Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 349: Rudy Can't Fail

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Dancedreamer posted...

I do too! None of them should be illegal. Same goes for Prostitution. Decriminalize it all.

Heroin specifically is a huge public health risk. It goes beyond my body my choice.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Where I'm ok with it being criminal is when users do drugs and then commit actual crimes (same as with alcohol), like neglect, abuse, or operating a vehicle, and that's out of necessity of protecting others.

The drugs themselves will lead to those crimes anyway.

In no way should people be okay with heroin use.

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red13n posted...

going to guess you have 0 personal experience with this subject.

Multiple cousins, my son's birth mother, and my best friend's brother.

Each of them wants to get better.

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red13n posted...

My dad was a heroin addict dude.

Only way he got clean of heroin was literally being thrown in prison for a year. Yes, not every case, forcing a dude in rehab would have been potentially just as good. But these drugs destroy their desire for anything but those drugs. It doesn't matter where they are getting them from.

As someone who went to over 100 AA/NA meetings before my court case to show good faith, I think I have enough personal experience with addicts to know there is a sizable amount that want help. Your comment was just pure anecdotal based on your father's experience.

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I would criminalize selling and distribution, but not usage. I am definitely more in favor of options supporting treatment and recovery in those cases.

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TotallyNotMI posted...

Multiple cousins, my son's birth mother, and my best friend's brother.

Each of them wants to get better.

Ok lets put it to a question then out of curiosity? They are in a room with 2 doors. 1 door is help. 1 door is more heroin.

Which door do you think they walk through?

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red13n posted...

The drugs themselves will lead to those crimes anyway.

In no way should people be okay with heroin use.

I just don't see any evidence that criminalizing its use actually helps anyone. If people are going to do it they're going to do it, might as well make resources for help and treatment available with no risk or fear or reprisal.

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red13n posted...

I think I actually like the middle ground. Where technically it is "Criminal" but the penalty is forced time in rehab rather than jail. Its the punitive system that is the problem.

Rehab sometimes isn't the right place for an addict, as dumb as that sounds. While its purpose is to get people off, sometimes it is just connecting them with people who continue that way of life around them also. It's weird. I have a lot of thoughts on AA/NA and Rehab personally. Not all of it is good.

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Corrik7 posted...

As someone who went to over 100 AA/NA meetings before my court case to show good faith, I think I have enough personal experience with addicts to know there is a sizable amount that want help. Your comment was just pure anecdotal based on your father's experience.

A lot of people simply cannot get out from the weight of their addiction. It's a powerful thing. Plus the way society treats it makes it even harder for them to admit it or get help.

I don't doubt there are cases like red is referencing where people are just like "WEEEEE MORE DRUGS FOREVER" but a lot of them want to stop but can't.

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red13n posted...

Ok lets put it to a question then out of curiosity? They are in a room with 2 doors. 1 door is help. 1 door is more heroin.

Which door do you think they walk through?

Picking the heroin door doesn't mean they don't want help.

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red13n posted...

Ok lets put it to a question then out of curiosity? They are in a room with 2 doors. 1 door is help. 1 door is more heroin.

Which door do you think they walk through?

Probably the second because addiction is a fucking disease and putting it right there for them will always end badly.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

A lot of people simply cannot get out from the weight of their addiction. It's a powerful thing. Plus the way society treats it makes it even harder for them to admit it or get help.

I don't doubt there are cases like red is referencing where people are just like "WEEEEE MORE DRUGS FOREVER" but a lot of them want to stop but can't.

I watched a dude who seemed like such a nice kid sit there and cry in rehab because he was 4 months clean and his girlfriend and him fought, and she purposely left heroin in the house because she knew he was a recovering addict. He said how he sat there for 4 hours and just stared at it before succumbing and bawled his eyes out over the decision.

There are people who want help. There are people who are pieces of shit. And there are people who don't realize the circumstances of the actions going on.

There are a lot who want help though.

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TotallyNotMI posted...

Probably the second because addiction is a fucking disease and putting it right there for them will always end badly.

Yeah, thats what I thought. That aligns pretty well with my experience as well.

And again, I think the issue is less criminalization, I think its more a punitive situation. We shouldn't be throwing these people in jail. But we absolutely have to push them into the "help" door. Because if you keep the choice of heroin on the table they aren't going to take the help.

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Honestly, what you're saying to me is akin to "chemotherapy didn't work because that person didn't want their cancer cured". You can want to get over your drug addiction desperately and just not be able to because your body won't function.

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And then there are guys who went to Florida for Rehab and down there just talked about how when he was done that he was gonna get ripped nonstop for all the time he missed being there. Considered it a vacation. Actually met a girl there he brought back. She started stripping, and they were blitzed 90% of the time.

Like I said, rehab being the punishment doesn't really work. Because... rehab has to be a choice. Otherwise it spoils the atmosphere for everyone there.

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red13n posted...

Ok lets put it to a question then out of curiosity? They are in a room with 2 doors. 1 door is help. 1 door is more heroin.

Which door do you think they walk through?

It is not that simple. What does "help" look like? If the choice is between (1) a cure for the addiction and (2) more heroin, I think most people are going to choose (1).

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TotallyNotMI posted...

Honestly, what you're saying to me is akin to "chemotherapy didn't work because that person didn't want their cancer cured". You can want to get over your drug addiction desperately and just not be able to because your body won't function.

If you just leave the status quo they will never be able to get help though. There has to be some sort of system in place where we can push them into the help door.

And a system where we can seize those drugs from their possession. Just sending them home with the stash they hid from their family isn't going to help. Its why allowing them to possess the drugs(Which happens if you purely legalize possession) is not a solution either.

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red13n posted...

where we can push them into the help door.

You can't push someone into that door.

It's where your thinking fails.

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there's a thin line between usage and distribution that it unfortunately becomes really difficult to tell. if you're with a supply of 3-5 hits of whatever drug, technically that can be just for you or it can be for you and a friend or two. like yeah there's a certain point where obviously it's not for one person but there's a very, very wide grey area, including some that just goes "look i just bought my week's supply."

when you decriminalize usage you do decriminalize most low amounts of distribution as well where the only way to get caught selling is literally selling. the middle ground of keep it illegal but make punishment different manages to allow a second step to determine which of the two it is: someone who needs help or someone who needs to be in jail. or both.

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Corrik7 posted...

You can't push someone into that door.

uhh, yes, you can.

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Speaking of drug decriminalization...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZDkpWMMhDs

"The worst person you know just made a great point" Onion article strikes again.

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red13n posted...

uhh, yes, you can.

No, you literally cannot. It will fail the majority of the time.

The only way to get people through the help door and get actual help is to make the help door more attractive than the heroin door. So that they choose that door themselves.

For someone who acted condescending to someone else about addiction, you would learn a lot by going to actual rehab or observing actual rehab.

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And I'm not saying its a "one size fits all" approach.

But we need a system that helps as many people as we can. Again, I'm in agreement our prison system is barbaric, we shouldn't do that.

But just going "nope no drug problem we're all going to look the other way" isn't going to help most people either and will make situations worse.

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Corrik7 posted...

The only way to get people through the help door and get actual help is to make the help door more attractive than the heroin door.

Again, we need more than just rehab here. You need job training and placement and things like that. But doing nothing is not going to solve the problem.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Speaking of drug decriminalization...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZDkpWMMhDs

"The worst person you know just made a great point" Onion article strikes again.

I live in this man's district and hate him with a passion, but I have absolutely nothing negative to say about what he said here. He is 100% correct.

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Corrik7 posted...

Like I said, rehab being the punishment doesn't really work. Because... rehab has to be a choice. Otherwise it spoils the atmosphere for everyone there.

this is true as well. drugs have that split issue where to break addiction the person needs to be heavy handed about it with themselves but outsiders being heavy handed doesn't solve anything. don't know what goes on in this world but it basically seems like you need a firm answer and bottom - which government can do well - while also having a way to allow people to climb out - which government is not good at. i do remember there was a tactic of giving heroin addicts weed instead to just drag them out of the worse drug, don't know how effective that was/how much it advanced since weed was more illegal then than now. so there def needs to be a more tactical solution here, even if it means legalizing simpler drugs to counter more difficult ones like heroin and meth.

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Just stop using drugs 4Head Kappa
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Speaking of drug decriminalization...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZDkpWMMhDs

"The worst person you know just made a great point" Onion article strikes again.

...well shit, just answer my questions posted afterwards.
also
"...a blunting of this horrible scourge of opioid addiction and opioid abuse..."

very nice.

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Wanglicious posted...

this is true as well. drugs have that split issue where to break addiction the person needs to be heavy handed about it with themselves but outsiders being heavy handed doesn't solve anything. don't know what goes on in this world but it basically seems like you need a firm answer and bottom - which government can do well - while also having a way to allow people to climb out - which government is not good at. i do remember there was a tactic of giving heroin addicts weed instead to just drag them out of the worse drug, don't know how effective that was/how much it advanced since weed was more illegal then than now. so there def needs to be a more tactical solution here, even if it means legalizing simpler drugs to counter more difficult ones like heroin and meth.

Isnt this the entire logic behind treading heroin addiction with lower and lower doses of methodone? Addicts bodies cant handle a sudden lack of opioids without crashing
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Jakyl25 posted...

Heroin specifically is a huge public health risk. It goes beyond my body my choice.

In America maybe, but I'm still for decriminalizing everything and letting people make their own decisions. People will get it anyway.

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PostContestUlti posted...

In America maybe, but I'm still for decriminalizing everything and letting people make their own decisions. People will get it anyway.

Decriminalize it sure but it absolutely needs to be a controlled substance
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Alternatively give everyone a free lifetime supply of heroin and just let us loose
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Jakyl25 posted...

Isnt this the entire logic behind treading heroin addiction with lower and lower doses of methodone? Addicts bodies cant handle a sudden lack of opioids without crashing

Its supposed to work that way, but knowing someone who has been on a max dose for like years now... system is corrupt.

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Corrik7 posted...

Its supposed to work that way, but knowing someone who has been on a max dose for like years now... system is corrupt.

Man how the fuck does their doctor justify that
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Makes his job easier due to less checks and gives him more clients due to being "the doc with the good shit", I'd imagine.

Basically not enough oversight.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Man how the fuck does their doctor justify that

Any time you drop the dose just say you feel like using again or you relapsed or whatever to get them to raise it back up. I mean, I am sure the doctor isn't dumb and knows what is up though.

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106 House Rs are officially supporting the coup attempt

https://twitter.com/johnkruzel/status/1337135543373733889?s=21

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So basically half. That's not a good showing of support.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

106 House Rs are officially supporting the coup attempt

https://twitter.com/johnkruzel/status/1337135543373733889?s=21

It's not a coup, they're following the legal process.

And it'll be more interesting if they get a senator to support their objections. They need both a member of the House and a senator to make a valid objection on Jan. 6. Then Congress has to meet in its separate houses to consider the objections.

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I mean it's a lot of people to be advocating literally overturning a fucking election

None of these fuckers deserve to ever hold office ever again

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red sox 777 posted...

It's not a coup, they're following the legal process.

And it'll be more interesting if they get a senator to support their objections. They need both a member of the House and a senator to make a valid objection on Jan. 6. Then Congress has to meet in its separate houses to consider the objections.

They all know that the case is ridiculous, and are signing on for political reasons. None of this is being done in remotely good faith.

Okay fine maybe Louie Gohmert is enough of a dumbass to actually believe it

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Hoping all of these people suffer serious ramifications in their careers. If it's not a swing, then primary.

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Good thing this is not a petition.
Even those would be more effective.
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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Hoping all of these people suffer serious ramifications in their careers. If it's not a swing, then primary.

Primary? I'm sure their base will reward them for this.

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Yeah, they're literally doing this to avoid being primaried if anything.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

They all know that the case is ridiculous, and are signing on for political reasons. None of this is being done in remotely good faith.

Okay fine maybe Louie Gohmert is enough of a dumbass to actually believe it

That doesn't make it a coup. More of a protest.

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The term "autogolpe" may be applicable. Apparently it's the word for when a leader who was legitimately elected resorts to less legitimate means to remain in power. Now, asking the courts to overturn an election isn't necessarily illegitimate. But asking the courts to overturn an election, and telling the public that there was voter fraud, when you're unable to provide substantial evidence of such fraud to the courts... I'm not inclined to call that "legitimate".
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That's not a coup in the same way that shooting a gun you are pretty sure isn't loaded isn't murder.
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ultimately it's just them putting more pressure on the supreme court on something that has what, 18 or 19 states? a lot of it just boils down to 'they really want the supreme court to say something because deadline is in a few days.'

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People trying to frame this as anything but a bunch of spineless treasonous fucks bowing to Trump's whims are funny.