Board 8 > Mercenaries 4 Mafia Topic 2: The One Where Kanzaris Still Puts Up The Topics

(+) Yeah! (+)

I voted Leo because I thought he wasn't doing what I wanted him to:

I thought he would be hungrier to hunt!

Then again I'm not exactly hungry either maybe I am not one to talk
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UltimaterializerX posted...

IGCD, do you have any suspects besides me?

At the moment, you AND Corrik are my top suspects. Ben has been lackluster and that is not normal for him as town, so I would throw him on a list as well. At the moment I don't really have much else, as you and Corrik have kind of taken all the spotlight with your petty bickering making everything else seem less relevant.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Okay we're at peak hours, there is no way I'm the only player here.

Oiler game and they just went down by one.
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Peak hours he says. While I'm in bed with one eye open o_x

##Vote: Death There's my end of irl day vote
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UltimaterializerX posted...

If it was inactivity reasons I can buy it. Do you agree about my catching Corrik? You mentioned as the CT host having a pretty good read/tell on him yourself.

I kinda do but it's probably not the same as yours

but he seemed a little better when you were doing your spam wall thing. You really do not need to do that!
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I still suspect the replace and want him to claim because the odds of it being some great Town role are low. Didnt like his word choices like "odd" and "strange" to describe player's alignments. And I didnt like the dancing around whether or not he was going to agree with Lopen about my Miller joke. He had defended me right away saying it was a joke, but at one point it seemed like he was testing the waters to try and jump me by calling my actions "strange"
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^Ugh meant to quiote your post ulti. Always forget
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Finally home

This day took for fucking ever god damn

gimme an hour or so to look at what happened
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Before I post impressions, tally for everyone

Unofficial Vote Tally:

[4] Ben: (Ulti), Scare, MZero, Leo1, Leo2
[2] Johnbobb: Kan, Tony
[2] Corrik: Shad, (VI), Ulti
[2] Ulti: God, Corrik
[1] Oddity: Lopen
[1] Leo: (VI), (Ben), Death, (Oddity), (Chris)
[1] Death: (Chris), Ben
[0] Chris: (Corrik)
[0] Kan: (MZero)
[0] MZero: (Oddity)
[0] Lopen: (God), (Oddity), (Ulti), (Chris)
[0] VI: (Ulti), (Ulti), (Oddity), Oddity
[0] God: (Ulti), (Oddity)
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Whoops VI should be at one vote I think, mah bad

Unofficial Vote Tally Mk. II:

[4] Ben: (Ulti), Scare, MZero, Leo1, Leo2
[2] Johnbobb: Kan, Tony
[2] Corrik: Shad, (VI), Ulti
[2] Ulti: God, Corrik
[1] Oddity: Lopen
[1] Leo: (VI), (Ben), Death, (Oddity), (Chris)
[1] Death: (Chris), Ben
[1] VI: (Ulti), (Ulti), (Oddity), Oddity
[0] Chris: (Corrik)
[0] Kan: (MZero)
[0] MZero: (Oddity)
[0] Lopen: (God), (Oddity), (Ulti), (Chris)
[0] God: (Ulti), (Oddity)
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Notes compiled while doing this vote tally:

-Didn't like Death's bandwagon onto Leo one bit. I THINK it's a town Death bandwagon and I just don't like it because it reads lazy. Not 100% though - Death is one of like three players I have no strong clean reads on, alongside plum and peej.
-@UltimaterializerX : You asked me why I wasn't being aggressive. The answer is I had to enroll into my classes for this year today and it's been kind of a fucking nightmare. It says in one place that I didn't pass the writer's workshop first exam which means I have to spend a full semester running extra courses before I'm allowed to start in earnest, but in another place it says I passed. I'm gonna have to go to the college facilities tomorrow to ask what the hell's up and it's got me way too worried because this is for writer's school I really really fucking want to be a writer. And for writing, anything that helps level up your game is gold.
-@Lopen : This is late but Dante as a miller is much more convincing to me than PJ. If the role Kanzaris isn't scum (and I think it isn't - but more on this later when I get to Leo), then PJ as miller makes no sense. There's no faction to hang him with. I haven't played a gravy game so I don't know if he deliberately fucks with flavor to prevent metaing based on it, but it just feels wrong compared to Dante. Thing is that the likelihood of scum not having a single dude who knows the flavor and thinks PJ works is really low (like in terms of pure numbers - we have you, me, chris, Johnbobb, Corrik, scare...statistically the chances of no scum being ex-players or admins is just low)...so yeah, I think Ben is probably not scum just off metaing the role (and his play hasn't given me a reason to think otherwise either), but I do think the claim is BS. Debating what he's trying to hide ATM.
-Scare comes in and talks about how Corrik is way more (meaningfully) active than I've seen him before and I agree. Lots of discussion on this. Ulti, if you had to point at any specific things that weren't just activity to tell whether corrik is scum or town, what would it be? Any tics he has that only show up when he's on a certain team?
-MZero's vote on Leo is pretty strongly scummy. Don't like it at all. Feels wagony.
-Same for VI's move from Leo. 'Too bored', really now?
-Leo's claim as doublevoter fits. Catch is, it fits too well, and it's a very important 'case' to solve because if you put a gun to my head and asked me who was a shoe-in for a scumteam, it woulda been me, trdl, boko, GANON and Mewtwo - the Meeting Room conspiracy that opposed gravy's own bloc. If role-Kanzaris turns out to be town, that makes a lot of pieces click because we can make some pretty likely guesses about what the flavor split is. Also, there's two minions that could count for giving role-me doublevotes, and one of these applied at a certain point in time and another at a different juncture. Leo, level with me here: What letter does the minion's name start with?
-Oddity has jumped around a LOT with his votes and it kinda stands out to me because they feel very reactive. But he's 'shooting from the hip' and none of them feel wrong or unexplainable. Getting a solidly town read from him, just town that focuses a lot on the game at hand instead of 'the archive' (as I think of the evidence backlog from past games).
-Johnbobb is still lurky, but he's posted a bit more and his defense feels more like 'townie who's annoyed at being pegged for inactivity' than 'panicky scum'. Feeling better about him now, enough to downgrade him to 'null tell'.
-MZero, by contrast, sticks out to me as really bad with that wagon vote. That's twice he's done something like that. Dude's pretty fishy.

##Unvote
##Vote: MZero

Ulti feels strongly town to me this game. Not sure about his read on Corrik though, but I do feel more inclined to trust him. His behavior is just nothing like CT or Hearthstone. Need those extra details!
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(also, for emphasis: THAT TALLY IS UNOFFICIAL. @greengravy294 please confirm if the second leo vote is for reals or not, PLS)
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Oh, btw - I should be around a bunch tomorrow. If anybody has any further questions, just hit me with 'em, I should (keyword: SHOULD, but I remain optimistic) be able to participate properly for most of the day. Sorry about the massive inactivity today guys, school stuff legit had me tearing my hear out.
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Oh, and to clarify the 'if role kanzaris isn't scum...' line addressed at Lopen because it looks like a complete logical leap without my full train of thought: My take on it is that PJ is a miller only if the setup's mafia is 'players who ruined the game' or gravy is trying to get clever with deliberate flavor meta sabotage. Both him and I fall pretty solidly in that camp in the eyes of a lot of people, gravy included, and that's about the only angle I can see him being a miller with. Dante as miller is much more of a 'makes sense' thing though - so I buy Scare's miller claim, at least for now. He's been kinda quiet but what he's said has had value.
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I guess that is a pretty poor yet town post.
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Corrik posted...

I guess that is a pretty poor yet town post.

Corrik, why do you feel like Ulti has to be scum? Because like, legit, man, you gave me the tip that got me investigating him and finally gave me a solid read on whether he was scum or town last game and I'm really not feeling the 'ulti as scum' angle. He's just too active when he's not being poked and questioned, he's doing things instead of reacting. That was one of the key factors that got me to push for his lynch, the fact he disappeared completely and when he came back DIDN'T give us the Ulti Effort (TM) that he puts in as town. So what's your tell here? Is it that he's being venomous again? Or something more?
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Corrik posted...

I guess that is a pretty poor yet town post.

Corrik, why do you feel like Ulti has to be scum? Because like, legit, man, you gave me the tip that got me investigating him and finally gave me a solid read on whether he was scum or town last game and I'm really not feeling the 'ulti as scum' angle. He's just too active when he's not being poked and questioned, he's doing things instead of reacting. That was one of the key factors that got me to push for his lynch, the fact he disappeared completely and when he came back DIDN'T give us the Ulti Effort (TM) that he puts in as town. So what's your tell here? Is it that he's being venomous again? Or something more?

1. He is clearly being venomous. He has admitted outright he is trolling, spamming the game, and trying to annoy people.

2. He has clearly lied at multiple points. I have pointed out these lies clearly. He has absolutely no read on me and he has made that clear as nothing he has said lines up with prior games or his prior statements.

3. He tends to be extremely LESS active as town. This is backed up by his previous games. He just doesn't seem to care about games as much as Town. Any game he has been extremely active in the past year, he has been scum.
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2. He has clearly lied at multiple points. I have pointed out these lies clearly. He has absolutely no read on me and he has made that clear as nothing he has said lines up with prior games or his prior statements.

Can you link me to the posts where you dissect the lies pls? I believe you, but I want to see how everything stacks up together. A large body of evidence tends to say way more than a single one-off tell.
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wont be able to catch up properly before I go to work
but did anyone notice how Ben seems to be soft-summoned a lot?
every time he gets mentioned, he starts posting again
yes he's posting from his on work, but it still comes off as suspicious timing-wise

also yeah that 'scan as town' post is just bizarrely phrased
as if he was scum godfather and he didnt want to pass a technical lie
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1. In FFCC, I was scum. He was Town. He poisoned me night 1 with a schizo role. He said he targeted me cuz he thought I was a top town player (cuz he had a bg). When pointed out all his abilities were basically negative besides BG so it made no sense to target me this way if he thought I was a top town, he changes his story that I was his top scum suspicion and dangerous as scum so I had to be went after early.

Contradiction: I am so obvious as scum it is pathetic.

This does not line up with his previous game.

2. In FFCC, Ulti said I was scum if he flipped town. When people pointed out that was a logical fallacy as me tracking him to me did not make me scum if he was town as town tracker would have gotten the same result. Ulti acknowledges this is correct and that I could be town or scum no matter his flip.

Contradiction: This game Ulti says he easily pegged me as scum through some scumtell that he has never mentioned any previous game.

This does not line up with his previous game.

3. Ulti says I tunnel town players as scum. And it is my scumtell. That I tunneled him in FFCC.

Contradiction: I am a notoriously known busser, who regularly gives out correct information when faking scans or when giving out reads on players as scum. Notoriously bussed MenuWars in Wrestling Mafia hosted by Ulti so hard day 1 that him, our roleblocker, almost died at deadline the first day. I regularly tell my scummates not to worry if I go after them because no one will listen to me and let them skate. I did go after him in FFCC because I had tracked him to me and was poisoned which made him an easy mislynch. I also am said to be unreadable by almost everyone I supposedly appear to be scummy as either Town or Scum.

This does not fit with previous games.

4. Ulti says I am 100% scum. That I am ironclad caught.

Contradiction: Ulti says this repeatedly ad nauseum but does not vote for me. In fact, it is only after I point out how as scum he calls people scum and does not vote for them and others say he looks scummy for it that he ever does put that vote down. 1. It points out his fabricated reasoning on me. And 2. It is a clear point to his scumtell.

5. Ulti is venomous. He admits he is trying to annoy people. He repeatedly spams a post over and over which amounts to nothing. He also after told that if he would not stop they would replace out, continues doing so on purpose. He insults the user repeatedly as well.

Coincides with: Multiple games were Ulti has berated people and lashed out in regards to forcing a mislynch on Town power or instead of his own correct lynch.

6. Ulti keeps falling back onto his claim.

Problems: His claim is generally a scum role and a generally safe claim as an early claim. It could be his death knell late in game as the setup becomes clear. However, Ulti himself has said he does ploys with his intention to die later in the game as Scum. Notably, he made this same statement last game with intention to die day 2.

7. Ulti appealed to the game afterwards. He made it a point to tag a bunch of people and ask a bunch of random questions. The weird part is. He only does that once he is trying to get people to support him on a lynch which is clearly fabricated in all parts pertaining to it.


Main gist: Ulti is purposely emulating his scum play this game or is scum. The easiest answer is usually the correct answer. Thus he is scum.
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...Man. I disagree on 5 (somebody tag me after like, 12 AM EST or thereabouts so I can explain this when I'm not tired guys, I gotta go take a blood test at that point but should be back a couple hours later once I've sorted out school stuff), but the rest actually makes a lot of sense. I really want to hear Ulti's rebuttal because he still just, like, feels town (primarily due to my disagreements on point 5, I think), but that's a pretty well-constructed case actually. I'm impressed. You absolutely have my attention on this case now, whereas I was almost ready to dismiss it outright earlier.
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*correction: I gotta go take a blood test circa 10 AM EST. I will probably be back home by 12, or not much longer than that. It can't take more than a couple hours to sort out the college mess.
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Also.

My scumtell is I tunnel Town as Scum.

Contradiction: Who did I tunnel Day 1 last game? JC. His alignment was town. My alignment was town.

The difference also? I tunnel into people to get reads and claims early in games as both alignments.

What doesn't add up her? Ulti has already claimed. There is no forcing a claim here. I believe him to legitimately be scum.
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gonna be a hypocrit and respond to some Me-issues first

benjamin3740 posted...

I still suspect the replace and want him to claim because the odds of it being some great Town role are low. Didnt like his word choices like "odd" and "strange" to describe player's alignments. And I didnt like the dancing around whether or not he was going to agree with Lopen about my Miller joke. He had defended me right away saying it was a joke, but at one point it seemed like he was testing the waters to try and jump me by calling my actions "strange"

1. not something I can help
2. odd and strange are perfect words to use when you dont know yet what stuff says about alignment
There is such a level between towny and scummy after all.
3. I did no such thing. I explained how I thought it was a joke and strange at the same time
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Yeah in general I don't buy into 'X tunnels hard' arguments because tunnelling becomes good play if you feel like you have a strong read on someone. Why would you let a lynch go if you think it's the best one for the day? Surely there's always something more substantial to say about any player.
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also in particular
going after the replacement is like the laziest stance you can take
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also Leo's a doublevoter huh

##Unvote
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One post's enough ulti, srsly >_>

Hmm. On one hand, it really doesn't make sense to claim Untargetable like that. Like...even as a gambit it's just kinda silly. It creates unnecessary risk, which inclines me towards saying Ulti is town. On the other had, the triplepost kinda backs up Corrik's words...

Hmm. Gut says Corrik is trying to help town. Gut AND reads say Ulti is trying to help town too. Mind says in conclusion that you guys are both town and neither's a good lynch.
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Ulti becomes a good lynch if he posts that shit one more time. Christ.
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Will go read Crystal Chronicles mafia again after I wake and come home btw - I did that with an eye on Ulti the first time (at corrik's behest while researching him), but studying Corrik should be useful too. I'll provide impressions on that (I'm also still trawling through mtgsalvation stuff to try and develop any kind of read on Chris as well, but that's going kinda slower. I feel like FFCC takes priority because these lynches feel wrong to me and I wanna see if it can change my mind or not).
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I believe anyone could compare this game to the last game and to the FFCC game where you were Town and say this game very closely matches your Last game pretty closely in comparison to your town game.


By all means, I insist you all go read FFCC mafia and see Ulti's normal Town play.
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