The Town
25) Burn After Reading
26) Serpico
27) The French Connection
28) The Boondock Saints
29) Bad Times at the El Royale
30) You Were Never Really Here

--------------------------------------------------------------

Cool that people largely agree with my top 5. I'm thinking Ocean's 11 is next.

Tbh not really a fan of the tendency for newer movies to do better on these lists.

Great top ten, would have liked A Clockwork Orange to make it but I get why its still somewhat divisive. Although my number 20 is still in, that is a very good film that easily could have gone several spots higher depending on the day.

Thinking Baby Driver next.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Tbh not really a fan of the tendency for newer movies to do better on these lists.

I mean, only two came out in the past decade, newer movies are proportionately represented compared to the starting list.

The Heat thing where people accused the movie of being too long and having too many characters especially stings to me because the main reason the movie is so acclaimed is BECAUSE its more of a drama than a thriller. And btw I have seen the movie and like it a lot on basically those grounds.

My 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 14, 21, and 26 are left.

We're at the point where it's pretty difficult to predict what comes next. It's one of: Ocean's 11, Drive, Nightcrawler, No Country for Old Men, Baby Driver, or Shoplifters.

Of those, it feels like Shoplifters would be next?

1. Leon: The Professional
2. Bullet Train
3. Oldboy
4. ???
5. ???
6. ???
7. The Man Who Wasn't There
8. ???
9. ???
10. Bad Times at the El Royale
11. You Were Never Really Here
12. Jackie Brown
13. Blood Simple
14. ???
15. Good Time
16. ???
17. Dial M for Murder
18. ???
19. M
20. A Clockwork Orange
21. Burn After Reading
22. ???
23. Raising Arizona
24. The Town
25. The French Connection
26. Serpico
27. Heat
28. Bonnie and Clyde
29. ???
30. The Boondock Saints

it is so gross the that 29 is still in

I'm not super surprised that my 28 is still in

1. ??????????
2. A Clockwork Orange
3. Raising Arizona
4. ??????????
5. M
6. ??????????
7. ??????????
8. ??????????
9. Blood Simple
10. ??????????
11. ??????????
12. ??????????
13. Bonnie and Clyde
14. Good Time
15. Dial M for Murder
16. You Were Never Really Here
17. The French Connection
18. ??????????
19. Serpico
20) ??????????
21. Heat
22. Jackie Brown
23. The Man Who Wasnt There
24. The Town
25. Oldboy
26. Burn After Reading
27. Bad Times at the El Royale
28. Leon: The Professional
29. Bullet Train
30. The Boondock Saints

1. Bullet Train
2. Bad Times at the El Royale
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???
6. Burn After Reading
7. Dial M for Murder
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???
11. Blood Simple
12. ???
13. Heat
14. Lon: The Professional
15. Serpico
16. The Boondock Saints
17. ???
18. Jackie Brown
19. Bonnie & Clyde
20. M
21. Raising Arizona
22. The Town
23. The French Connection
24. ???
25. The Man Who Wasnt There
26. You Were Never Really Here
27. Good Time
28. Oldboy
29. ???
30. A Clockwork Orange

Here we go!

10. Ocean's Eleven (2001)
Directed by Steven Soderbergh
Score: 131

Poke: 2
Seanchan: 3
Inviso: 3
Karo: 4
Seginus: 8
Lightning: 20
Mythiot: 20
Suprak: 21
jcgamer: 22
Johnbobb: 28

Seanchan
This is just a fun movie. I found myself thinking about this as Heat but as a non-violent heist movie. Rather than peak Pacino/DeNiro youve got peak Clooney and Pitt. Youve got a great supporting/surrounding cast (Bernie Mac!). ..Alright so maybe as Im writing this I dont have much more than that. At any rate, this is one of those giant cast of A-lister films that manages to make it work.

Inviso
Yeah, this movie is RIGHT up my alley. For a disorganized crime, its one of the most organized plots Ive seen up to this point on the list, and that works well for me on a personal level. Just seeing this group come up with a plan to rob a casino, and we get to watch the plan play out step-by-step, filled with charming and suave individualsits SO entertaining. I dont necessarily need this to have deep theming or anything like that to find this an awesome, entertaining popcorn flic. And I love the fact that the movie manages to still throw in suspense to the plot without going so over-the-top that it completely renders the film unbelievable.

I think we watched the original Italian Job for Organized Crime, and I recall my critique of the film found it kind of boring in execution. They came up with a plan, and the plan went off without a hitch, aside from a car crash at the end. Theres no suspense about whether the criminals will succeed. In Oceans Eleven though, the movie sets up a plan and introduces hitches to that plan: they were going to knock out the power, but the demolition of a nearby casino did the a few days earlier, which means the technicians will prevent it from happening again. So, on the fly, the team steals an EMP to cause a different kind of blackout, but this leads to their acrobat hurting his hand, which means his bandage gets caught while blowing the door to the vault. And yet, it turns out there were back-up plans the whole time, and its just a matter of not giving the audience EVERY detail, so were still surprised when things go wrong that were SUPPOSED to go wrong.

And I also love the personal touch regarding Danny Ocean and Tess. Sure, robbing a casino to prove you can is finebut throwing in that little spite twist of Danny Oceans ex-wife dating the douchebag casino owner isnice. And I love the fact that while you have to micromanage every aspect of a robbery, theres the added wrinkle of trying to micromanage the interpersonal relationship of Terry Benedict and Tess so that Tess realizes Teddys a douchebag and isnt good for her. And wouldnt you know itTerrys personality is easy enough to predict that even this aspect of the plan goes perfectly, with him showing his true colors on-camera, and Danny gets the girl in the end. Its just the perfect capper to an already fascinating heist storyline.

Karo
Heister extraordinaire Danny Ocean puts together the ultimate crew of 11 criminals with the goal of pulling off the biggest job in Las Vegas history.
It is a little slow to start but once it gets going it is riveting throughout, as we go step by step in the meticulous planning of the crime. Although our point of view is the one of the criminals, the intricacies of the master plan is partially hidden from the viewer so we have a big 'how did he do it' reveal near the end.
It is certainly the definitive heist movie, and I don't think many people would challenge me on that point. It's so well known for a reason.

Seginus
Been a long time since Ive revisited this. I remembered it simply as a slick ensemble heist that happens to be a lot of fun, this time I found a meta angle to appreciate as well. Its a movie about filmmaking itself as a grand heist, one that requires a producer, director, actors, stunt guys, costume changes, elaborate sets, doctored footage, some pyrotechnics, and even a little foley work to pull off.

There is one thing I dont get though, what is Scott Caans actual role? Because his introduction clearly implies hes the driver, but in the end the getaway vehicle were expecting him in is revealed to be a decoy, and the entire getaway is misdirection. So what did they need Scott Caan for, other than banter? Did I miss something or is he just there to fool the audience? Because if so, I actually like that as a fourth-wall break.

If memory serves, twelve is even more fun.

Lightning
Been practicing that speech, havent you?

This is the kind of film that feels like, in 2001, it was made at basically the last possible moment. While it was not a wholly original film, it may as well have been, being based on a not very good or successful Rat Pack film from 1960 (which makes this the poster child for good remakes of bad films). Yet it was a giant success and absolutely star studded with a truly stacked cast and a big name director at the height if his powers. It feels like that almost never happens today.

Its also not massively hard to see why. This is an incredibly entertaining and well produced film peppered with (mostly) great performances from the likes of Brad Pitt and George Clooney. The word that comes to mind with every part of this film is slick. The characters are slick in universe, the film looks slick, the editing and pacing are slick, the writing is slick. This is a film that fully embodies what it is about. Helping things is that its also just fun.

Of course the big thing about this film is the twist ending. After effectively a whole film of setup it works like a magician revealing their trick, and makes it all work. Its a really satisfying conclusion to an enjoyable film. Now there are drawbacks here. Don Cheadles so-called British accent is truly awful. Also it does all feel a bit slight when you look back on it. Even taking all that into account though, this film is still really good overall.

4/5

jcgamer
The most average movie on the list, which is pretty good since it means there were 21 above average movies here. Good cast, sleek, competently-made, but doesnt really stand out as special compared to the other 29. And a remake, so not terribly original.
6/10

Johnbobb
Why I included it:
Pretty easily one of the most well-known and influential heist movies of the last several decades. Soderbergh was already a big deal before the series began, but Ocean's Eleven really kind of cemented his style as the style to replicate for the genre going forward. While initial reception to the film was only moderately positive, it's hard to deny the impact that it had on pop culture as a whole.

What I thought:
It's pretty good. Extremely 2000s in its casting, soundtrack, framing, etc. But also, what the fuck was going on with Cheadle's accent here?

Favorite 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
I just think the Y2K cynical-sleek style only works if the thing you're cynical about isn't your exwife

Leaderboard
Inviso: 165
Mythiot: 152
Seginus: 141
Poke: 147
Karo: 145
Seanchan: 140
Johnbobb: 138
Lightning: 135
Suprak: 133
jcgamer: 101

Exactly 5 top-10 rankers and 5 bottom-10 rankers, how about that? The bottom 5s took more of a hit here, none more than myself. The 3-way tie is shattered with Poke on top for the moment. jcgamer finally breaks triple digits, but with over 30 points between 2nd-to-last, so he seems all but untouchable at this point.

Hint for #9: People saw through my clever Bullet Train hint (I thought it was clever anyway) so this time I'll be more straightforward: This movie is about a driver.

Oh man, wasn't expecting THAT type of spread of votes for Ocean's 11!

Johnbobb posted...

If memory serves, twelve is even more fun.

It's been a while since I've seen 12, but I remember liking it way more than most people.

So, next is either Drive, Taxi Driver, or Baby Driver. At a stretch, maybe could be Nightcrawler?

I'm going to go with Taxi Driver just because it's the oldest.

Again, I liked this movie!

1.
2.
3.
4. A Clockwork Orange
5.
6.
7. Heat
8.
9. Dial M for Murder
10.
11.
12. The Man Who Wasnt There
13.
14. Oldboy
15. The Town
16. Serpico
17. M
18. Good Time
19. Bonnie and Clyde
20. Oceans Eleven
21. Raising Arizona
22. Jackie Brown
23. You Were Never Really Here
24. Lon
25. The French Connection
26. Blood Simple
27. Bad Times at the El Royale
28. Burn After Reading
29. Bullet Train
30. The Boondock Saints

Hey, the whole top 9 is in my top 13! Nice! Excited to see which movies a few of you hate. Guessing it will be Baby Driver next.

Gonna say Drive next

Oceans Eleven ahead of The French Connection and especially Heat lol. At this rate might as well say Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness is better than Get Out and The Thing.

The nature of these will always be that less divisive movies will do better. You will not get too many Oceans Eleven haters, and many of us did not -wait for it- connect with The French Connection. Even though I gave it a positive review I was not grabbed by the film. I did think Heat would do better though.

Neat how there isnt really an obvious frontrunner to win it all yet. No Country for Old Men perhaps?

LightningStrikes posted...

Neat how there isnt really an obvious frontrunner to win it all yet. No Country for Old Men perhaps?

Going in, I thought my #1 would be overall #1. I still feel that way. My second guess now would be my #9.

LightningStrikes posted...

The nature of these will always be that less divisive movies will do better. You will not get too many Oceans Eleven haters, and many of us did not -wait for it- connect with The French Connection. Even though I gave it a positive review I was not grabbed by the film. I did think Heat would do better though.

Neat how there isnt really an obvious frontrunner to win it all yet. No Country for Old Men perhaps?

Admittedly I am not used to the idea that The French Connection could be divisive because it is often considered to be one of the best movies to win Best Picture. I liked it a lot more than I thought I would, not necessarily a huge favourite of mine though. Other movies I like about equally include Return of the Jedi and Saving Private Ryan.

Best Picture isn't always a reliable indicator of quality. Look at how poorly-received Shakespeare in Love, Forrest Gump, and Crash were as best picture winners (granted, I loved the latter two, but still).

Shakespeare in Love is an odd one as the film was well received it just had no business beating the films it beat.

Same goes for Spotlight and Green Book.

And I feel like CODA will be in the same place a few years down the line as well

Oh given that Fury Road wasnt going to win I thought Spotlight was a worthy winner and is still very well remembered (just not as much as Fury Road). CODA is an odd one in that like, it wasnt some super amazing film or anything but what beats it? Dune was basically ruled out by being a part one and Power of the Dog proved surprisingly divisive. Definitely got helped by covid there also. Like, CODA was probably my number three or four that year and I suspect it was a lot of voters three or four letting it float to the top.

Which is exactly what often happens on these lists!

9. Taxi Driver (1976)
Directed by Martin Scorsese
Score: 128

Mythiot: 1
Lightning: 5
Seanchan: 5
Seginus: 7
jcgamer: 8
Suprak: 12
Johnbobb: 12
Poke: 20
Inviso: 29
Karo: 29

Lightning
You talkin to me?

Martin Scorseses masterwork of mood and ambiguous morality. This is a film that I had absorbed the plot of from popular culture and its many copycats but now that Ive actually seen it frankly itll be hard to get a lot of this imagery out of my head. From the jazzy main theme to the cinematography and the way nighttime New York is shot the whole film just oozes atmosphere. Robert De Niros performance too is unforgettable.

It is very interesting to look at this films morality and the morality of its central character in the context of Scorseses later work. Travis Bickle at the start is deeply discriminatory and reactionary, and clearly portrayed as a pretty pathetic guy. He lives a sad, slovenly life and even when he manages to charm a beautiful woman enough to go on a date with him he manages an extreme fumble (the cinema scene was cringe inducing). He espouses some pretty extreme views and looks at violence as a way to get what he wants. In some ways hea a prototypical incel and the film knows it. Yet, paradoxically rather than receive a reckoning he, depending on your reading, he ultimately commits a heroic act and gets a happy enough ending. This brings to mind a lot of the discourse around Wolf of Wall Street which got criticism for not strongly condemning the actions of its characters enough.

What helps the film is that it never really loses sight of who Travis is. Moments before his supposedly heroic stand hea trying to assassinate a presidential candidate just because its the only way he thinks he can be anybody. In this the film is pretty clearly saying hea still ultimately a pathetic figure who happens to do a good thing. Had he not been spotted instead be would have murdered somebody for no reason. Instead he gets to be called a hero and live a normal life. That perfect ambiguity of the film itself is summed up when Betsy talks about Traviss contradictions. Here the film is celebrating him and condemning him at once.

Lastly, I have to say, I thought the mohawk look would be a much bigger part of the film than it was. Instead it only appears for the last twenty minutes and is gone before the end of the film. Just another thing that is so iconic its presence becomes outsized compared to its actual role. That does not fit the film as the whole though, which is just terrific.

5/5

Seanchan
Taxi Driver is the story of a right wing incel in the 70s in NYC. Ive seen this movie before and I dont think I really realized that on that initial viewing. But in 2024, its damn hard to not view this film through the modern perspective. Travis has a lonely, hateful view of the world. He becomes obsessed with a girl, gets rejected because he takes to a porno, and falls deeper down into depression. Gets obsessed with guns and trying to be a savior. In the end, he kills some pimps and gets hailed as a hero, and all I could think was, thank god for him he was white.
I enjoyed this overall, despite the depressive subject matter. I guess youd call it a slow paced movie but it never really felt that way to me.
BTW, did you know that the passenger in the cab talking about using a .44 Magnum on his wife was actually the director, Mr. Martin Scorsese?

Seginus
I feel like this movie shouldnt work for me in theory (the content seems wholly unappealing) but the style and tone are on point, and it hits so many resonant notes as a character study that Travis Bickle has understandably become something of a modern archetype. Between Schraders script, Scorseses direction, and De Niros performance theres a complete realization of this person that radiates off the screen. Ive seen it a few times now and the guy always manages to skeeve me out in a way that seems relatively realistic.

On some level this movie is about the alienating effect of transactional-liminal spaces, and I mean that in the most pretentious way possible. But seriously - the taxi, the brothel, that one empty hallway with payphone, the way the camera underlines money changing hands - transaction is a clear thematic focus, liminal space is a primary setting. Travis is, among other things, a product of a dehumanizing environment.

Its important that a plot doesnt really coalesce until the second half, and that we get to know the character in a more episodic, slice-of-life fashion before any real sense of direction falls into his lap. By the time he goes full vigilante mode its clear that hes just fulfilling pent-up bloodlust and the moral crusade is largely incidental, convenient padding for his veneer of normalcy. Self-delusion even, as he recoils at himself in the rear-view mirror - and perhaps so do we, insofar as we see our own monsters in Travis Bickle.

jcgamer
Great movie thats become more relevant in the years since its release. Theres an ever-growing list of films about isolation and mental illness that are partially indebted to Taxi Driver, including one of my favorite horror movies, Saint Maud.

9/10

Johnbobb
Why I included it:
It's fucking Taxi Driver, I mean come on. It's a movie so effective in its portrayal of an unstable gunman that it inspired a real life presidential assassination. To this day Travis Bickle is still misunderstood and propped up by audiences as some sort of vigilante antihero. I considered putting Mean Streets on this list, the first acclaimed collab between Scorsese and DeNiro, but ultimately it's Taxi Driver that really cemented the two together as an iconic combo.

What I thought:
It's fucking Taxi Driver. It's incredible. I mean DeNiro came out of The Godfather Part II thinking "how can I top that?" Now, as much as I love this movie, Travis Bickle is no Vito Corleone, but what he is is something unforgettably disturbing. He's the everyman, the guy who we can see is clearly not stable enough to be trusted but not outwardly dangerous enough to do anything about, until the moment he is. To this day, I'm still not sure how I feel about the ending, with Travis getting off not just free, but celebrated as a hero, and I'd hold that question of whether Travis was the hero or the villain is likely one of the best tests of media literacy out there. And goddamn does that soundtrack never get old.

Favorite 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
doomer jazz

Inviso
This one just wasnt for me, I dont think. I mean, I can appreciate De Niros acting in the role of Travis Bickle, but everything about this movie was unpleasant and gross, through and through. New York in the 70s, based on the movies weve been watching, is a horrible, HORRIBLE place, and its filled with repulsive people. And then you have Travis, who starts the movie out as this misanthropic pick-up artist wannabe, and he only goes downhill from there. Every scene where Travis tries to carry on a conversation with literally any other person outside of his little circle of taxi driver buddies is extraordinarily cringe-worthy and uncomfortable to sit through. And then by sheer luck, he manages to make himself a hero by killing a pimp and the john who hed gotten to pay for pre-teen sex. Yeah, its that kind of movie. The whole thing just made me feel dirty watching it, and Im sorryI want to watch movies to be entertained, not made to feel dirty.

Karo
The story of a guy who dives a funny yellow car in New York, a combination of Shadow the Hedgehog and Rorschach who continuously spews out his aggrieved self-righteous judgment of the world in overdramatic inner monologue. Does that ever get annoying? What do you fucking think.
So after repeatedly stalking this girl he likes, he finally get her to go out on a date, and then promptly takes her to go see a porno. You'd think he would realize that hey man maybe I fucked up a lot here, but no, cue a sexist rant and some more smooth jazz. What a wonderful person.
After a lot more of being a creepy prick and an unsuccessful attempt to assassinate a politician for no apparent reason other than the girl who spurned him was a supporter of said candidate, he takes it upon himself to try and clean up the mean streets of NYC in a series of scenes that would make your average right-wing second amendment psychopath jizz themselves in glee.
So anyway, Travis not only gets away with murder, but ends up a hero in all the newspapers and the girl he in no way deserves now wants to fuck him. Iris is apparently sent back to live with her abusive parents but it is never elaborated upon other than a letter from them stating that 'she's doing fiiiiiine ;)' Press X to doubt.
Like I can't imagine a more unsatisfying ending to what was already a very unsatisfying story.
Travis isn't even this downtrodden and mistreated misanthrope akin to Joaquin Phoenix's Joker or something, He has a steady (if not super glamorous) job, a handful of good friends, and apparently is quite financially secure with how he just throws around money all the time. But its then like 'I didn't get the cocksleeve that I am entitled to so everyone must die reeeeeeeeeee'. It wouldn't be so bad if the movie didn't constantly try to portray Travis as sympathetic or even noble. I don't like this fucker and you cant make me like him, fool.
However, my contempt for this movie goes far beyond the main character.
It is a whole glorification of a world where females have no thoughts and feelings but rather are just prizes to be won or damsels to be rescued. A place where all you need to validate your manhood is to carry ten guns while you bust down some doors and start kicking ass. It's the vigilante wet dream of every weird incel mass shooter wannabe who wants to kill a bunch a people and become famous.
Now I'm not the biggest fan of Scorsese by any metric, but this is just whole new levels of awful and I can think of few movies that have made me as mad watching them as this one.

Leaderboard
Inviso: 185
Karo: 165
Mythiot: 160
Poke: 158
Seginus: 143
Seanchan: 144
Johnbobb: 141
Lightning: 139
Suprak: 136
jcgamer: 102

Huge jump from Karo and moderately large jump from Poke still aren't anywhere close to enough to bring Vis down.

Hint for #8: I frankly can't think of a good hint for this movie that won't give away what the movie is, so take from that what you will.

Well it landed in about the right spot despite some people not getting it

Uhhhhhhhh Shoplifters next, why not

Wow I would not have guessed the two lowest scores left would've been on the same movie at this point in the list! Pretty impressive it still pulled #9 with that big of a drag.

Yeah this feels like around the point Shoplifters should fall so I'll guess that too.

TAXI DRIVAHHH, you've been down too long in the midnight sea...

I love that the poster/credits for Taxi Driver made a big deal about featuring Peter Boyle as "Wizard", like he's gonna be some important character dropping knowledge. And all he gets is one scene where he goes "ayy what do I know I'm just a cabbie". Like, the ironic nickname by itself is whatever but the highlight in the credits is pretty funny to me.

Let's go with Dog Day Afternoon next. Pretty much just a shot in the dark with this one.

8. Shoplifters (2018)
Directed by Hirokazu Koreeda
Score: 123

Johnbobb: 7
Suprak: 7
Mythiot: 8
Karo: 8
Inviso: 10
jcgamer: 10
Lightning: 13
Poke: 14
Seanchan: 21
Seginus: 25

Johnbobb
Why I included it:
Just to fuck with you guys. You all needed to be humbled.

ok but really, I debated a lot whether or not to include Shoplifters. It's not a crime film in the way that anything else on this list is a crime film, despite the fact that it is, from the perspective of the police, about kidnapping, grand larceny, prostitution, fraud, murder and illegal disposal of a corpse. This is such an altogether different take on a crime film, portraying its protagonists as deeply complex people who aren't always "good" but are always doing what they think is best for the people they care about in the moment. It's also possibly the saddest film I've ever seen and I really wanted the chance to talk about it and mutually mourn the experience. Oh also it won the Palme d'Or, if you care about that kind of thing.

What I thought:
After I watched Shoplifters for the first time, I told myself I couldn't ever watch it again. It was just too much. And here I am, watching it again, and here it is, too fucking much.

Favorite 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
So was everyone kidnapped? From what I could put together, the little girl was for sure not their child

Karo
Here in Japan we have the most wholesome crime family ever, who gets by by having the children shoplift stuff from stores.
The story is very subtle, and you don't realize how sinister the actions of this family seem until the very end even though it was right there all along. Like they literally kidnap a small child and bury their grandmother in the basement and you never think to challenge anything they do from a moral standpoint. Even after they face judgment you STILL side with them, that last scene of the girl looking over the balcony and pining over the family that took her, holy shit.
It's just very good and feels quite different than a lot of these movies.

Inviso
This is a rough movie to talk about. Obviously, its not at the very top of my list, but I still ranked it solidly high overall. Its definitely not a FUN movie thoughits very bleak and inherently upsetting by its subject matter. The movie opens with a dad and his son tag-teaming a grocery store to steal food for the nights dinner (hence the title), but shortly thereafter, they come across a little girl in the process of being abused by her awful parents, so they take her home to give a hot mealwhich turns into her being kidnapped/adopted. And all of this is played rather light-heartedly; the abusive parents are HIGHLIGHTED as being abusive, while the kidnappers are painted as poor, yet they showed more love and care for this girl than her biological family ever did.

I think thats what makes this film so interesting to watch: the main family consists of scammers, criminals and people otherwise trying to game the systembut they by and large come across as good people when it comes to caring for one another. Its not like you have a group of assholes who are also assholes to each other, is what I mean. And its only when that morality starts to break down (the dad breaking into cars to steal purses) that Shota loses faith in the system and starts the familys downfall. Even that though, he gets caught while trying to protect his adoptive sister from getting caught herself.

But yeah, the first ninety minutes are a lot of build-up and establishing the familial relationships (mother, father, older sister, grandma, Shota and newly-adopted Yuri/Juri/Lin). But that last half hour is ROUGH. Shota gets caught shoplifting, which brings the police to the house, where they discover what are essentially a family of squatters, who happen to have the little girl thats been missing for the better part of a year. Its revealed that Shota was ALSO shoplifted from a car when he was young, and the sister gets crushed to learn that her grandma was kinda using herbut also that her parents never really gave a shit that she was living with her grandma in the first place. All the lies unravel, and the end result is Shota being sent to an orphanage (where he thrives, admittedly, but still), and Juri returns to her shitty family. Its so bleak, yet its such a compelling story all the same. Really well-done, even if it doesnt rank incredibly high on this list.

jcgamer
What a great surprise this was. Knowing the premise, I thought I would dislike the central characters, but by the end I was very invested and even emotionally moved. A challenging and unique study on the meaning of family.

9/10

Lightning
Children need their mothers.
Thats just what mothers tell themselves.

A very different kind of crime film. This is a slow paced, really emotional look into a found family of, as the title implies, shoplifters in Japan. They rescue a very young girl from an abusive home and the rest of the film is just chronicling them living their lives stealing to get by until it all comes tragically (?) crashing down. Overall I thought this film, for a film that has very little story to it, lands its points and its themes really well. The long scenes of characters just doing their thing all tell you about what life is like for these people.

The cinematography here is terrific. Its not quite documentary style but feels truly real, like you are looking in on these peoples lives. The colours feel real and the framing of the shots is almost voyeuristic. The performances really standout as well, I dont speak Japanese but the emotion was clear, especially in the police station scenes later on. When the story gets to that point, even though you know these people arent doing things the right way its still devastating.

I have to admit, the ending of this film really got me. Just thinking he wasnt going to turn around at all was already sad, so when he does so and mouths dad its like a punch to the gut. Yet despite all the pain the film puts the characters through it remains hopeful, much like the characters themselves are finding joy in a dire situation.

4/5

Seanchan
This movie feels so out of place in this list, at least compared to the ones Ive watched so far. Its a surprisingly low key, non-violent movie about the family we make (rather than the family were born into). I kind of enjoyed it, and theres some surprisingly sweet moments. At the same time, its hard to rate it higher than the more exciting movies.

Seginus
This one is practically a food movie, or at least more of a family drama than it is disorganized crime. There is a parallel to Raising Arizona here with the benevolent kidnapping angle, to which this takes a more sober, realistic approach than the Coens screwball comedy. I like that it doesnt tell us whether we should like the characters or not, its basically up to the viewer. But I have to admit I struggled to retain interest for most of this one, mostly because its an uneventful and ponderous entry in a relatively action-packed list. I might have to revisit this one with a different frame of mind some day, but for now I sleep.

Leaderboard
Inviso: 187
Karo: 165
Poke: 164
Mythiot: 160
Seginus: 160
Seanchan: 157
Johnbobb: 142
Lightning: 144
Suprak: 137
jcgamer: 104

A whole lot of not much this time around for anyone except Seginus and Seanchan, who both get hits just big enough to put them back into the running for the top 3.

Hint for #7: I just realized 8 of the top 10 films were nominated for at least one Oscar! Only 4 of the remaining 7 received more than one nomination though, and this next film is not one of them.

Isnt it actually 5/7 got more than one? Leaving this as between Drive and Nightcrawler. Gonna say Drive then.

Yeah it's Drive

How the f is baby driver still in this

LightningStrikes posted...

Isnt it actually 5/7 got more than one? Leaving this as between Drive and Nightcrawler. Gonna say Drive then.

The Big Lebowski didn't get any Oscar nods, so it could be that too.

Surprised Shoplifters got that high. I figured it'd be more in the 11-15 range.

That my #26 is still alive is concerning to me. I'm really interested to see other people's opinions to try to understand what I missed.

Meh people hated Taxi Driver for precisely the reasons I imagined. Admittedly it took me two watches to really get into it and I knew going in the second time that the screenwriter viewed then-contemporary NYC the same way Travis did and wrote the story for catharsis. Plus I like city settings a bunch and the movie was basically imagined as a contemporary take on a Western. But I have heard dumber reasons for people not liking stuff.

As a response to the last write up, the movie doesnt glorify 1970s New York by any stretch. It just displays it like it was. Thats like saying Fight Club glorifies incels.

pezzicle posted...

How the f is baby driver still in this

I would say the main reason is that it's extremely good

Ah I had interpreted it as one oscar nomination. But yes with that reading it could be The Big Lebowski.

Inviso posted...

Best Picture isn't always a reliable indicator of quality. Look at how poorly-received Shakespeare in Love, Forrest Gump, and Crash were as best picture winners (granted, I loved the latter two, but still).

I also specified that The French Connection typically ranks high on rankings of Best Picture winners, whereas those three are more divisive by comparison.

7. Drive (2011)
Directed by Nicolas Winding Refn
Score: 122

Lightning: 1
Seanchan: 4
Karo: 6
Poke: 8
jcgamer: 15
Suprak: 16
Johnbobb: 16
Inviso: 17
Mythiot: 18
Seginus: 21

Lightning
I drive.

This is an absolutely stunning film that is quite possibly the only Nicholas Winding Refn film I actually like. Yet despite that Ill say it straight up top here, it is one of my favourite films of all time. I remember watching this for the first time and being just blown away by it, and every subsequent time I revisit it Im blown away all over again. Every aspect of this film just works.

The cinematography is stunning, and the longer scenes without much action or plot help to build a real atmosphere. The performances are fantastic, including a chilling turn from Albert Brooks most will not expect. The soundtrack in particular is a highlight, the contrast of the soft electronic sounds with crime and violence gives everything an otherworldly feel to it. The shocking bursts of violence disrupt the almost peaceful sense you get from the long scenes of pleasant driving and kick the film into high gear when it needs it. In particular, Christina Hendricks getting her head blown off is to me one of the defining moments of gore in modern cinema. The other violent scene that is just unforgettable is the elevator scene, which goes from romantic to horrifying in seconds. The violence is not just shocking, it serves a purpose in the film and makes it thrilling.

At the centre of it all though is Ryan Gosling, in his absolutely incredible coat. His performance is subtle but it works for the film, and again contrasts against those moments of violence. Winding Refn has said that he believes this is a superhero movie, as the Driver is very much an iconic character who needs to become a (literally masked at once point) hero to protect people. To that end Goslings performance works. It is working in these broad iconic strokes which contests with the much grittier world of the film. Overall this is a stunning piece of work.

5/5

Seanchan
Drive is a generally slow movie about a loner white guy who is desperate for a connection, punctuated by moments of extremely graphic violence. You can probably say that for a few movies in this list but I really felt it here, and enjoyed this one quite a bit.
The biggest thing for me is that this feels like a movie out of time. I know it came out in 2011, but I would believe you if you said this was a remake of an old 70s/80s movie. Yes, the music is very 80s (and very good) but theres something about the vibe too. The quietness of Goslings character, the cuteness of Mulligan, the over the top villany of Perlmann, the sadsack-ness of Cranstons character. The story isnt that complicated but it tells it well (or well enough for my tastes).
Couple of random thoughts: Why do none of his passengers wear a seatbelt?!? He just never blinks, does he? Holy fuck, her head got blown off!

Karo
A stuntman turned getaway driver must balance love, crime and sweet retro soundtracks.
It may be a scenario that is quite overdone, but to the film's credit, it did not take any of the cliched turns it could have. There was no love triangle or passion fueled murders between the Driver and his new crush's ex-con husband. There is no forced and unnatural happy ending.
A highlight of the film is its really good cinematography, it could seriously could be used as a tutorial on how to properly shoot car chases (you wouldn't believe how often this element gets fucked up with shakycam or excessive angle cutting).
It is something that stood out to me in terms of memorability where similar movies didn't, and I guess that led to me ranking it this high.

jcagmer
I was prepared to give this an 8 with about 20 minutes left but the end fell flat for me. Its kinda unfair, but I cant help but compare this to Baby Driver, which did a similar concept but like waaaaayyyyyyy way way way better. Makes this seem kinda mediocre. Funny to hear that synthwave track after years of just seeing the memes.

7/10

Johnbobb
Why I included it:
Drive stunned everyone when it dropped. Gosling up to that point was primarily known as the lead from The Notebook, having just begun to stretch his dramatic potential through movies like Half Nelson and Blue Valentine, though still primarily in a romantic focus. Then Drive dropped, and it felt like a massive twist on his previous roles. He was still a romantic lead, but in a viscerally violent and stoic fashion that was completely counter to his typical charisma. In fact, there was a lot of talk of a Best Actor Oscar for Gosling here, but ultimately the Academy was too cowardly to recognize a performance in which he stomps a man's face into a pulp as Oscar-worthy. I also included it because the opening pairs extremely well with Baby Driver's. If you're following along and haven't watched the movies, just watch those two opening scenes back to back and see how the comparison of how the two of them were handled.

What I thought:
It's sleek, it's cool as hell. It's grimy and unsettling, and it features one of the coolest fucking jackets ever put to screen.

Favorite 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
Was Oscar Isaac just here to give toasts

Inviso
I would say the back half of this movie is very good. The plotting really amps up and shit starts hitting the fan, and you get a nice little storyline about mafia in-fighting in a way that makes everything feel like such a bleak waste of lifebut in a GOOD way. Basically, once the pawn shop robbery goes sideways, Im hooked on everything else that happens: Ryan Gosling flips a switch and becomes a goddamn assassin, helping to clean up organized crime in Los Angeles in a way that the police department could only ever HOPE to do. The main issue, and the reason why the film ranks this low on my list (which is still relatively middling as of the 4/5 mark of my watchthrough), is that Im just not a fan of the pacing early on.

Now, I DO get it. The first half of the movie is building up the bond with Ryan Gosling and Carey Mulligan to establish why hed put his life on the line to help protect Oscar Isaac (who, by the way, doesnt come across like your stereotypical douchey criminal romantic partner like you might expect, given that Gosling is our hero and Mulligan is mean to be HIS love interest). Genuinely, I appreciate that the movie bothers to give Isaac some positive characterization and make his death actually feel BAD, rather than oh shit, that character is dead and now IM in trouble too. But yeah, I think the first half of the movie is a little slow, and I dont necessarily know if Gosling himself is an interesting or dynamic enough character PRIOR to going on his rampage, to warrant the level of dedication he gets in terms of screentime. Also, the slow pacing in the front half makes the back half feel rushed, with a bunch of early elements being shoved back into the plot in a way that feels more convenient than realistic.

So yeah, ultimately I think the movie is a definite tale of two halves, and while I think its MUCH better to start slow and end strong than vice versa, its still not quite my taste, exactly, so I have to rank it this low overall.

Seginus
A strangely stylish movie about a stoic psychopath with a cool jacket. This is where Ryan Gosling proved has the chops to play an android or a plastic doll (I kid, but he is good at that). Its also one of those movies where you revisit it after a decade and everyone got way more famous, I totally forgot Bryan Cranston and Oscar Isaac were in this. But for however stylish it is, I never found much substance here. Like, what is it trying to say? Is it just good guy vs. bad guys? Am I supposed to question if hes a real human being and a real hero as per the song? I dont get it.

Leaderboard
Inviso: 197
Seginus: 174
Mythiot: 171
Karo: 166
Poke: 165
Seanchan: 160
Johnbobb: 151
Lightning: 150
Suprak: 146
jcgamer: 112

Drive places high despite many middle-of-the-road rankings, primarily because it's one of the only movies that nobody scored low enough to really tank. We've got a little movement here, with Seginus and Mythiot pushing up to 2nd and 3rd place, as the 2nd-5th race continues to be the most exciting thing in the leaderboard. Will Inviso double jcgamer by the end of the ranking?

Hint for #6: This movie shares at least one actor with another movie in this ranking.

jcgamer107 posted...

I would say the main reason is that it's extremely good

its a great movie yes but its certainly not better than many of the movies on this list

Drive is a movie I initially watched years ago and kind of forgot just how good it is. Was really great to get to revisit it.

That hint seems like fool's gold considering how many repeated appearances there are amongst these films, especially given the Coen Bros tendencies. I'm just going to say Dog Day Afternoon again because at this point it would be the only winner I'm unhappy with.

Shoplifters was such a pleasant surprise. I always like going into these lists and finding some movie I've never heard of that I absolutely love.