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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 8:43:00 AM #1: |
it's kind of amazing how much more flawed skyward sword is than WW and TP and yet it's still a vastly superior game, I don't think I've seen something like this in any other series where the more finely tuned games are actually subpar compared to the extremely extremely unpolished
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nintendogirl1 01/15/12 8:43:00 AM #2: |
u trollin
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 8:52:00 AM #3: |
I'm aware that saying anything negative about WW is always going to be taken as a horrible offense by someone but I assure you these are my honest unsensationalized thoughts, I find the game unremarkable with the exception of its ending which is all kinds of great. last impressions count for a lot with most people but looking at the whole package I don't think that game stands up. SS is a weird case because I've certainly hated games for far less egregious issues than the ones it has and yet I still love it, it's a gem that has a lot of dirt and scratches on it, but it's still a gem, it shows how important the conception of a game is vs the fine tuning, a blemished gem is still better than a dressed up turd
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tereziWright 01/15/12 9:04:00 AM #4: |
WW best Zelda
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Kotetsu534 01/15/12 9:05:00 AM #5: |
Eh, I think TP is much better than SS. The best parts of SS are the dungeons, but the TP ones are, collectively, a tier above. The world is much better, both in terms of atmosphere and cohesiveness. SS does start and end better. Midna brings so much more than Fi it's hard to believe. There are silly irritancies in both games, but more in SS.
I'd concede that TP isn't the most creative game in the world - it's not known pejoratively as OoT 2.0 for nothing. But, motion controls apart (which are decidely varying in quality, and not always better than what was shoehorned into TP), SS doesn't do much that's new either. Segmenting the world into three areas is, I'd argue, a step back. The sky is an ingenious idea, but they never went anywhere with it - it feels as barren as Hyrule Field in OoT. SS brings the beetle, which is a great idea and implemented extremely well, but it aside, none of the items fundamentally change their games. Mind you, I'm a much bigger fan of TP than most and not really a Zelda fanatic, so I'm a bit of an outlier. Edit: I will make no effort to defend The Wind Waker. -- Who knew the Rivalry Rumble would be so predictable? SuperNiceDog, that's who. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Senjougaharaism 01/15/12 9:15:00 AM #6: |
they had some cool ideas with WW but the execution wasn't that great
TP being the creative bottom of the series sounds right to me -- DON~! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 9:15:00 AM #7: |
Eh, I think TP is much better than SS. The best parts of SS are the dungeons, but the TP ones are, collectively, a tier above. The world is much better, both in terms of atmosphere and cohesiveness. SS does start and end better. Midna brings so much more than Fi it's hard to believe. There are silly irritancies in both games, but more in SS.
basically you're my stellar opposite on this with the exception of midna, midna is definitely the best thing about TP and probably the biggest reason I put that game above WW too. still have to give dungeons and world atmosphere/design to SS, TP is more cohesive because SS is literally level based, but I find the aesthetics and individual level design much better. I'd concede that TP isn't the most creative game in the world - it's not known pejoratively as OoT 2.0 for nothing in addition to this it's a repository for scrapped FSA ideas and borrows a fair amount from SotC, it's more of a collage than an original piece SS doesn't do much that's new either it doesn't completely reinvent the wheel but I would definitely argue that it does more than any game since MM did ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/15/12 9:24:00 AM #8: |
From: Kotetsu534 | #004 Are you talking about TP here? Because having an empty main field that you never touch because you can teleport anywhere you want is the opposite of atmospheric and cohesive. The sky area in SS was definitely annoying to fly through, but it served exactly the same purpose Hyrule Field did in OoT. It connects the world, and the boring waste-of-time straight-line trek to your destination actually makes the game feel more epic and vast. SS doesn't do much that's new either Now you've just got to be trolling. If there's one thing you should admit, objectively, it's that SS is more unique than TP. If you completely skipped playing TP, what have you missed from the Zelda series?... nothing. If you can think of anything TP does that a previous Zelda doesn't do better, let me know. -- _foolmo_ 'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 9:28:00 AM #9: |
If you completely skipped playing TP, what have you missed from the Zelda series?... nothing. If you can think of anything TP does that a previous Zelda doesn't do better, let me know.
I wouldn't even be this harsh. TP is unique in the zelda series in that it actually has a good main character and solves the problem of having a deep character with progression while also having a silent protagonist avatar. I do think TP was disappointing on the whole but midna is still one of the major accomplishments of the series. the problem is that pretty much all the good characterization went into midna and we got a world full of people we couldn't care less about, malo and telma being the only other real standouts. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Mega Mana 01/15/12 9:30:00 AM #10: |
Let's not forget that Hyrule Field was at least fun to explore. Who knows what lay hidden from holes in the ground, Big Poes, routes to avoid those damn Peahats. Skyward Sword was fun to explore once until you learned that every landable island is either a mini-game or a treasure chest, and every other thing in the sky is a floating rock or a floating rock with Octoroks that will never bother you. Hell, I was pumped for the hidden lands in that corner of the sky, but it's even more boring that what's outside.
And yet, it still beats TP. Somehow Wind Waker... better overworld despite the sailing. -- "Oh my God MWIS. I just really want to ask, if this is a SMALL CYOA.... what in the name of holy blue christ is a big one?!" - ExTha ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 9:34:00 AM #11: |
the sky is definitely a bit of a disappointment, with a bit more effort it could have been amazing. I don't hate it or anything but it could have been more, I love the atmosphere on the sky islands, it'd be nice if there was more to do there than find the chests after unlocking them on the surface
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HanOfTheNekos 01/15/12 9:46:00 AM #12: |
OoT Hyrule Field has the best music in any Zelda game. So don't be putting it down.
-- i am the acid eating away at the fabric of justice - Ed Bellis best [poelkemon ids nifdorino - Timjab ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 9:48:00 AM #13: |
for main field/overworld music I'm inclined to agree, TP actually would come close but they went really overboard with the context sensitive MIDI use where you barely ever actually hear it in it's complete form
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 10:02:00 AM #14: |
The sky is only disappointing if you compare it to the others, which it really isn't supposed to be. It's not supposed to be that kind of overworld, it's supposed to be a small area with lots of hidden extras, which is exactly what it is.
Anyway, the creative rock bottom was clearly the NES era, just so you know. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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PartOfYourWorld 01/15/12 10:04:00 AM #15: |
For the love of god, make one topic - ONE GOD DAMN TOPIC - where you write three solid paragraphs about how NOT awful something is. PLEASE.
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JaKyL25 01/15/12 10:06:00 AM #16: |
From: Lightning Strikes | #014 What the hell? I mean, even if you're one of the people that has the opinion that the games don't hold up today, how can you deny that they were incredibly creative? -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 10:06:00 AM #17: |
where you write three solid paragraphs about how NOT awful something is.
this was really intended to be more of praise for SS than a shot at WW and TP but it came off as the latter, I may actually be incapable of doing this... ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kotetsu534 01/15/12 10:10:00 AM #18: |
I'm not trolling. I acknowledge SS has heavily integrated motion controls, the beetle and the sky. The beetle is excellent - no dispute, but TP brought new items too. The sky has amazing potential, but serves as a mere hub world in execution. The motion controls... well, they're debated. For some, they add a massive amount to the game and make it totally unique. For many, the sword controls are excellent and the rest... not so much. For some, they ruin the game. I'm in the middle group.
My argument is this: (1) The only console Zelda that's been fundamentally new in structure since OoT defined the 3D action adventure is MM. (2) SS is as bad as TP in terms of bringing and executing properly exciting new ideas. (3) TP was amazing, give or take a poor start and weak ending. [Therefore TP should be at least as respected as SS.] -- Who knew the Rivalry Rumble would be so predictable? SuperNiceDog, that's who. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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tazzyboyishere 01/15/12 10:11:00 AM #19: |
TWW, SS, TP
Top 3 Zeldas. -- I sold my sig for gas money. SuperNiceDog just kicked my ass. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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tazzyboyishere 01/15/12 10:12:00 AM #20: |
From: Liquid Wind | #017 You're really bad at showing your true intentions. -- I sold my sig for gas money. SuperNiceDog just kicked my ass. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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swirIdude 01/15/12 10:14:00 AM #21: |
Ulti, stop trolling with alts.
-- "The people who play Final Fantasy 7 actually have lives and dont NEED polls" ~MajinUltima SuperNiceDog: Bracket: Good, Taste: Bad ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 10:54:00 AM #22: |
From: JaKyL25 | #056 Because they weren't really, despite being first. Sure, they laid down the very basics for the games. But that's all they did. There is no creativity at all in their game design beyond the core mechanics themselves, and even those weren't far removed from other games already existing at the time. Also Liquid Wind, if that was your intention, maybe you shouldn't have made the title of the topic an insult towards the 'cube Zeldas, among other things. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/15/12 11:58:00 AM #23: |
From: Kotetsu534 | #018 Those aren't even the new things. Motion controls are cool but simple, beetle is cool but also relatively minor, and the sky was just the Windwaker sea again. I'm talking about the actual CORE changes to the game. The linear "setpiece" style overworld adventuring. The repeating trips to same lands. The sidequest system. The resource collecting and item upgrading and inventory management. There's a lot of western RPG and action game influence that you wouldn't expect in a Zelda. Even the limited sprinting system. -- _foolmo_ 'It's easy to get yourself in trouble if you start quoting people who don't like you in your signature' - Mods ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/15/12 12:32:00 PM #24: |
From: Lightning Strikes | #022 Yep, because that's incredibly easy to do and totally uncreative. Donkey Kong is such an uncreative game too. And Zelda II, what a completely uncreative follow-up to the original LoZ. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OmarsComin 01/15/12 12:40:00 PM #25: |
I haven't liked the series since OoT so you can trust me when I say SS is objectively better and more interesting than TP
not as charming as WW of course but that game was dragged down by the triforce hunting and some other stuff ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZFS 01/15/12 12:42:00 PM #26: |
WWhad a lot of creativity through its visual design, and made a nice step forward for 3D Zelda combat, but it was rather lacking in the dungeon design. The Triforce Quest was a disaster of an idea, too. It's still a very enjoyable game, though, with one of the better stories in the series. TWW and TP are close -- both flawed, but not entirely bankrupt -- but between the two, TP definitely suffers a bit more from feeling derivative.
Edit -- Also, SS is better than both, from what I've played, I would agree, but I wouldn't call it a more 'flawed' or 'unpolished.' There are some nagging issues, and some things could have been improved, but the entire package is better than any Zelda since OoT. Really great game. -- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 1:24:00 PM #27: |
From: JaKyL25 | #104 It's not like very similar games hadn't been made before. LoZ is effectively just Adventure on a much bigger scale with more stuff. So no, it's not especially creative at all, considering they didn't add anything especially new or exciting to the genre. What it did do was popularise these things, which is entirely different and requires zero creativity. It's like pong, a game that gets far more credit than it deserves. It wasn't the first pong game by any means, just the first to be popular. Now, Adventure, which created the top-down action adventure genre? Creative. ALttP, which added a ton of complex gameplay elements? Creative. But LoZ didn't do anything that hadn't been seen in action adventure games before, and lacked any of the complex creative elements of later games. The basic elements of the Zelda series had been done before Zelda, and that's really all LoZ has. It did bring saving to consoles though, that's pretty legit. But doesn't really apply here. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/15/12 1:30:00 PM #28: |
See, I feel like LoZ is just as big of a step up from Adventure as ALttP is a step up from LoZ, as far as taking the concept and expanding on it. The overworld/dungeons concept, the non-linear gameplay, the Zelda mythology created from scratch, all that to me is a lot more creative than the later Zeldas.
And then there's Zelda II, which for all its faults is still a huge creative departure from the original. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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pjbasis 01/15/12 2:00:00 PM #29: |
I'd like to know what game inspired Zelda II's combat.
Cause I'm gonna play that s*** -- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/pjbasis.png SuperNiceDog - 1, pjbasis - 0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KanzarisKelshen 01/15/12 2:03:00 PM #30: |
From: Lightning Strikes | #027 So let me get this straight. LoZ is less creative than LttP? Seriously? -- Sburbopolis, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/60981373 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GuessMyUserName 01/15/12 2:05:00 PM #31: |
not this topic again
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ZFS 01/15/12 3:26:00 PM #32: |
Yeah, calling Zelda 1 a creative low point for the series is some crazy talk. A game that establishes all of the design standards and philosophies -- ones modern Zelda, modeled after OoT, could stand to learn more from -- is by no means creatively bankrupt. Zelda 1 is one of the most interesting, playable games in the whole series.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SHINE GET 64 01/15/12 4:05:00 PM #33: |
starfox maybe
zelda no way -- http://i.imgur.com/pRjIr.png http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/CaptainRockman.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Sorozone 01/15/12 4:06:00 PM #34: |
Demon's/Dark Souls is pretty much the modern day Legend of Zelda.
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pjbasis 01/15/12 4:09:00 PM #35: |
This guy doesn't get it.
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 4:11:00 PM #36: |
Oh god no HM
No it isn't. The further the series gets from it the better. Simply put, LoZ isn't what people think it is. The puzzles are nigh non-existant, the difficulty is hilariously unbalanced (and when it is hard, it's not due to design) and it isn't even "open" like people say it is-it's as restrictive as other Zeldas, it simply doesn't guide you (and what attempts at guiding you it does are terribly executed). Is it a good game? Yes. But saying modern Zelda needs to take cues from it is like saying that modern Metroid needs to follow Metroid 1. But anyway, the reason it is less creative than the others is because of design. I mean look at the entirety of that game, then look at, say, the timeshift puzzles from Skyward Sword. More thought and creativity went into those puzzles alone than that entire game. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 4:12:00 PM #37: |
From: Sorozone | #155 When people say this, and things like it, I wonder if these people have actually played The Legend of Zelda. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Sorozone 01/15/12 4:16:00 PM #38: |
Pretty obvious you haven't! It was leagues and bounds better than everything else for its time, non-linear, the ability to go anywhere you want, if you weren't strong enough to go that way, come back later when you are more powerful. Hidden areas, ect.
Purely from a design standpoint of its world, it's exactly like Souls. -- - ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Liquid Wind 01/15/12 4:17:00 PM #39: |
saying modern Zelda needs to take cues from it is like saying that modern Metroid needs to follow Metroid 1.
other m would have been better off following metroid. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZFS 01/15/12 4:27:00 PM #40: |
Yeah, Zelda 1 is in no way as restrictive as modern Zelda. There are no long, unnecessary tutorials to sit through, no drawn out dialogue explanations for everything -- it's up to you to explore, test, and discover what you need to do. It's so much more than not telling you where to go. The core of Zelda 1 is its focus on exploration and player freedom. That is the polar opposite of Zelda today, which is very much engineered to be done in a certain way. I love almost every Zelda game, so I'm not saying modern Zelda is bad, but Zelda 1 is special. Yeah, the puzzles aren't as good, nowhere near, but dungeons were as much about solving them as surviving them.
When I say Zelda could learn from the original I don't mean it should copy it. I mean it should re-emphasize exploration, and give the player the freedom to try different things without being restricted by what the game wants you to do. That's the spirit of the original game. -- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 4:28:00 PM #41: |
From: Sorozone | #158 That is massively dumbing it down, and ignoring the fact that in Zelda 1... you couldn't go anywhere you want. Like later games in the series it confined you depending on certain items like the bridge, the raft, the flute, and there's pretty much one strict order through the entire game. It's no more non-restrictive than OoT, just a lot more basic about its restrictions. The one thing it does have in common with Souls is not telling you where to go, and that was true for every adventure game or RPG up until about 1990. And not necessarily a good thing! It can be a good thing, but it certainly wasn't in LoZ. Honestly, Souls is more similar to Metroid in the respects you mention. Man I always feel a little sick when the people on this board bash the original Metroid but shower the original Zelda with praise. From: Liquid Wind | #159 Speaking of which as soon as I wrote that I wondered how long it would take someone to say this. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZFS 01/15/12 4:28:00 PM #42: |
Sorozone posted...
Demon's/Dark Souls is pretty much the modern day Legend of Zelda. I never had much interest in these games before, but this is quickly convincing me. -- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Lightning Strikes 01/15/12 4:34:00 PM #43: |
From: ZFS | #160 Except as I said in my last post, the original Zelda doesn't have any of that exploration or freedom. You are still bound by obstacles, there just aren't any cutscenes justifying. It takes less time, but the barrier is still there. And there is far, far less content to explore than almost any other Zelda game. It is still structured in the exact same way, it just doesn't tell you up front. From: ZFS | #202 It really isn't. It's basically a 3D Metroidvania without the platforming. Like, take, say Order of Ecclesia, put that in 3D, and you've got Demon's Souls. -- Something something something ^Poorly disguised anti-caps sig ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZFS 01/15/12 4:38:00 PM #44: |
Well, Zelda 1 is far more playable now than Metroid is. Anyone will tell you that!
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 01/15/12 4:39:00 PM #45: |
Dark Souls is still GOTY 2011, so don't let the fact that it isn't like Zelda dissuade you from picking it up.
-- Jerry Sandusky is a football God! Jerry Sandusky is a football LEGEND! http://youtu.be/B3fRhOfkc_w ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/15/12 4:41:00 PM #46: |
From: ZFS | #044 They are both pretty unplayable though -- _foolmo_ 'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth ... Copied to Clipboard!
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colliding 01/15/12 4:41:00 PM #47: |
I didn't read this topic, I just want to say that Skyward Sword is terrible. It has nothing to do with motion controls or graphics. It's just horribly paced.
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HeroDelTiempo17 01/15/12 4:41:00 PM #48: |
Man I don't know what game you guys played but I played a game that required you to burn a specific bush with a specific item to enter a specific dungeon, and drain a lake by playing a flute that does something completely different on every other screen to enter another.
If that isn't restrictive I don't know what is. -- http://img.imgcake.com/AitchDeeTee/panicdancegifta.gif http://backloggery.com/herodeltiempo/sig.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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WazzupGenius00 01/15/12 4:51:00 PM #49: |
The bush is so obvious that I figured it out when I was five years old the very first time I saw that bush, if you're too stupid to notice that it is completely out of place then I feel sorry for you.
The flute thing I'll give you though, and it's weird that there's not a single hint-giver in the game who mentions it at all. -- The Temple of Kraden, a forum for fans of Golden Sun: http://z9.invisionfree.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/index.php?act=site ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZFS 01/15/12 4:52:00 PM #50: |
There are obviously certain barriers that exist, but that in no way takes away from the fact that Zelda 1 was a non-linear designed world that the player could tackle as was within their means. Again, that isn't the only way Zelda should work, and just as SS's controlled, linear progression is enjoyable, the freedom of the original is the same. They are great for different reasons, but the original argument here was that Zelda 1 had the least creativity of the series, which simply is not the case.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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