Current Events > Article on Schumer's upcoming book where he discusses 'antisemitism on the left'

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gwynevere posted...

I'm mostly confused about the relevance of this line of questioning because I haven't seen Jews being expected to openly disavow Israel in leftist spaces, so why would Muslims be expected to disavow KSA?

Then you haven't been in them enough. There have been such spaces that have banned the Star of David for years, that clearly state Zionists (defined as not supporting the complete disestablishment of the country) are unwelcome, if they're not outright demanding Jews answer if they support Israel. These are all things said by Jews in those leftist spaces. But a lot of them are used to bringing this up and having it dismissed or downplayed by gentiles. Good luck with an argument that you'll get Jews to not speak about double standards on antisemitism by noting how gentiles don't take it seriously.

I don't know a single person who has been openly Jewish on the Internet and hasn't been demanded to answer for Israel, and sometimes not just on the Internet. I've had a manager ask me where I stand on it when I asked to take a day off for Passover. I know LGBTQ Jews who have said they feel physically unsafe at pride events when they hadn't before.

It is wild to me that progressives understand that people who aren't part of marginalized minority groups need to listen, and not argue or downplay their experiences, but will argue "well, I haven't seen that much antisemitism, so I think you're overreacting!"

The_cranky_hermit posted...

I don't know a single person who has been openly Jewish on the Internet and hasn't been demanded to answer for Israel, and sometimes not just on the Internet. I've had a manager ask me where I stand on it when I asked to take a day off for Passover. I know LGBTQ Jews who have said they feel physically unsafe at pride events when they hadn't before.

It is wild to me that progressives understand that people who aren't part of marginalized minority groups need to listen, and not argue or downplay their experiences, but will argue "well, I haven't seen that much antisemitism, so I think you're overreacting!"

Imagine if they said to a black person, "Well, I haven't seen that much racism against blacks, so I think you're overreacting!"

The_cranky_hermit posted...

I don't know a single person who has been openly Jewish on the Internet and hasn't been demanded to answer for Israel, and sometimes not just on the Internet. I've had a manager ask me where I stand on it when I asked to take a day off for Passover. I know LGBTQ Jews who have said they feel physically unsafe at pride events when they hadn't before.

It is wild to me that progressives understand that people who aren't part of marginalized minority groups need to listen, and not argue or downplay their experiences, but will argue "well, I haven't seen that much antisemitism, so I think you're overreacting!"

But these people haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist and all the Jews who keep saying it does need to be shouted down and told their experiences didn't happen.

I had a point where I said Kanye was making Jews unsafe last year and one person said "If you have time to be upset about that, why can't you do something about the genocide being committed in your name?" To zero condemnation. Or the article in the NYT that featured a bunch of activists literally complaining Jews only care about themselves etc etc.

He doesn't think it is a genocide, he puts the word in quotes, sickening.

LightSnake posted...

Zionists (defined as not supporting the complete disestablishment of the country) are unwelcome

That definition is correct and those who don't support it should be unwelcome in leftist spaces as anything other than that is supporting a violent colonial regime.

Israel is a de facto apartheid/ethno state created by British imperialists at the detriment of the people already living there.

Leftists should not support anything other than the dismantling of the state and establishing a secular government dedicated to establishing equal protection under the law to people of all ethnicities and faiths. (Realistically the area will not survive a stateless solution so supporting that is clearly ridiculous)

Leftists supporting anything such as forced removal of the people there are insane and absolutely a blight.

AnsestralRecall posted...

That definition is correct and those who don't support it should be unwelcome in leftist spaces as anything other than that is supporting a violent colonial regime.

Israel is a de facto apartheid/ethno state created by British imperialists at the detriment of the people already living there.

Leftists should not support anything other than the dismantling of the state and establishing a secular government dedicated to establishing equal protection under the law to people of all ethnicities and faiths. (Realistically the area will not survive a stateless solution so supporting that is clearly ridiculous)

Exactly what I'm talking about here, and it's especially trying from someone living in the US of all places. Even Jews who disagree with Israel's actions and support a Palestinian state are still held to the standard of being excluded and derided.

Israel isn't going anywhere. The state exists, it continues to exist and there is no will for it to stop existing. It's a nuclear power with 9 million people in it, most of whom are rather attached to the idea of having a country. At some point, the bleating of people also living in a de facto apartheid/ethno state created by British imperialists (which has at least shed several of those qualities. Somewhat) comes off as prizing their moral purity more than any actual solution and again highlights the double standard. Like, hate to tell you, but the response to "Israel is a racist settler colony" is "Okay. Now what?" Canada and Australia are also going to continue to exist, too.

When you slap the same label on Likudniks, Kahanists and people who are aghast at Israel's actions, despite Netanyahu but also recognize that there's no way to make a nuclear power with population of millions stop being a country then you've become an obstacle to your supposed goals, but the Left is very, very good at prizing purity over result.

Leftists supporting anything such as forced removal of the people there are insane and absolutely a blight.

This view would get you derided as one of those Zionists in some of these spaces.

LightSnake posted...

Then you haven't been in them enough

That's a bit convenient though, isn't it? I've ran with circles of leftists both on and offline for many, many years. But it's never long enough, right?

Obviously people on the left are not immune from prejudice, and will engage in racism, xenophobia, transphobia, etc. That shit does happen. But leftist spaces will also tend to be the ones to weed that shit out the quickest. That's been my experience.

Gwynevere posted...

That's a bit convenient though, isn't it? I've ran with circles of leftists both on and offline for many, many years. But it's never long enough, right?

It's kind of amazing how this always goes when a minority group speaks up about mistreatment in circles. Even when it's their personal experiences or people they know (and to be clear, many Jews have spoken up about it)...there's always someone not part of the group to smirk and go "Well, /I/ haven't seen it."

You're doing a fantastic job of demonstrating that you are not open to even considering it and nobody would have any reason to trust you with it. Because, obviously, nobody who's been part of these circles for "a long time" could miss anything, or it could be happening where they don't see it. Or it happens with them and they don't pick up on the same aggressions and discriminations as members of those groups.

Nah. They've been there a long time. They know better.

Obviously people on the left are not immune from prejudice, and will engage in racism, xenophobia, transphobia, etc. That shit does happen. But leftist spaces will also tend to be the ones to weed that shit out the quickest. That's been my experience.

Please. Ask a number of women how they have been treated in, say, the DSA organizations. Some of them became hotbeds of sexual harassment and assault, with women who spoke up against them ignored and shamed. In 2014 on, Syrian refugees were derided as CIA shills back when defending Assad became fashionable.

Jews were speaking about the treatment they received for long time now. But I'm so glad you never saw anything and you are here to tell us how quickly they shut this down. Didn't see much shutting down anything in this topic, even though several Jewish posters went "hey, this's kinda messed up."

Nah, just a lot of smug shouting and talking down. But I'm so glad you haven't seen any of it. We can be so reassured by that.

Gwynevere posted...

But leftist spaces will also tend to be the ones to weed that shit out the quickest. That's been my experience.

Not exactly across the board, Light's not wrong.

Part of a safe zone training I developed talks about it, the whole "we're the ones on the right side of history, the straights are the one who needs education" assumption that "membership equals competence" that leads groups to not recognize homo/bi/transphobia in their own circles.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I am not, in fact, trying to say leftissts are "wrong and immoral." I am saying there is an antisemitism issue on the left and double standards to how Jews are treated. But it is convenient you dismiss all those. And here you are again, being a dick and ready to gasp how mean people are to you if they respond in kind.

Please tell us your experiences, though. Tell us about this "weeding out" that you've seen or participated in.

Regardless of what you think - there is a problem with antisemitism, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc. within leftist circles and while they are less likely to be to the degree that would be experienced in right wing groups it happens.

The term brocialist existed for a reason (until those fucks jumped ship to the alt right anyways)

LightSnake posted...

Antisemites cause antisemitism. And antisemites always have an excuse for why Jews are to blame for antisemitism. That predates Israel by centuries.

I'm sorry, but this is again evidence of that double standard. It's acceptable on the left to say "Israel causes antisemitism" whereas "Saudi Arabia causes Islamophobia" would receive actual pushback. A country with the holy Shehada on its flag that literally starved hundreds of thousands to death just a few years ago.

pointing out that Israel is in the middle of committing a genocide is not antisemitism.

In left wing circles, bigotry is egregious. In right wing circles, it's mandatory.

thronedfire2 posted...

pointing out that Israel is in the middle of committing a genocide is not antisemitism.

You're correct, that's not antisemitism. That was not what was being said.
AnsestralRecall posted...

Regardless of what you think - there is a problem with antisemitism, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc. within leftist circles and while they are less likely to be to the degree that would be experienced in right wing groups it happens.

The term brocialist existed for a reason (until those fucks jumped ship to the alt right anyways)

This isn't exculpatory. The Left should not be defining itself as "at least we're better than the right on it." That's a pretty low bar.

LightSnake posted...

This isn't exculpatory. The Left should not be defining itself as "at least we're better than the right on it." That's a pretty low bar.

I wasn't stating that to attempt to let leftists off the hook - purely matter of factly. Leftists can often be guilty of the things they stand against (specifically white/Western/cis/het/etc. ones) and it is important to listen to the criticisms from marginalized groups.

Which I'm willing to do even regarding Israel. It isn't on any one Jewish person to answer for the crimes of Israel other than those who support the aggressive actions of the Israeli state - which is not a Netanyahu & his administration specific thing. It is built into the very history of the nation and as long as it exists as a Jewish ethnostate it will continue to be a problem.

AnsestralRecall posted...

I wasn't stating that to attempt to let leftists off the hook - purely matter of factly. Leftists can often be guilty of the things they stand against (specifically white/Western/cis/het/etc. ones) and it is important to listen to the criticisms from marginalized groups.

Which I'm willing to do even regarding Israel. It isn't on any one Jewish person to answer for the crimes of Israel other than those who support the aggressive actions of the Israeli state - which is not a Netanyahu & his administration specific thing. It is built into the very history of the nation and as long as it exists as a Jewish ethnostate it will continue to be a problem.

Israel is very much a supremacist state. Unfortunately, the ship has sailed on that, and that's just reality as it stands. The issue that many gentile leftists simply do not understand is many Jews do not agree with Jewish supremacy.

Their mindset is usually to appreciate there being a Jewish state as a matter of "I have a place to go if we are threatened again." It tends to get roundly mocked or downplayed rather than engaged with and a huge reason why Jews do not put their trust in "you'll be safe here, promise," because "things are fine and now they're not" is a pretty big recurrence in Jewish history. Like right now, open Nazis are gaining footholds in the US. Literally every Jewish person I know is to some degree unnerved by that and the President actively declaring that Schumer is "no longer a Jew. He's a Palestinian," which is actual antisemitism as opposed to "accuse Israel of crime it commits." Also opens a pretty nasty door if the right wing can revoke a Jewish person's status on the basis of disagreeing with or not liking them. This isn't like the asshole settlers who move from Brooklyn to the west Bank to LARP at playing Ancient Judea.

Lumping all these people into the same category as Ben-Gvir and excluding them is shooting any movement for solidarity and justice in the foot and getting rid of allies for no good reason, especially when it doesn't go unnoticed the purity tests are sometimes quite selectively applied.

Is Lightsnake eagles? Im getting deja vu......

Nah, LS has recognized the existence of other genocides, as well as the non-Jewish Holocaust victims.

Eagles either didn't believe that non-Jews were targeted as well or he thought "only the Jewish victims mattered" (which if it was the latter is almost a direct quote). Not entirely sure.

DrizztLink posted...

Nah, LS has recognized the existence of other genocides, as well as the non-Jewish Holocaust victims.

I have no idea who posted, but if that's what I think it said, they can cordially fuck off.

One of my most formative memories was my first Holocaaust museum when the guide said "It happened before, to the Armenians. It happened in the Congo. It happened again in Rwanda, in Cambodia, and the Balkans."

The idea I don't acknowledge genocide if they don't involve the Jews? Yeah, no. And yeah, I can tell most off the numbers of the other victims of the Holocaust. The Romani, Disabled, Gay men political prisoners, Afro-Germans...and the other victims of Nazi genocides typically not recognize as part of the Holocaust.

Jews were the primary target and the majority of the casualties. That doesn't mean Jewish lives were "worth more."

tb333 posted...

Is Lightsnake eagles? Im getting deja vu......

Definitely not.

DrizztLink posted...

Nah, LS has recognized the existence of other genocides, as well as the non-Jewish Holocaust victims.

Eagles either didn't believe that non-Jews were targeted as well or he thought "only the Jewish victims mattered" (which if it was the latter is almost a direct quote). Not entirely sure.

Tbf I didnt see when eagles was making that argument, makes sense why there gone. I was referring to walls of text and loose "israel" defences. Dont know my CE lore I guess.

Eagles was outright a bad person. I don't get that impression from LS in any way even if we don't see eye to eye.

LightSnake posted...

I have no idea who posted, but if that's what I think it said, they can cordially fuck off.

They just asked if you were the guy who did say that as opposed to directly accusing you of being them.

So more or less the same thing but the former is the coward's approach.

DrizztLink posted...

They just asked if you were the guy who did say that as opposed to directly accusing you of being them.

So more or less the same thing but the former is the coward's approach.

Ill repeat, I didnt know eagles said that. Giant walls of text when talking about the subject is what I was talking about. Sorry I missed that episode of CE. Also why did that offend you so much? Wasnt talking about you.....

You've got a real bad track record of thinking "dismissive" and "offended" are synonyms.

tb333 posted...

Is Lightsnake eagles? Im getting deja vu......

only if you're very stupid

Eagles was the guy who said anyone who criticized Israeli leadership was antisemitic and a Hamas sympathizer.

He also said that Israeli leadership are the good guys, are morally correct, and never once lied and to claim different was also antisemitic. He also didn't care about Palestinian POWs or what was happening to the Palestinian people because "they're all terrorists".

LightSnake has neither said nor implied anything as such.

Strider102 posted...

Eagles was the guy who said anyone who criticized Israeli leadership was antisemitic and a Hamas sympathizer.

He also said that Israeli leadership are the good guys, are morally correct, and never once lied and to claim different was also antisemitic. He also didn't care about Palestinian POWs or what was happening to the Palestinian people because "they're all terrorists".

LightSnake has neither said nor implied anything as such.

Which guy is posting this?

LightSnake posted...

Which guy is posting this?

I'm just clarifying the person Eagles was

Strider102 posted...

I'm just clarifying the person Eagles was

Oh, no, just who you're responding to. Wondering if it's the guy who kept saying I was pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine

LightSnake posted...

Oh, no, just who you're responding to. Wondering if it's the guy who kept saying I was pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine

Wasn't responding to anyone in particular, saw people talking about Eagles so I decided to get involved.

LightSnake posted...

Oh, no, just who you're responding to. Wondering if it's the guy who kept saying I was pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine

tb333 is who did the initial question asking if you are this eagles person.

So he's focused on the antisemitism on the left but Trump isn't an anti-semite

https://bsky.app/profile/jakemgrumbach.bsky.social/post/3lkvokbieik2h

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/53de0f98.jpg