From: MajinZidane | #050 That's how I was seeing it if it were used during my game. It didn't end up mattering at all, but the MAFIA community deciding where we want it to or where we think it should resolve during the "NIGHT ACTIONS PRIORITY LIST" is something I wanted to talk about.
=)
I amended that!
Dancer isn't the highest, its just barely higher than any normal action
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
Yeah, the effect from a dance doesn't work immediately. Just like you can't use an invention the same night you're given one. The Kamaro mask was funny like that, technically it takes a minimum of three nights to come to fruition.
That's how it is now, Cokes, but I was hoping to get our brightest and best together to make some sort of decision on the matter. That way we can make fun of hosts for failing to abide by what we agree on (as long as it is what I am in favor of!)
On that note, I want to bring this up:
If you use the word "Assassin" anywhere in a player's role name and they target a player, somebody better die that night.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
#34 | _Regaro_ | Posted 12/13/2011 2:26:08 PM | message detail | quote Honestly, I think the best way to do it, if you want it for whatever reason, is to have it not take effect until the night after it's used <_<
This would be my preferred way of handling it.
Boko's suggestion of a day-dancer works too, except that I think confirmable + un-roleblockable is too good a combo in most situations.
-- You put your RESOLVE HAT back on, which conveniently is the same hat as your NORMAL HAT. {Drakeryn}
From: Meow1000 | #044 I'd say no. A 1-shot vig can't fire twice if danced. Like a roleblocker, you only get informed of it if it is relevant to you.
I'd say "Whatever action you use tomorrow night, you can use it twice", even if it's limited.
So if a Jack still had, say, a scan, he could scan twice. But if he used his Save already, he couldn't Scan and Save, nor could he use the save if he still had it.
From: Luis_Sera89 | #052 Yeah, the effect from a dance doesn't work immediately. Just like you can't use an invention the same night you're given one. The Kamaro mask was funny like that, technically it takes a minimum of three nights to come to fruition.
OMG, you're exactly who I wanted to chime in since the role that encouraged this discussion was directly stolen from your game! <3
I did not host the Kamaro Mask like that, though.
Kamaro's Mask - Allows the wearer to perform a dance for another player one night, granting it's audience another stocked usage of whatever night action they may have.
It doesn't specify that it gives them another stocked usage that night or the next night, so I decided to let it be that same night, hence this discussion!
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: _Regaro_ | #055 I'd say "Whatever action you use tomorrow night, you can use it twice", even if it's limited.
So if a Jack still had, say, a scan, he could scan twice. But if he used his Save already, he couldn't Scan and Save, nor could he use the save if he still had it.
Dancer allows its target to act twice regardless of the actions involved.
A jack would be the sole exception to the role, so I would still let it act twice if it wanted to.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
Assassins can be roleblocked IMO. An assassin shot bypasses all resistance, but if the assassin never gets the shot off in the first place, nobody dies.
(but this is an old debate and one that I think is fine to leave to host discretion)
-- You put your RESOLVE HAT back on, which conveniently is the same hat as your NORMAL HAT. {Drakeryn}
By the way we *do* need to eliminate most forms of "host discretion"
Then again I'm one of the few hosts who still refuses to end a game even at 50/50 if town still has a chance of winning.
(I'm the reason DQV Mafia didn't end at 5/10, because he consulted me about it and I told him not to end it if town still had a chance)
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: Gatarix | #054 Boko's suggestion of a day-dancer works too, except that I think confirmable + un-roleblockable is too good a combo in most situations.
Definitely agree here, but I figured it was a fun substitute for a role that is already so high variance that it was worth bringing up. I do not think that TOWN Night Dancer that effects a player in the same night as Danced should ever be in a game unless you have the phone numbers of every player in the game and trust them to be around during the entire night.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: Meow1000 | #057 Dancer allows its target to act twice regardless of the actions involved.
A jack would be the sole exception to the role, so I would still let it act twice if it wanted to.
The way I said that, the Jack would get to act twice, but it would have to use the same power for both actions.
It also covers things like 1-Shot Vigs you mentioned earlier. I'd let them shoot twice, as long as both shots were used the night after he was danced. No saving it for later, and if you only shoot once that night, the second one is lost.
And if a limited-use power is out entirely when danced, I wouldn't even bother telling him <_<
From: Meow1000 | #057 A jack would be the sole exception to the role, so I would still let it act twice if it wanted to.
yeah, Regaro meant shouldn't act twice and use an action the Jack no longer had access to as the second action. Just because you got a belly dance at night doesn't mean you can SAVE LIVES again, Jack. You are out of bandages and this man is going to die.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: MajinZidane | #062 yeah, Regaro meant shouldn't act twice and use an action the Jack no longer had access to as the second action. Just because you got a belly dance at night doesn't mean you can SAVE LIVES again, Jack. You are out of bandages and this man is going to die.
Kind of.
I'm sayin' the Jack should have to use the same power for both actions. No Save + Kill, even if he has both remaining
From: Gatarix | #058 Assassins can be roleblocked IMO. An assassin shot bypasses all resistance, but if the assassin never gets the shot off in the first place, nobody dies.
(but this is an old debate and one that I think is fine to leave to host discretion)
"Scum Assassin" is unblockable
If there's one that's debatable in whether it can be blocked or not its "Strongman".
If you want a blockable scum extra kill, name it something else.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
It doesn't specify that it gives them another stocked usage that night or the next night, so I decided to let it be that same night, hence this discussion!
The person you handed the mask to was told how it worked. I remember Chris getting the benefit from it in Zelda mafia, who was Teleporter (renamed bus driver). As it happened, since TP was a limited use role, he gained another stock of it, but someone like Cop or Doctor would have been able to use 2 actions in one night. He never got to use it though since he bussed a vig shot into himself the same night.
From: MajinZidane | #062 yeah, Regaro meant shouldn't act twice and use an action the Jack no longer had access to as the second action. Just because you got a belly dance at night doesn't mean you can SAVE LIVES again, Jack. You are out of bandages and this man is going to die.
Does Dancer specifically let its target act twice, or does it let its target duplicate an identical action?
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: Meow1000 | #059 By the way we *do* need to eliminate most forms of "host discretion"
Completely agree here!
Drakeryn and I already have two dramatically different hosting discretion decisions on this very page!
also,
Then again I'm one of the few hosts who still refuses to end a game even at 50/50 if town still has a chance of winning.
I'm totally with you here. I usually send scum the "You win when all threats to MAFIA are eliminated." Just because you now control an even number of players to the TOWN doesn't mean all threats to you are eliminated; when there are four of your team and four of my time and I am a vigilante, you are free to say that to me but that isn't going to make me just give up and not shoot you in the head.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: Luis_Sera89 | #065 It doesn't specify that it gives them another stocked usage that night or the next night, so I decided to let it be that same night, hence this discussion!
The person you handed the mask to was told how it worked. I remember Chris getting the benefit from it in Zelda mafia, who was Teleporter (renamed bus driver). As it happened, since TP was a limited use role, he gained another stock of it, but someone like Cop or Doctor would have been able to use 2 actions in one night. He never got to use it though since he bussed a vig shot into himself the same night.
Nice one Chris.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: _Regaro_ | #069 Isn't that the nature of the debate, when it comes to limited use/multiple-power roles?
(I'm firmly in the latter camp)
Not the debate in that regard.
Someone with only 1 action can't double their action.
The debate is whether or not a jack can use two separate actions or not, and that's the only time where the difference in wording means anything.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
Drakeryn and I already have two dramatically different hosting discretion decisions on this very page!
also, [quoted text]
I'm totally with you here. I usually send scum the "You win when all threats to MAFIA are eliminated." Just because you now control an even number of players to the TOWN doesn't mean all threats to you are eliminated; when there are four of your team and four of my time and I am a vigilante, you are free to say that to me but that isn't going to make me just give up and not shoot you in the head.
In DQV town technically had the ability to kill us twice at night in 5/10, though we were mass-roleblocking their vig and never going to stop
Mimic copied my assassin shot!
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
Jacks are basically the only multi-use role that are immune to dancers, then?
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
I want to disagree here as long as both the normal action and the danced one are used on the same night <_<
[quoted text]
Nope
A vig with one bullet does not have a second bullet to shoot, ever, unless he's given a kill by someone else.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: Meow1000 | #066 Does Dancer specifically let its target act twice, or does it let its target duplicate an identical action?
I viewed it as letting its target act twice in the same night, but for the most part that is the same thing as duplicating an identical action with the exception of Jacks of all trades and other limited use night powers.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: MajinZidane | #076 I viewed it as letting its target act twice in the same night, but for the most part that is the same thing as duplicating an identical action with the exception of Jacks of all trades and other limited use night powers.
To me Jack is the only debatable thing here, since Jacks are the only role with multiple 1-use actions, with the semi-exception of a gift-giver handing something like a cop an action to give it an unlimited use and a 1 use action at the same time.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: Gatarix | #078 "Scum Assassin" is unblockable
If there's one that's debatable in whether it can be blocked or not its "Strongman".
Strongman is the same thing as Assassin, and both can be roleblocked.
Strongman isn't an extra kill.
There have been so many roles used for "Unblockable non-extra kill" though that its ridiculous.
Admittedly I renamed it too in TMNT
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: MajinZidane | #079 The way I'd host Dancer, it'd let the target "act twice" in a night.
That eliminates any single action roles (1 shot vig, mostly) from getting to use two actions out of their single action.
Going by that, a Jack of all Trades with two different limited abilities still available would be able to use both in the same night if he chose to.
That's the way I see it.
Dancer doesn't make you use the same action twice, it just lets you act twice.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: Meow1000 | #077 To me Jack is the only debatable thing here, since Jacks are the only role with multiple 1-use actions, with the semi-exception of a gift-giver handing something like a cop an action to give it an unlimited use and a 1 use action at the same time.
Having just hosted a game with both of these roles, I told Justin Crossing that if he were targeted by the Kamaro Mask, then he'd be able to give out two masks the night he was danced as opposed to just one, but this isn't really too different than any role gaining the ability to act again or gain a duplicate identical action via Dancer.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
Everything in a game of mafia is technically up to the host's discretion, but the reason for discussing this is so we as a community can learn what seems most fair and fun for everyone so we can all adopt a common way to host games and eliminate "discretion" from the game, as to streamline the game. We've been doing this long enough and have enough people extremely knowledgeable on this game and how it works to make informed decisions on this matter.
Here's a fun thing to throw out there. Cop targets Player A Bus Driver targets Player A and Player B
Your preferred Cop resolution message: "TOWN/SCUM." or "Player B is TOWN/SCUM."
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: MajinZidane | #083 Having just hosted a game with both of these roles, I told Justin Crossing that if he were targeted by the Kamaro Mask, then he'd be able to give out two masks the night he was danced as opposed to just one, but this isn't really too different than any role gaining the ability to act again or gain a duplicate identical action via Dancer.
Actually yeah Gift Giver's rare but it falls into the exact same vein
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: MajinZidane | #085 Everything in a game of mafia is technically up to the host's discretion, but the reason for discussing this is so we as a community can learn what seems most fair and fun for everyone so we can all adopt a common way to host games and eliminate "discretion" from the game, as to streamline the game. We've been doing this long enough and have enough people extremely knowledgeable on this game and how it works to make informed decisions on this matter.
Here's a fun thing to throw out there. Cop targets Player A Bus Driver targets Player A and Player B
Your preferred Cop resolution message: "TOWN/SCUM." or "Player B is TOWN/SCUM."
This was settled over a year ago.
Scanners are always told the identity of who they scanned. This isn't a debate and hasn't been for a long time.
Buses are weakened to a nearly crippling degree if you don't.
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: Gatarix | #087 I'm pretty sure I've seen strongman used as an extra kill, but if it's more commonly used as replacing the regular kill, then okay.
and that's another thing, all of us adopting the same terminology can eliminate this sort of confusion when playing mafia and when talking about mafia amongst ourselves.
If a new host came in and hosted a game, and used this role "TOWN Detective: Once per night, you may target another player in the game. You are told if that player is TOWN or SCUM" then what would you think?
It'd confuse the player with that role, and it would confuse the hell out of the game when the role was listed on the dead players list.
Strongman vs. Assassin is a less extreme example of the same thing.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: _Regaro_ | #089 Anybody who doesn't do the latter should be shot.
What Reg said
The only exception I can think of is it intentionally make a ****ed up scum role that would be way too strong with any more than 1 action.
I had something else to say but I seem to have forgotten it
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: MajinZidane | #090 and that's another thing, all of us adopting the same terminology can eliminate this sort of confusion when playing mafia and when talking about mafia amongst ourselves.
If a new host came in and hosted a game, and used this role "TOWN Detective: Once per night, you may target another player in the game. You are told if that player is TOWN or SCUM" then what would you think?
It'd confuse the player with that role, and it would confuse the hell out of the game when the role was listed on the dead players list.
Strongman vs. Assassin is a less extreme example of the same thing.
I'd like to think that somebody hosting would have hung around here long enough and had enough of a grasp of how we handle the game of mafia to know the terminology and be smart enough to use it <_<
From: Meow1000 | #088 Scanners are always told the identity of who they scanned. This isn't a debate and hasn't been for a long time.
Buses are weakened to a nearly crippling degree if you don't.
I know this isn't up for debate, and I would certainly do this the same exact way, but that doesn't mean that all potential hosts know to do it that way.
Also, because we all agree to host Bus Drivers that way, I think that it is acceptable for us all to agree to slightly changing our hosting to incorporate this.
When a Cop receives his scan, always tell him "Player X is TOWN/SCUM." The reason I brought that up was to prove a point - I am lazy sometimes and just tell scanners their action without thinking to tell them who they are targeting because they already know that, but doing that is essentially telling the scanner that Bus Driver doesn't exist in the game.
Continuing off of that line of thought, if a Cop receives a message that "Player X is TOWN/SCUM" he or she might be inclined to think that even though that was the player they targeted, the fact that they received the scan in this peculiar way might mean that there is a bus driver in this game because the last three times this player was Cop, he or she received just "TOWN/SCUM" as the scan result.
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
From: MajinZidane | #090 and that's another thing, all of us adopting the same terminology can eliminate this sort of confusion when playing mafia and when talking about mafia amongst ourselves.
If a new host came in and hosted a game, and used this role "TOWN Detective: Once per night, you may target another player in the game. You are told if that player is TOWN or SCUM" then what would you think?
It'd confuse the player with that role, and it would confuse the hell out of the game when the role was listed on the dead players list.
Strongman vs. Assassin is a less extreme example of the same thing.
Host must use proper care when renaming roles.
Renamed roles are usually alright as long as they aren't the same name as other actually established roles.
I used two renamed roles in TMNT. One was the Cop, actually. "Town Scientist"
Though he was the most "OP" cop ever in that if he scanned scum he also RB'd whoever he scanned (He could NOT target the same person twice). Scum had 3 ways of disabling him (MRB, Jack who could theoretically RB twice, and unblockable kill). Actually you could say four if you count the Godfather who couldn't be scanned scum OR roleblocked. There were 5 scum total.
They wasted their unblockable on a spent mayor night 1, their RB died pretty fast, and they wasted their ability to have their jack RB twice, though.
They were really good!
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
From: MajinZidane | #094 Continuing off of that line of thought, if a Cop receives a message that "Player X is TOWN/SCUM" he or she might be inclined to think that even though that was the player they targeted, the fact that they received the scan in this peculiar way might mean that there is a bus driver in this game because the last three times this player was Cop, he or she received just "TOWN/SCUM" as the scan result.
If he wants to meta that, it's his business.
There's a reason every single ruleset we use discourages meta <_,
From: _Regaro_ | #092 I'd like to think that somebody hosting would have hung around here long enough and had enough of a grasp of how we handle the game of mafia to know the terminology and be smart enough to use it <_<
Drakeryn is one of the most respected players in our community, and admitted to not knowing the difference between Strongman and Assassin (because he had seen both used both ways in the past).
-- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to help people."
By the way has there even been a worse use of an unblockable kill than using it on a spent mayor Spiral night 1?
--
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.