From: Wanglicious | #454 i did list henry there man. henry in his run had more main event cred than anybody. rey also occasionally gets the ME treatment, before getting the midcard treatment.
"Main-event treatment before getting the midcard treatment" is exactly my point.
Would you be shocked if by June, Mark Henry is a midcarder again? I wouldn't be!
Henry's feud with Orton was the same as Punk's feud with Cena in that it was a strong start to a main-event push that could really get someone over long-term.
The difference is that Punk continued to look super strong once he got through that Trips/Nash detour and back to the title scene.
Henry...was never shown to be able to handle Big Show.
Henry has lost a lot of steam since October, and some of it is injury and the focus on Bryan over him, but a lot of it is the fact that he can't beat Big Show now when back in July he dominated him.
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From: JaKyL25 | #445 And IMO that's a huge problem today when engaging the audience, especially casual viewers. If they're not buying into your main-eventers, they don't stick around.
And to go back to this point I was making, this is why it's AWESOME that Sheamus won the Rumble. Not having an angle has done him wonders, because he just keeps winning and winning consistently, and is entertaining in doing so, and that gets people over!
People genuinely get excited to see Sheamus, and now he'll be even more credible than before, even if his title match curtain-jerks WM.
I'm hoping that by Summerslam, we can count both Punk and Sheamus in that Cena/Orton tier of main-event-for-life.
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From: Wanglicious | #441 man, wwe is not thin at the top. they just half half a dozen guys from that level out on injury right now, which sucks for them. missing rey, christian, soon henry, del rio = painful.
And my argument is that all of those guys are main-eventers in name only, because someone HAS TO main-event by default. They don't have main-event credibility, and are only there because they have the MOST cred of the non-Cena/Orton people.
And IMO that's a huge problem today when engaging the audience, especially casual viewers. If they're not buying into your main-eventers, they don't stick around.
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From: edwardsdv | #434 Theyre the only people on the roster who were really built like this over a period of a few years and why I started to really believe in the Miz during the Rumble.
Well, aside from Cena and Orton.
And hey would you look at that, those are the two most over guys on the roster. What a co-incidence!
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: TheRock1525 | #430 Cody should win MitB. Seems like he could use a good ME push while dropping the IC title to someone along the way.
Disagree there. They've put so much effort into building Cody the right way. No shortcuts. Just main-event peeks here and there until after Summerslam. Then in fall he can go nuts and his floor will be so much higher than all these other one-and-done heels.
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Predict it now: What are the top matches at Extreme Rules at the end of April.
Punk (c) vs. Jericho vs. Cena?
Sheamus (c) vs. ???
I mean, after all the negatives we've been harping on, I feel like being positive, and saying that if they do things right, they've set themselves up for a strong summer.
"If WWE does things right" is always a big if though.
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Honestly it's kinda gotten so bad that even Cena is losing some main-event steam.
I mean, he was Super Cena all the way through June, but then look at what's happened since then:
Loses feud with Punk Loses feud with Del Rio Gets Rock Bottomed by Rock after they win their tag match Gets LEFT OFF OF A PPV Questions as to whether or not he can beat Kane
Not the strongest stretch for Cena.
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From: SmartMuffin | #383 They have PLENTY of guys who could main event. Now you're right that as of this exact moment, it's hard to see them as legitimate threats to Orton or Cena, but you can change that pretty quick by letting them beat Orton and Cena. The fact that they choose not to allow that is their own damn problem and has nothing to do with brand sep and cannot be taken to mean the roster is "too thin."
If it's thin at the elite level, it's because they've made it that way on purpose.
Well part of the issue here is that it takes a lot more than beating one or two guys. Miz beat Orton AND Cena during his reign, shadily yes, but still he BEAT them, and it didn't help him much.
Take CM Punk for example. He beat John Cena. Twice. That only STARTED his push though. Even now it's still tenuous. He needs to keep going over people like Jericho to really cement himself in that tier for good.
Yes, it is their fault, entirely, but the problem is that now they're stuck with it and how to fix it is not easy. They're on the right track with Punk, and eventually he can be used to help get more guys over along with Cena and Orton, and then those new guys can spread the main event bug around, and so on. It's viral in a way.
Oh, and IT WOULD HAVE HELPED IF TRIPLE H DIDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO BEAT PUNK IN A MEANINGLESS PPV MATCH WHEN HE HAD ALL THE MOMENTUM IN THE WORLD.
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Hell, I think they have an embarrassment of riches at this point. Maybe it's a little heavy at the VERY top, but come on, look at what we're looking at so far.
Punk/Jericho Sheamus/Somebody Rock/Cena Taker/HHH MITB Divas Orton/Wade
There's seven matches right there without even having to think about it. Then you've got upper-midcard guys with main event potential sitting out like Rey and Christian and ADR. What about Kane and Big Show? What about Mark Henry (assuming DB is keeping it to face Sheamus)? What about the Miz (MITB seems like a demotion for him)?
The roster is too thin at the top. Taker, Triple H, Rock, and Jericho are special attractions/short-termers.
Right now WWE is at a point where it DESPERATELY needs to make new stars, and having a brand sep only works to that effect if you have two rosters worth of established main-eventers to help get new guys over.
Right now there's Orton and Cena. That's it as far as the established guys go.
By keeping the brands split, with such a thin main-event group, you run into the problem of trying to somehow get people over as main-eventers without them ever having beaten main eventers, by hook or by crook even, to get where they are.
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From: SmartMuffin | #373 Also, I think Jak is selling Taker/Tista a little short. Match wasn't amazing, but it was okay given two big guys, and the feud was pretty excellent. It really felt like a main event level match even though it was the SD title.
It falls into that Taker/Edge category in that it still could have happened even if the Streak was dead.
It's not like had the Streak ended in 2005 that Taker would have retired immediately.
Now, I do think he would be retired NOW if he wasn't still clinging to it. But he still had a few years left in him back then.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: SmartMuffin | #368 Jakyl continues to think that brand sep actually matters!
Fortunately for everyone but him, WWE is thisclose to scrapping it for good and improving their product greatly as a result.
You don't remember my long spiel around Summerslam time about how Triple H taking over should have led to the end of the Brand Split at Night of Champions?
I do think it mattered, but right now the roster is too thin. Unify the brands.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: ExThaNemesis | #366 I don't think you can sell Punk vs. AmDrag as your Wrestlemania Main Event just yet. I mean we all know it's good enough to be the best of all time, but they need a few more years as established main eventers before you can turn that into your Austin/Rock I think.
Fun Fact: the only WMs ever with main events featuring ONLY guys who had never main-evented WM before are:
1 (by default) 4 11 (celebrity match) 19
It's really really REALLY rare to do something like that.
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I mean Taker/Shawn 1 and Taker/Shawn 2. You got something against the 2nd?
Taker/Edge was a fantastic match but the Streak was incidental to that. Taker was still a (relatively) full-timer at that point, that match could have still happened even if the Streak was long-forgotten.
The Streak was instrumental in the HBK vs. Taker matches.
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From: 14_and_counting | #352 To change this up, let's use Wade Barrett real quick. Would he get more over winning one of the Titles at WM, or breaking the friggin streak? This is not even up for debate. That is why the streak should close every year (unless Rock or Austin are there) because it is simply bigger than anything else in the company.
Yeah, because WWE made it that way.
A 19-0 unbeaten streak at WM is only a novelty UNLESS WWE tells you it's incredible.
And then it's also a self-fulfilling prophecy beyond a certain point. Randy Orton at WM21 is really the last honest chance the Streak had of being broken, because it was only 12-0 at the time, and it was a great spot to get a young star over.
Had the Streak ended there, it wouldn't be a problem today. Would we be robbed of a couple of the greatest matches in WWE history? Yes, but that's a small sacrifice to make in exchange for actually focusing on full-timers instead of the ever-fading Undertaker.
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From: SmartMuffin | #347 See, I'm still not entirely sure about this. Even given all the other crap, Taker, Rock, etc. WWE still seems to do a good job of treating its RAW title with a bit of respect. I feel like Punk/Jericho would go second to last at worst, and would be built as an epic feud. Furthermore, you'd have to assume that if Jericho won (which he should) it would lead to a return to a dominant main-event position for him. I'd settle for that, even if the show ends playing Rock's music instead.
Oddly enough, the last time a Raw guy won the Rumble AND went for the Raw title, it ended up being a midcard match (Cena vs. Orton vs. Trips) with the SD Title (Edge vs. Undertaker) main-eventing.
It's like WWE is determined to keep the Rumble winner in the midcard even if it's Cena on Raw.
Granted, Orton DID get the main event spot with Triple H when he won the Rumble a year later. And it bombed.
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Right. There's somewhat of a disconnect to see 30 guys fighting for a title shot one night, for one of them to win said title shot, and then on Raw the next night have the GM give the guy he eliminated a title shot first.
Just making the Rumble win into a midcard title shot at WM isn't a whole lot better than getting a title shot at any other PPV. If it really was the MAIN EVENT of Wrestlemania, that's different. We remember the closing moments of WM, etched in time far longer than most other moments.
Now, the "pick your title" aspect is still a big part of it, and really that has become the main draw of winning the Rumble these days (even though only TWO PEOPLE have ever crossed brands because of it, at least it opens some new doors).
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Part of the problem is Wrestlemania itself, not the Rumble.
ADR vs. Edge wouldn't BE curtain-jerking Wrestlemania if it wasn't for two guys who wrestled a combined 5 times last year taking up a spot higher on the card than them. Sheamus vs. WHC wouldn't BE the 4th-biggest match at WM if it wasn't for a bunch of guys who don't wrestle every week coming back on that one particular day.
WWE uses nostalgia acts/part-time acts as a crutch to sell WM, the one golden goose buyrate they consistently still get. It literally does 5x more buys than any other PPV, at $10 higher cost.
They've positioned the Streak as being more important than any title, and they've also positioned Rock descending from the heavens and being so generous as to grace the unwashed masses with a match as more important than any title. Those two things alone undercut the Rumble winner more than anything. Sure, if Jericho won the Rumble, the Rumble Winner match would be the 3rd biggest match instead of the 4th biggest, but lah dee dah big whoop. The same problem still exists.
Next year they're gonna have the exact same problem when Austin comes back for his "one more match" he's been saying he has left. If that happens, AND if Taker is still around going for 21-0, AND if Rock vs. Cena turns into the WM/Summerslam/WM trilogy that some dirt sheets have hinted at, whoever wins the Rumble next year is even more buried.
So the problem lies not with the booking of the Rumble winner itself, but rather with a deeper issue, mainly WWE's dependence on nostalgia, and their insistence that these guys who only show up to wrestle once a year are more important than the guys who have to carry the other 11 PPVs and 300 house shows.
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From: SmartMuffin | #333 Now, let’s look at the last three years. Let’s start with Edge. As someone who has previously been a credible main-eventer, and along with Randy Orton, someone who stands as the only legitimate threat to John Cena being perma-champ, this is setting up to be a re-affirmation. He returns from injury to eliminate the guy who insulted him while he was gone, transitioning into what should be a great feud. Looking good so far, but oh wait, it turns out the guy he is feuding with is on the B-Show, so now he gets to OPEN Wrestlemania in the third most important match. He goes on to keep feuding with Jericho for a bit, then returns to pretty much the exact same spot he was at when he left.
Edge vs. Jericho didn't open Wrestlemania. It was 7th out of 10 matches.
Still arguably the 4th-biggest match though, depending on your view of Bret vs. Vince.
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From: Lopen | #308 Really? That feud didn't really go anywhere. Throwaway addition basically. What was Storm doing at that time? Is his feud with Kurt just longer than Roode's with Hardy's or what?
Turning Point was: Roode vs. Styles Hardy vs. Jarrett Storm and Angle both out injured
Final Resolution was: Roode vs. Styles Hardy vs. Jarrett Storm vs. Angle
Genesis was: Roode vs. Hardy Storm vs. Angle AJ off the card. :-(
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From: Lopen | #299 Also the storyline would've worked pretty much seamlessly with AJ there, when you think about it. They were Fortune buddies at the time so you just have Roode turn on his Fortune friend rather than his tag team partner. Then have AJ feud with Kurt Angle a bit to help him out, and yeah it all works, without the sour taste of James Storm getting forced in.
Just run a quick 3-month booking for me of the four guys involved here starting from Angle (c) vs. Roode at BFG.
I want to make sure I understand what you're arguing.
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From: voltch | #296 I need to follow TNA again if Shelley is feuding with Aries.
Aries: "I've cleaned out this entire division!" Shelley: "You've never beaten me!" Aries: "Yes I have, months ago!" Shelley: "...yeah but those were triple threats. You've never PINNED me!" Writers: "Good enough for who it's for, FEUD ON."
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Storm had a pretty strong showing in the BFG Series. Not as strong as Roode, but he was beating guys like Bully Ray and Samoa Joe.
They even mentioned once how Roode had taken submission training during the series due to the point bonus for submissions. Maybe Storm did the same and improved as a wrestler!
EDIT: I guess I just don't see the issue with them saying "Hey, this guy is popular and good on the mic and decent in the ring, let's make him a main-eventer."
I mean yeah, was it a little rushed? Yes, and so was Roode's heel turn. That whole month was pretty crappy from a writing standpoint. The end results are good though, so that's what we're left with moving forward.
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Basically what I'm saying is that I think you're overblowing James Storm's gimmick. He's not out there rustling cattle or doing the two-step like Jimmy Wang Yang or anything. He's just a southern dude who hangs out in country & western bars. "Cowboy" is just his nickname, not occupation.
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From: Lopen | #280 Well to be fair that was a very different time and a very different organization. It doesn't work well in current WWE or current TNA.
How about a zombie cowboy, we got one of those now.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: Icon Classic | #276 I certainly wouldn't put their last match at nearly four stars! nearly three stars maybe.
I have to begrudgingly rate it at ***3/4 because for all their faults they just don't stop working. Aside from that one section where all the outside crap happened to give them rest, which is where they lost 1/4* from me.
It's actually in a sense kind of the polar opposite of Taker/Triple H. Those two put together a match built entirely on selling and slow-paced drama and pathos, just without a lot of actual work. The Wolves put together a match build entirely on meaningless non-stop action and blowing past any realistic emotions the match could have possibly evoked by passing up the logical finish of the match by 5 miles.
It's actually an interesting dichotomy. Which fatally flawed but well-intentioned match do you prefer?
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From: JaKyL25 | #022 But in all seriousness, let's look at what TNA is doing right these days:
--Building new main-event stars in Roode and Storm, and using established guys like Angle and Hardy to get them over. --Building to a big blowoff match between Roode and Storm 1-on-1, presumably at Lockdown. --Somehow building a solid tag team feud despite not having any actual tag teams. --Getting Aries over as a dominantly strong X-Division Champion, making his eventual dethroning all the more meaningful.
Although don't get me wrong, they still do some crummy stuff too:
--They still have no idea how to manage the TV Title and make it mean anything. --They're giving an awesomely constructed push to Garrett Bischoff of all people that someone else could have sorely used. --They're still doing non-finishes in PPV main events. It sucks when WWE does it and it sucks when TNA does it. People pay for an ending, or at least a huge turning point, not the setup for the next chapter.
Fair critiques?
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