Lurker > legendary_zell

HighSeraph posted...

Sounds like you're suggesting violence but're too cowardly to say it outright

It doesn't require violence. At least not violence for violence's sake. This could all be addressed with a week long general strike. What Texans need to do is to very loudly prepare the ground for that type of power. Republicans will surely respond to that with violence, but that's what they always do.

TC is right that voting is not going to be enough at this point and never was. Votes can be ignored or diluted, they're openly announcing their intent to do just that. They don't intend to let electoral democracy throw them out of power. So other types of democracy MUST be used to throw them out. Protests, strikes, boycotts, referendums, amendments, slow downs, occupations, picketing, media campaigns, you name it.

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

I never liked Clinton and I wanted Sanders to get the nomination, but we need to stop with the narrative in the OP. Clinton didn't lose the election, it was stolen from her. And I don't just mean "she won the popular vote" - Trump didn't legitimately win the electoral colleage, the GOP stole it for him with massive unconstitutional vote suppression. It was Bush in Florida in 2000 all over again, but on a much bigger scale across multiple states. And that's before you consider that there was probably Russian interference on Trump's behalf, equally illegal.

This may all be true, but she also did and didn't do enough to lose on her own. And there was already plenty of domestic discontent for Republicans and Russians to work with, that's what both Sanders and Trump relied on. I haven't seen any evidence that Russians changed the votes, only that they inflamed existing social divisions that weren't being addressed by the establishment of either party and Hilldawg represented that establishment more than anyone.

HOON posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b5baeae1.jpg

This one's great, lol.

It'd become Turbo Reddit, ruled by psychos and bots. Somehow even more than now.

She's the epitome and result of the most DNC brained Democrats. They think they can just serve up whatever slop they want and we'll have no choice but to go along because of how insane Republicans have gotten. There's no attempt to appeal, no attempt to persuade, no attempt to solve anyone's problems or validate their feelings. Just "come get your slop and if you don't fascism is YOUR fault!"

Seems like a forum post transmuted into a video essay. It's very current and at the same time very old school internet.

Heineken14 posted...

I don't know. Acknowledging yodas faults but that palpatine is infinitely worse and anyone siding with him or at best being ambivalent toward his winning is also evil is pretty spot on.

I don't disagree with you there. As long as you acknowledge that sticking with Yoda as he was would lead to that same outcome eventually and something different must be done at some point. And that Yoda could have done that something different, but refused or was incapable of doing so.

Heineken14 posted...

I prefer this one.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/03404928.jpg

It actually is a great analogy, but not for the reasons you're thinking. Palpatine was obviously to blame for fascism....for doing fascism. But Yoda held up a corrupt system, failed an entire generation of students by failing to recognize and meet their needs, and refused to react to the rise of fascism until it was too late. So yeah, not the comparison you wanna make.

EPR-radar posted...

That's why I say the only issue in US politics these days is the GOP menace. Until that is contained, no real progress is possible on any other issue.

Returning to the analogy of the car in the quoted tweet, a car that is being driven sometimes forward, sometimes backwards and often to silly destinations with pointless delays etc. is still better than driving the car into the cliff at max speed, but it can't be called a good option (even though this poor option is literally the best we have at the moment).

I agree with this post but I think it conflicts pretty heavily with your prior post saying the only thing you can really fault Biden for is Gaza. That's very much not the case, he has many many other flaws and has since day one. Still better than Trump in countless ways, but I'd say we have never deviated from the slide towards fascism even on Biden's best day because of the things he's been unwilling and unable to do.

None of them have any interest in going where we actually want or need to go. If you add the element of Godzilla (climate change, creeping fascism, degradation of democracy etc etc etc) chasing all potential drivers and all of them being far too slow, none of them seem great.

Companies don't want to provide a working long term product anymore. What they want is essentially a license to print money by charging rent. If they can reduce or eliminate the product and if they can charge you over and over for the same thing that used to be a one time purchase, that's better. If things can be made to constantly break down or be stripped down to the bare minimum so you have to purchase back basics, that's great too.

They realize that the people who have the real money mostly haven't gotten it by doing work. Actually competing in the marketplace by producing good products and services is messy, expensive, and uncertain. The truly wealthy got there a much easier way. They got it through owning things and owning rights that create money by existing. Land, royalties, stocks, etc. That's always how things were going to end up.

Always remember that this is mostly what the Court has always done. Brown v. Board and Obergefell/expansion of rights are the outliers that they point to when questioned and to keep the investment of liberals in the institution. Generally, they're restricting real democracy, labor rights, privileging property and capital, expanding the police and surveillance state, etc.

Biden Crime Family!

-Crissaegrim- posted...

This.

I cannot, by any stretch of my imagination believe that Labour will pursue policies anywhere near as daft and fucking hostile as some of the shit the Tories have been trying to pull.

Like the recent move to arrest and charge homeless people 2000 if they get caught being smelly. Insane policies from a completely out of touch and irresponsible government.

I could never vote for a party like that.

But if you simply refrain from doing the batshit stuff and don't fundamentally change/improve anything, you'll just be back in the same position at the next general when people turn on a do nothing Labour party. It's so predictable it's borderline guaranteed. And it'll be even worse next time after X years of additional conservative brain rot, economic decline, and left wing demobilization.

Doing nothing to fix the core problems you face with huge majorities discredits your party for at least a generation.

I'm sure calling people who are suffering stupid will be a great electoral strategy! I'm really glad elected Democrats and people responsible for campaigns don't listen to you. Even just insisting that things are actually great is a better strategy than accusing people of being manipulated by the media or imagining things.

Economic indicators that economists use to track success and politicians use to prove success do not indicate what people actually feel on the ground. People feel more and more desperate, their lives are not improving in line with the numbers and parroting the numbers back to them when they can't pay their rent comes across as callous and out of touch.

I want to have hope for y'all, but Starmer seems determined to trot out the Clinton/Blair playbook yet again in 2024. These types never seem to understand that yes it's ""popular"" at first. But when you don't solve any of the problems and continue the trends that created the problems, and you sell ordinary people/the working class/minorities out on your watch, that does permanent damage to the party, electoralism, and democracy.

WingsOfGood posted...

Who are these people? I assume you are not speaking for yourself cause you said you would vote Biden? Why are you the expert of how they think then?

Because a lot of my friends are those people. I just went to a party last weekend where half the people there got arrested at encampments. A lot of them are involved with groups like JVP or trying to get their unions to express solidarity with Palestine. Because I basically agree with them on everything, except the conclusion specifically related to Biden.

mybbqrules posted...

And as has been exhaustively pointed out time and TIME again, all of those things will absolutely continue under Trump, as well as 1) the situation in Gaza actively being made worse, and 2) All the added people in america who would suffer under him as well, mainly minorities, LGBTQ, women, and democrats.

If you want things to improve for America as well as abroad, there is literally only one choice for president this November, and it ain't Donald Trump.

I'm not disputing this. I'm simply advising people not to minimize the destruction that Biden himself has facilitated and I'm telling you that many people are not going to sign onto that because it's bad enough to disqualify him. Those people aren't voting for Trump. They're either not voting or voting third party.

You have to understand how these people actually think, not the strawman caricatures of naive leftists people have created in their minds. If you're actually trying to convince them, you have to demonstrate that you understand the evil currently being perpetrated and you have to explain how voting FOR Biden will make it stop.

Shadow_Don posted...

Yea I just dont care anymore about what you guys think about me. Zero fucks.

People not voting in November are slime.

If anyone is slime, I think it's the politicians who put people in positions where voting is evil no matter what deserve that label, not the people stuck in that situation. I'll just leave it at that.

Shadow_Don posted...

Yes. I understand that people are willing to let others suffer massively to protect their fee fees. Fuck them.

We're talking about complicity with genocide here, not fee fees. That's a disgusting minimization by you. But that minimization is necessary to the view you're advocating, so it's not surprising.

Most want less suffering, not more, but Biden and his most ardent supporters want us all to accept that's not even an option.

Shadow_Don posted...

No I'm just scared of the consequences of a trump presidency. Both for the people here and in Gaza. Its not super complicated.

Yes, that's obviously the consequence I'm referring to. Those consequences wouldn't change the reality of what Biden's doing and its moral implications though. Some people are not going to be able to sign on to genocide, no matter what. Understand that.

Shadow_Don posted...

I dont think it's a payop, I just think bibi is a huge fan of what you guys are doing.

I'm simply accurately stating what's going on. I don't think he's a fan of me accurately calling him a genocidal maniac who should be taken in chains before the Hague by the time I finish typing this. I have never told or suggested anyone not to vote for Biden. Anytime I've brought the subject up, I've reluctantly said to vote for him.

I think you and others deep down recognize that this is a truly evil thing Biden is doing and a fully valid reason not to vote for him, but you're scared of the consequences of admitting that and so you lash out.

Rexdragon125 posted...

TC abandoned thread I see. And the genocide joe bros are desperate to ignore that Trump's pretty much come out as a Nazi

https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1792927240776192035

Biden IS Genocide Joe. And Trump IS a Nazi. Who is ignoring anything?

divot1338 posted...

Im fairly sure this is the Israeli version of Russias 2016 election interference.

Have you guys stopped to think that it's Biden's actions and not some Israeli psyop...publicizing those actions? Maybe that's what's turning people off?

You guys are getting conspiracy brained just as much as MAGA people are, anytime people react in a way that doesn't involve reflexively voting for Democrats, you create some conspiracy theory to paper over genuine domestic divisions and different reactions to events based on different values.

Shadow_Don posted...

He is. Reagan would have US troops machinegunning kids in Gaza.

Granted. Now can we expect Biden to do anything good here? Is that too much to ask? Because Reagan would have had boots on the ground committing atrocities, but Biden IS supplying the bombs that are killing those same kids. You could argue that's less bad, but it's still deep into "awful" territory. Is it too much to expect to get out of that territory?

Shadow_Don posted...

0 chance Reagan does that if oct 7 happens and American hostages are taken. He'd have troops in Gaza on Oct 8. I dont know why people think this is a good point to bring up.

The point is the option is there for Biden. Biden is supposed to be better than Reagan. Or are we no longer allowed to expect actually good leadership from Democrats as long as Republicans are kicking puppies?

divot1338 posted...

Biden doesnt even have control of his own funding.

Even if this was true, there's still many other options listed in that post. And Biden as President and Commander in Chief has significant flexibility to delay or impound funding. He could have vetoed additional appropriations to Israel.

divot1338 posted...

No it wasnt. Biden is not in charge of Israel.

This is a teenager problem. Which is when you have a teenager who realizes they can ignore their parents as long as they also ignore all of the punishments.

Israel is a military outpost/client state of the US. We provide them with their international cover for getting away with being a rogue apartheid state. We provide them with a huge portion of their military funding. We have a history of checking them by threatening to pull that funding, even under Reagan. We have a long history of forcing other countries to do what we want them to do through diplomacy, sanctions, financial pressure, covert action, and military force. We haven't been shy about using that power in other instances. This stuff could not be happening if Biden turned the screws on. They can only act with such impunity with US backing.

Humble_Novice posted...

True, but are Americans really willing to give up what freedoms and liberties they have just to stick it to Biden out of spite?

Spite is not the same thing as disgust or shame. It's not about self sabotage or spite, it's about not being able to leave your house to go pull the lever to vote IN FAVOR of someone who facilitated what you just said is true. To not want to sign onto a historic crime and say "yeah, I voted in favor of the guy who helped cause that for domestic reasons." Even if those domestic reasons are completely valid.

It's causing genuine anguish for people to be asked to do that and even being asked to do that calls our whole "democracy" into question.

littlebro07 posted...

Option A: Conflict between Israel and Palestine keeps going with the potential for it to calm down some
Option B: Palestine gets wiped off the fucking map and life in the US gets worse for everyone who's not a white Christian male

Yeah, I'll vote for Biden.

It's been wiped off the map under Biden though. All the housing, schools, hospitals, infrastructure is gone. Israel has openly proclaimed that they'll never allow Palestinian sovereignty or freedom. They've openly stated that they want all Palestinians to no longer be there through "voluntary migration" or death. All of this under Biden.

You've gotta grapple with this reality to see why people are struggling with voting for Biden. Anything less is not going to get them back.

He'll be damned in history for this. All of American society will be, regardless of who wins because our democracy is so degraded that we're left with no anti-genocide option on the ballot. This election is genuinely sickening. There's only evil and more evil.

Capital always want to take more and more from you and have you thank them for the privilege.

I wish he'd commit to dropping a world record weight directly on both feet.

It depends on the circumstances where she got elected. Her being elected would happen only after either a significant leftward shift in the voting populace/voting rights reform OR a great depression like crisis. The first would likely allow her to maintain her current views. The second might even push her to the left, as happened with Lincoln and FDR.

A world historic crime. Shame on the whole world and especially Western businesses and governments for driving this forward,

Let's hope this is an unfortunate weather related incident and nothing more.

I mean if an indigenous person who had ancestors in this area said that to me, that would be fundamentally true.

We live in the land that was colonized, we benefit from it, we're all colonizers living on colonized land, and the people that used to populate the land are dead, displaced, disproportionately poor, or restricted to reservations.

I think some of you are being deliberately dismissive about it and limiting it to "well I didn't personally colonize."

Your response to this information can vary. From fighting for indigenous rights, to joining landback movements, to saying "we won, you lost, gg", but the reality is that if you're in the US, South Africa, New Zealand, or Australia, you're living in the aftermath of a successful settler colonial project.

And I'm saying this as a first generation immigrant from a non-imperial country.

Shadow_Don posted...

You can have progressive values and leanings and not be a progressive.

The clip I posted is him, in person, literally saying point blank that he isn't a progressive.

You can find everything he said about Israel as well.

Idk maybe do more research into your candidates next time. None of what he is doing now should be surprising unless you're a low info voter.

You're still going to double down after he broadcasted "I'm a progressive Democrat" to the whole world? He lied, he misrepresented himself. People wanted to believe positive things about him and he wanted to give them that impression.

These people that you're calling low info are the very ones trying to buy into the Democratic Party and electoral politics and looking for people that share their values. When the candidates lie and people like you insult them for believing them, you better not say a word when those same people get blackpilled and never vote for a Democrat again.

This is why "branding" yourself as a progressive isn't enough. We need to see commitment to a movement as a central part of your life. Show me your DSA membership, show me what workers you unionized, show me you getting arrested for civil disobedience, don't just say you're "progressive" because that word means everything and nothing at the same time and it's very easy to pretend and then go full Sinema.

Additionally, this is a great example of what happens when the sum total of politics is boiled down to "well this guy is better than this other awful guy, but we're still voting for awfulness." That's not politics, and if that is politics, people will simply stop caring.

Very chill, very normal.

I'd congratulate Joe Biden on his second term as President.

Rey imo, as much as I've always enjoyed him.

Always remember that some laws are inherently invalid and not worth using as toilet paper or worth the calories it took to type them. They should be actively disobeyed or at least ignored.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

What are you doing in the face of this danger you see from these polls

Irl, I'm doing what I can to push Biden to take more popular stances. I'm also trying to organize people to fight for democracy, which right now means voting for Biden, at least in swing states.

My theory is that Biden specifically has unique vulnerabilities and Trump has unique strengths.

The general Republican reputation is garbage thanks to Trump and getting rid of Roe. Everyone other than Trump himself is dragged down by it since they're less well known, don't have a cult or reality distortion field, and aren't running against the person in the Whitehouse.

Biden is being saddled with every negative thing that happens during his presidency, whether it's his fault or not. He's the main target of conservative media. He has the age issue. He's the current focus of anger from every wing of politics.

Meanwhile, Trump has a cult, conservative media, a reality distortion field, incredibly low expectations, 100 percent name recognition, and is not currently the President which allows people to delude themselves into thinking he'd represent a positive change. He also sells an idea of subjugating cultural enemies and restoring strength to the people susceptible to that scam.

The Presidential electorate is also different than special elections or even Congressional ones. More and different types of people vote. Trump got a record amount of votes in 2020 and more than 2016.

People have short memories. They have a hard time accurately assigning blame. Some have legitimate grievances. Some are fascists.

All of this is enough to explain why we shouldn't just dismiss polls.

One, I have no interest in Biden losing or Trump winning to prove some point about Bernie. That's absolute nonsense and not the lesson anyone would take from such an event.

Second, y'all better hope you're right because if you're not, you're going to be directly responsible for dismissing obvious warning signs. I recognize the danger we're all facing here and that's why I'd rather be safe than sorry.

These people are either straight up forgetting history or not living in reality. Biden was up pretty big the entire campaign cycle. People were excited about the prospect of a blue wave and then were terrified by how close it turned out to be and the surprisingly high Republican turnout.

If you have some principled reason why you think these specific polls are off or some scientifically backed indication that the entire concept of polling has died in all circumstances due to changes in technology/lifestyle, then say that.

luigi33 posted...

Explain

The industry has boiled down the voices, ranges, topics, melodies, chords etc that are the most reliably successful and just mix and match those. This is especially easy in the era of streaming, metrics, and analysis. It's just about producing the sounds that most reliably translate into money. That leads to a narrowing of the variety of types of artist that gets pushed.

But at the same time, tech and the decentralization/ability to self produce and self publish injects new blood so we can find cool, unique stuff if we really want to.

I've never understood this approach of just straight up dismissing polls and asserting that Biden is winning. Shouldn't we all be acting as if it's true and doing what we can to make Biden more popular/get out the vote/figure out what's going wrong?

People are gonna go full shocked Pikachu face if Trump does win by taking the EC as we ignored warnings until it was too late. I feel like this attitude didn't exist even in 2020 when Trump was the incumbent and Biden was leading in polls basically from day 1, sometimes with huge leads. As another poster said, this is coming across as the whole skewed polls thing that Republicans did the last several elections, asserting that polls are inaccurate and that there's a hidden majority on their side, with no evidence.