My problem with The Host isn't even what he is capable of doing. My problem is that frankly including a character in a contest where someone arguing for him can literally make up things about him as it goes because it's "author approved speculation" is dumb. Kanz, I'm not saying you are making things up as you go, but look at it from our point of view: the only things we know about The Host are the things you tell us and you tell us new things basically every post. Not only that, but anything you say overrides what we say since you have canonical authority. Where's the fun in that?
Now, do you see why people think The Host is a really dumb choice as a character? It makes the contest boring as hell. It was fun in his first fight with the surprise appearance by The Doctor with the Tardis, but then it got...dumb.
That has nothing to do with this fight in specific, but in the future, try to either not include fanfic characters or forbid the person who authored the character in question to argue in the topic itself. It makes the exercise pointless. In Umineko terms, you can basically use red and people arguing can use blue. Only you are not limited by absolutely anything, unlike the people who have to use red.
Overall, it's just...well neither character should be in the contest to be honest. But it makes the contest the opposite of fun. Please consider this as a suggestion for future contests.
From everything I have read during this contest, I liken the host to what DeadPool would be if he woke up tomorrow and all of a sudden was Omni everything.
The Host isn't a fanfic character. Unless you want to argue a work entirely unrelated to any work published through official channels is fanfic, but then all webcomics are fanfic and it gets uglier from there.
From: EmDubyaSee | #152 From everything I have read during this contest, I liken the host to what DeadPool would be if he woke up tomorrow and all of a sudden was Omni everything.
Err...sorta, actually. Not quite but it's an apt comparison, at least. Also if he didn't abuse his powers, which Deadpool would, but yeah.
When I say 'fanfic character' I mean 'character someone voting in the contest has creative control of.' Which really applies to both characters of this fight.
From: KanzarisKelshen | #149 The Audience is you and everybody else if that helps any.
The idea I'm getting at is whether the Host is linked to the audience of his origin, or whether he's forced to submit to any audience that ever sees him, even if it's from beyond the fourth wall and he has no knowledge of their existence
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Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
KanzarisKelshen posted... From: Panthera | #142 I'm disappointed that apparently the Host went out and lost and the question I asked in his prior matches about whether "the audience" is meant to be an actual entity in his origin story or not was never answered. The Audience is you and everybody else if that helps any.
From: Ed Bellis | #144 [quoted text]
Okay. So I'll go by what you just said then:
[quoted text]
This is an impossible character. Like, literally impossible. His appearance in MPFC is tantamount to saying that he can do anything and win any match if he feels like it. It entirely boils down to personality - or rather, people's interpretations of his personality. I am all about factoring personality into a match, but you also can't totally ignore powers - you need both. And the Host entirely operates on personality. He is, as you continuously keep reminding us, the strongest character in the entire contest, but he might lose if he feels like it. That kind of crap has no basis in MPFC. Even past troll MPFC characters have needed some semblance of arguments and sway to get going. All you have to do with the Host is go "the Host would do ____ because he thinks ____." That's it. It's awful. I didn't "forget about how he operates" - this is how he operates in the context of MPFC, and that's all I care about. Or maybe you didn't read. AGAIN.
This guy. The Host fights like this guy, for MPFC purposes. Think as if the opposing entrant was facing this guy. How is this so hard to understand?
If he fights like that, he always wins. He will always have the power to beat whoever he is facing. So, he only loses if we interpret him as wanting to job.
....
How is that any different from what Ed said?
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From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch
Like do you really not see the issue with someone being able to give out information that nobody else can possibly find out? If I wrote a web serial about a character called "The Michael Bay Man" who had complete control over explosions then came into the topic and started saying "also he can explode in the molecular level and through time" that would be...dumb.
In a match where one of the characters can be completely controlled by one of the voters, only the author's interpretation of the match really matters. Anything else gets overridden.
"I think this character would act this way." "No my character wouldn't do that so your vote is not valid."
Don't you...see the problem with that? It's not even a contest. It's just a guy voting for his own character over a lot of other characters.
This guy. The Host fights like this guy, for MPFC purposes. Think as if the opposing entrant was facing this guy. How is this so hard to understand?
Probably the part that says:
It is not known what the upper limits of his power were, or if they could generate an adaptation powerful enough to match cosmic menaces such as the Anti-Monitor, the Monarch, Imperiex, or Mordru. While Nemesis Kid could adapt to defeat robots, it was never shown if he could adapt to defeat passive barriers such as a prison cell, spaceships and vehicle-mounted weaponry firing upon him, or an opponent at anything other than a physical level (such as defeating them at chess or outhacking them on a computer).
Which is suspiciously absent from The Host, because that would be a rather large weakness!
Furthermore, from that article, it seems like Nemesis Kid would just gain the ability to cast counterspells or something against GANON, not use his omnipotence to find entertaining ways to dick around before ultimately winning or losing according to the desires of a third party. Really, The Host - as he has been portrayed in this contest - is about as different from the character described in that article as Samus Aran is from Sarda. There is no comparison to made here.
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"The courtroom is the garden of holy judgment. Those with lechery in their hearts should leave this sanctuary at once!" ~Franziska von Karma
Haguile posted... a character called "The Michael Bay Man" who had complete control over explosions
do want
--
From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch
From: Haguile | #158 Like do you really not see the issue with someone being able to give out information that nobody else can possibly find out? If I wrote a web serial about a character called "The Michael Bay Man" who had complete control over explosions then came into the topic and started saying "also he can explode in the molecular level and through time" that would be...dumb.
In a match where one of the characters can be completely controlled by one of the voters, only the author's interpretation of the match really matters. Anything else gets overridden.
"I think this character would act this way." "No my character wouldn't do that so your vote is not valid."
Don't you...see the problem with that? It's not even a contest. It's just a guy voting for his own character over a lot of other characters.
I do not vote in The Host's matches, and I posted CC so everybody could check what he does. So...what was your problem again?
From: Kenri | #159 This guy. The Host fights like this guy, for MPFC purposes. Think as if the opposing entrant was facing this guy. How is this so hard to understand?
Probably the part that says:
It is not known what the upper limits of his power were, or if they could generate an adaptation powerful enough to match cosmic menaces such as the Anti-Monitor, the Monarch, Imperiex, or Mordru. While Nemesis Kid could adapt to defeat robots, it was never shown if he could adapt to defeat passive barriers such as a prison cell, spaceships and vehicle-mounted weaponry firing upon him, or an opponent at anything other than a physical level (such as defeating them at chess or outhacking them on a computer).
Which is suspiciously absent from The Host, because that would be a rather large weakness!
Furthermore, from that article, it seems like Nemesis Kid would just gain the ability to cast counterspells or something against GANON, not use his omnipotence to find entertaining ways to dick around before ultimately winning or losing according to the desires of a third party. Really, The Host - as he has been portrayed in this contest - is about as different from the character described in that article as Samus Aran is from Sarda. There is no comparison to made here.
A weakness that is irrelevant in a brawl in neutral terrain.
From: KanzarisKelshen | Posted: 10/28/2011 6:31:13 PM | #163 I do not vote in The Host's matches, and I posted CC so everybody could check what he does. So...what was your problem again?
...You don't vote, but your arguments decide who is right and who is wrong. Because your arguments aren't arguments. They are facts. Facts you can create at will.
From: JeffreyRaze | #145 Hey Kanz, random question. Could Host destroy all of his infinite magnaverse in an instant? It not, around how many universes could he obliterate at once, if any?
I'm trying to figure out how he compares to my most powerful characters, not including Ultima.
--
MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below! http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn
From: Haguile | #164 ...You don't vote, but your arguments decide who is right and who is wrong. Because your arguments aren't arguments. They are facts. Facts you can create at will.
Which could be disregarded because mid-contest releases aren't used. So anything but interpretation on The Host's demonstrated abilities wouldn't count.
From: KanzarisKelshen | Posted: 10/28/2011 6:34:29 PM | #167 Which could be disregarded because mid-contest releases aren't used. So anything but interpretation on The Host's demonstrated abilities wouldn't count.
So what you are saying is that every time you post your interpretation of the host telling people their arguments wouldn't work, they are all free to say "you didn't include that on the writeup so your interpretation, even if true, doesn't mean a damn thing"?
From: Haguile | #168 So what you are saying is that every time you post your interpretation of the host telling people their arguments wouldn't work, they are all free to say "you didn't include that on the writeup so your interpretation, even if true, doesn't mean a damn thing"?
No, it means that if I start giving the Host new powers or a new personality you can call me out since even if I said it was canonical it couldn't be used.
A weakness that is irrelevant in a brawl in neutral terrain.
Can't beat cosmic menaces: Yuki Nagato, Mad Jim Jaspers, Time Trapper Prime Can't beat passive barriers: Highly intelligent fighters like Batman or Kurama can probably find a way to make use of this even on neutral terrain Can't beat machine-mounted weaponry: Samus, any mech pilot Can't beat multiple opponents: Red, any summoner, possibly any Bleach character (Zanpaktous being separate entities and all) Can't win at things other than fights: Probably doesn't come up, but I'm not ruling it out, given characters who have the ability to force others to play games. Dunno if MPFC has had any of those though.
To say nothing of the fact that he could become physically superior and still lose, for example against Little Mac, who is used to beating characters who exceed him in all parameters.
--
"The courtroom is the garden of holy judgment. Those with lechery in their hearts should leave this sanctuary at once!" ~Franziska von Karma
From: KanzarisKelshen | Posted: 10/28/2011 6:43:25 PM | #169 No, it means that if I start giving the Host new powers or a new personality you can call me out since even if I said it was canonical it couldn't be used.
Let me try to put it this way:
If I ask about how The Host would react in a scenario that canonical information of him thus far does not cover, and you say your interpretation says it would make him do X...I can go ahead and say that you are wrong about your own character?
Because let's establish what you said so far:
From: KanzarisKelshen | Posted: 10/28/2011 6:34:29 PM | #167 Which could be disregarded because mid-contest releases aren't used. So anything but interpretation on The Host's demonstrated abilities wouldn't count.
Nothing but what he did so far is valid.
This means that anything beyond what canonical text proves is not included in the context. Now, for example, not once did a three eyed monkey with a psp for a head scream at The Host. Therefore, this is not covered by The Host's canonical text and is just an interpretation.
Assuming it is just an interpretation, if I say he would turn around to look at the monkey and you say he would ignore him, then even though we know you are right we could due to the rules of the contest ignore what you are saying because it is just an interpretation, and if it were an actual fact it wouldn't matter for the purposes of the contest.
So basically, the only way to beat a character that someone has author status over is to ignore the purpose of the contest and vote for what they want to happen the most. Oh hey we are the audience, who knew? So meta.
In other words, every time you argue for him, we are free to ignore your arguments and merely say "I disagree with your interpretation" instead of " well you are the author so you gotta be right."
So an author character has only two paths to go down:
-->Author uses canon power to override everyone's arguments making the match pointless. -->People ignore the author despite knowing he's right, making the match pointless.
So yeah, I maintain author characters are a terrible idea. If you want to maintain characters like that, the author shouldn't be allowed even discuss the match because of those potential problems.
On the other hand, I'm sure GANON was designed with some set limits or something. Rather than being completely god-modded.
I nominate Perfect Ultima from Create A Character: The Rebirth, then.
Username: BrunomasterX
Name: Perfect Ultima
Gender: None/All
Race: None/All
Media appeared in: Crystalline Circles, all media in existance (technically)
Physical description: No appearance/Every appearance
Biography: No biography/every biography
Abilities: Every ability. Most notably it can permanently copy every ability and attribute of anything it can detect (which is everything) and add it to his own while discarding the weaknesses. Added to this, it can create perfect copies of himself, and then copy their power. it primarily exists outside of time, so this takes place constantly and instantaneously. Finally, because it exists outside of reality and existence itself, it is outside the realm of logic. Paradoxes are meaningless to it. It can create a rock so heavy it cannot lift it. It can then lift it without having failed the first task. It can destroy itself, and it cannot be destroyed by anything. Both statements are true. Basically, logic is its *****. What it can do can be summed up as anything that falls under this list.
1: Anything that is possible
2: Anything that is impossible
3: Anything that is neither possible or impossible
4: Anything that is both possible and impossible
5: Anything that somehow doesn't fall under any of the five points on this list
And yes, the paradox in the fifth point is well under its control.
Strengths: As it can copy its own power endlessly and instantly, it has an infinite amount of power that grows infinitely every zero seconds. As well, there are an infinite number of it. To attain a more perfect power, it has created and maintained every scenario. Any event, being, or anything is already in its created universe, and it has an infinite number of them all. In order to facilitate events requiring Perfect Ultima or Perfect Ultima like beings trying to destroy Perfect Ultima as a whole, there is an Ultima body called Ultima Omega that had slightly more power originally (though it has no origin) which allowed it to block the copy ability of the other Ultima bodies. Which of course makes it infinitely more powerful than the rest in the long run. Using this power, it can segregate these antagonistic Ultima bodies created to fill the archive, and keep them out of the rest of the archive. Although this creates yet more paradoxes, it has them well under control. Omnipotent beings are pathetic in the face of Perfect Ultima. Also, please note that everything in the archive is technically an Ultima body, and as such there isn't anything that isn't Ultima.
Weaknesses: None, as well as all of them. There are Ultima bodies a grasshopper could wreck. And there are an infinite number of grasshoppers destroying an infinite number of Ultimas in the archives of Perfect Ultima anyways.
Personality: None/All. Ultima Omega has no personality and merely facilitates the archives.
Famous Quotes: Think of any quote from anywhere. Ultima has said it, and was responsible for it in the first place.
From: XIII_rocks | #173 ...Yeah, I thought he was from some webcomic or something.
If KANZ wrote it then the whole contest is called massively into question imo. Especially if it's ongoing.
It isn't.
From: Ed Bellis | #172 Oh, are we playing the "did not read" card? Then I'll direct you to the Host's writeup at the beginning of this topic, in which it is stated that the Host is "omnipotent and omniscient, able to perceive everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen unless he intentionally restrains his sight, with no ill effects". I will then direct you to the Nemesis Kid link, in which it is never stated that Nemesis Kid has anything resembling that skillset and is instead a more specialized character who basically has "he'll find a way" as his canonical power. I will then point out that Nemesis Kid would not be a good MPFC entrant either because all of his arguments would be "he'd find a way." In essence, you're comparing a character who is explicitly stated to know everything and be able to do anything to one who just spontaneously generates one power per fight (that he doesn't even keep) and using that as rationale for why the Host is interesting. Nemesis Kid's arguments would all be the same thing (he'll find a way), and despite this, the Host's arguments are all somehow even worse. Did not read my ass.
Incidentally, I'll go a step beyond what Haguile is saying here. It's kind of weird for the author of a story to be arguing for his character, but I'll accept that - if you need to have "unofficial" characters in an MPFC, whatever, just don't have the author vote, that's fine. But you're the host of this contest. It creates all sorts of sticky questions about bias when you let a character that you've created in. Sure, you've provided links to the story in the past, but that doesn't matter - it's your character, and this is your contest. Don't you think that's a bit iffy?
The problem, Ed, is that in an actual fight The Host acts like Nemesis Kid except he generates a powersuite to deal with a foe instead of a single power. There's actually another character that does exactly this, too - my point is that you're focusing on the powers and not the characters for some reason, when it comes down to personalities to determine who wins in this sort of brawl.
If I ask about how The Host would react in a scenario that canonical information of him thus far does not cover, and you say your interpretation says it would make him do X...I can go ahead and say that you are wrong about your own character?
Because let's establish what you said so far:
[quoted text]
Nothing but what he did so far is valid.
This means that anything beyond what canonical text proves is not included in the context. Now, for example, not once did a three eyed monkey with a psp for a head scream at The Host. Therefore, this is not covered by The Host's canonical text and is just an interpretation.
Assuming it is just an interpretation, if I say he would turn around to look at the monkey and you say he would ignore him, then even though we know you are right we could due to the rules of the contest ignore what you are saying because it is just an interpretation, and if it were an actual fact it wouldn't matter for the purposes of the contest.
So basically, the only way to beat a character that someone has author status over is to ignore the purpose of the contest and vote for what they want to happen the most. Oh hey we are the audience, who knew? So meta.
In other words, every time you argue for him, we are free to ignore your arguments and merely say "I disagree with your interpretation" instead of " well you are the author so you gotta be right."
So an author character has only two paths to go down:
-->Author uses canon power to override everyone's arguments making the match pointless. -->People ignore the author despite knowing he's right, making the match pointless.
So yeah, I maintain author characters are a terrible idea. If you want to maintain characters like that, the author shouldn't be allowed even discuss the match because of those potential problems.
This is no different from ignoring the way a character would react if we were arguing the Power Rangers or whatever, though. This...is how MPFC debates have worked, since the dawn of time.
From: KanzarisKelshen | Posted: 10/28/2011 7:14:58 PM | #183 This is no different from ignoring the way a character would react if we were arguing the Power Rangers or whatever, though. This...is how MPFC debates have worked, since the dawn of time.
You don't think there's a difference between "I think a Power Rangers would react this way" and "I know this character wouldn't react this way but the rules allow me pretend I don't know"?
One is different points of view. The other would be outright manipulating the facts.
From: Haguile | #184 You don't think there's a difference between "I think a Power Rangers would react this way" and "I know this character wouldn't react this way but the rules allow me pretend I don't know"?
One is different points of view. The other would be outright manipulating the facts.
Let me do this for you:
This means that anything beyond what canonical episodes prove is not included in the context. Now, for example, not once did a three eyed monkey with a psp for a head scream at The Power Rangers. Therefore, this is not covered by The Power Ranger's canonical episodes and is just an interpretation.
"I think power rangers would react in way X." "I think power rangers would react in way Y." "Let's each vote based on our interpretations." "Okay."
The Host example:
"I think The Host would react in way X." "I know The Host would react in way Y." "I'm going to ignore that because I can. You are right, but I'll ignore it just because I can. It's not a matter of my interpretation of the facts, but I simply don't want that character to win." "Okay."
Host because I'm staying on this bandwagon and this contest is by far the biggest joke this series has ever had
Seriously, that's why I'm voting here.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
in any case, The Host is never shown to tank an attack on the level of the Elemental Sun of Nothing and it's not in his personality to neutralize him quickly enough to stop GANON from using it without playing around first
From: Ed Bellis | #189 You are not getting what I'm saying. I said earlier that you need a mixture of powers and personalities to have a good MPFC entrant. When you have characters and we don't know anything about their personalities, the matches are kinda weird. This has happened multiple times in the past, with silent protagonist characters, for instance. The Host has the opposite problem: he is all personality and no powers.
Think of it this way. There are three sets an MPFC character can have when it comes to debating and arguments: only powers, only personality, and a mixture of both. The first two don't lend themselves well to arguing: to complete the picture, you need a mixture of both. When you just have powers you get "GameFAQs ____" because the arguments disregard the personality. When you just have personality (and I'm pretty sure the Host might be the only character in MPFC history that this fits the bill for) you can't base the argument off of anything. And the Host explicitly can't be "just powers" (because then he'd win every match effortlessly, as you've said), nor can he be the combo of both (because how he reacts to each situation and thus the amount of power he uses is so up in the air). So we're left with basically nothing.
And again, comparing the Host to Nemesis Kid does nothing to help, since Nemesis Kid would also be terrible in this.
(As an aside, GANON might be the only character in MPFC history to fit into neither one of the power or personality categories.)
OK, yeah, if this is your argument I'm behind you on it. I'm just frustrated by people saying I am:
A) Lying or misleading them when it comes to The Host's personality, when I have posted excerpts, the whole story, and various examples to substantiate my points if anyone felt like verifying them.
B) Saying there is no argument at all to be made in matches that involve him.
That's all.
From: Haguile | #187 I don't think you get the point.
Power Rangers example:
"I think power rangers would react in way X." "I think power rangers would react in way Y." "Let's each vote based on our interpretations." "Okay."
The Host example:
"I think The Host would react in way X." "I know The Host would react in way Y." "I'm going to ignore that because I can. You are right, but I'll ignore it just because I can. It's not a matter of my interpretation of the facts, but I simply don't want that character to win." "Okay."
This assumes I know how The Host would react. Until I sit down to write him I honestly don't know because such a large part of his character involves mood swings, or changes in the way he approaches mortals. >_>
But being serious, that's the thing. I'm not giving a final say on anything when I argue for the Host. The only thing I do is speculate. My speculation has the advantage of accounting for all the known facts about The Host since I remember them, but that's it. It's not ironclad unless I say 'yeah, this in fact happened and here's how it went down' and post an excerpt. If someone reads through CC and finds my interpretation inconsistent he can (and in fact should) call me out on it.
Well, thing is, people generally assume that the author knows how the character is going to react >.> So...if you aren't willing to ban characters that members have authorship over, mind adding a disclaimer that the author does not have the final word on what they do plus the status on canonical acts and etc?
From: Haguile | #196 Well, thing is, people generally assume that the author knows how the character is going to react >.> So...if you aren't willing to ban characters that members have authorship over, mind adding a disclaimer that the author does not have the final word on what they do plus the status on canonical acts and etc?
I'll add a disclaimer that the author has final say on clarifying what actually happened in cases where passages are confusing. However, they can't force people to accept their interpretation of how a fight would go, as it is only speculation.