From: TheRock1525 | #448 Eventually you'd run out of Reapers, if you even had Reapers to begin with, because it seems you cannot harvest the synthetics to create more Reapers.
Reapers never die unless they're killed. And if the Reapers are helping organics kill synthetics, you can be sure the organics will help to protect themselves. Synthetics would stand no chance. And I doubt any Reapers would even be killed in that way.
From: TheRock1525 | #447 If you don't believe him, then choose the destroy option.
Holy s***, roleplaying!
Um that makes no sense. The Catalyst is still calling you stupid. The Destroy ending does nothing to change that what you're being told is the truth and there's no way to defy it even though it's what you've been fighting for the entire time.
-- ~Halo Now you learn the mistake of challenging me. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2734/hieis.jpg
ShadowHalo17 posted... From: TheRock1525 | #442 Never said that the Geth are going to destroy organics, only that synthetics will. Big difference. Just cause the geth eventually become peaceful towards the organic species doesn't mean that the next form of synthetic life won't revolt. Or the next. Or the next. And organics will find a way to smack them down, just like they took care of the geth.
Synthetics were apparently created to kill all organics so that they wouldn't be killed by synthetics. The Reapers were never so heavily opposed before, Shepard prevailed in ways they couldn't have foreseen. Even the Catalyst admits that. If the magic space god couldn't believe that Shepard accomplished what he did, then he's also not going to believe that there's any way life can change. Even when there could be. Hope has always been a theme, as mentioned, and the ending just shuts us all down and says no. There's no hope, there's no way anything can be anything different from what I'm telling you right now. You absolutely have to accept that this is the truth and everything you have fought for is a lie.
How anyone can accept this is beyond me.
Which is why the Catalyst gives you a choice in the matter, rather than allowing the cycle to continue. You're allowed to give people hope in three different ways. Arguing that hope is gone would mean that Shepard didn't do anything and the cycle just continued. Your mere presence confirmed to the Catalyst that the current system had to change, and gave you the options.
That's not "no hope." That's the exact opposite, you gave them their own future in one of three different ways.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
Um that makes no sense. The Catalyst is still calling you stupid. The Destroy ending does nothing to change that what you're being told is the truth and there's no way to defy it even though it's what you've been fighting for the entire time.
You're choosing to defy fate, and give yourself hope and ignore the Catalysts warnings. That's your choice. He says it's inevitable, and you chose not to believe him, hence why you destroyed the Reapers.
Can we please just drop this? You guys hate the ending, I don't and I have my reasons why.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
It really annoys me just how much Liara is pushed on you. Even when you've had no romance with her in the past, there are still parts in this game that seem like they might as well be together. And there's also even an option on the Citadel to suggest being more than just friends even when you romanced someone else.
I know I'm late here, but I want to throw in my two cents. I don't personally believe the Catalyst is some infallible being who knows all and realizes the only solution to preserve organic life is to wipe it out and start over every fifty thousand years. I believe the Catalyst believes that, but I don't necessarily believe he's right. Shepard forged peace between the geth and the quarians, who had been at odds for 300 years, proving that organic and synthetic co-existence is theoretically possible. Obviously, we don't get the opportunity to see how long it lasts, but the main thing to remember is that the instigators in that conflict were the organics, not the synthetics. The geth were always open to peaceful co-existence.
In any case, maybe the Catalyst is right and the cycle will repeat, but I think Shepard proved it doesn't have to. That's what I think anyway.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
And the only reason they EVER fought the quarians is because the quarians attacked them first. The geth didn't want to fight them, but their will to keep existing was stronger, so they defended themselves. The geth were never the instigators. They weren't even living on Rannoch to spite the quarians. They preserved the planet in case they ever came back, in fact.
Although the fact that they COULD have wiped out the quarians but didn't speaks volumes as well.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
From: TheRock1525 | #453 Um that makes no sense. The Catalyst is still calling you stupid. The Destroy ending does nothing to change that what you're being told is the truth and there's no way to defy it even though it's what you've been fighting for the entire time.
You're choosing to defy fate, and give yourself hope and ignore the Catalysts warnings. That's your choice. He says it's inevitable, and you chose not to believe him, hence why you destroyed the Reapers.
Can we please just drop this? You guys hate the ending, I don't and I have my reasons why.
It's impossible to stop it. My girlfriend just beat the game last night; she agrees with me that more closure would be swell (which is cool since that's pretty much all BioWare seems to be interested in working on from what little cryptic hints we've heard so far, so win for me) but otherwise she liked it.
She was directed to several big 'here's why the endings are absolutely dreadful' YouTube vids as soon as she dared voice that opinion of hers even out on mafiascum.net. She watched them, noted the points. Noted that some had merit. Noted that some were absolutely stupid. Told her ending-hating friends she still wasn't budging for the most part. Fights ensued. It almost got ugly.
This is just something people who flat-out abhor the endings usually won't drop, and I understand, I really do. It's something they'r very passionate about, and they feel ripped off to boot. But yeah, arguing over it doesn't work; they have some well thought-out reasons for loathing the endings and there's not much swaying them.
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"Something seems to be troubling Carth..." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
I just think there are, as with all things, vociferous detractors, and there are those even minded individuals, myself among them, who have no problem allowing others their point of view. In this particular case, I think the vociferous may not be a minority.
From: RayDyn | #474 I just think there are, as with all things, vociferous detractors, and there are those even minded individuals, myself among them, who have no problem allowing others their point of view. In this particular case, I think the vociferous may not be a minority.
Quite so. And they definitely aren't. And that's definitely a problem BioWare has to work above and beyond the norm to repair, yeah.
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"Something seems to be troubling Carth..." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
LeonhartFour posted... And the only reason they EVER fought the quarians is because the quarians attacked them first. The geth didn't want to fight them, but their will to keep existing was stronger, so they defended themselves. The geth were never the instigators. They weren't even living on Rannoch to spite the quarians. They preserved the planet in case they ever came back, in fact.
Although the fact that they COULD have wiped out the quarians but didn't speaks volumes as well.
Right, but the only reason they didn't wipe out the quarians was because they didn't know what would happen. Not because they felt sorry for them or because they wanted peace.
Yes, the quarians were the instigators, yes the geth initially just wanted peace, but once the war began and once they drove them off planet, the only reason why they didn't wipe that out wasn't a sense of remorse or pity towards the quarians, but because they really had no idea what the effect of wiping them out would be.
And JZ, you have yourself a good woman. Hang onto her.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
See, I don't want to get into these long debates because I don't even think the ending is good. It's less "I hate the ending" vs "I love the ending" and more "I hate the ending" vs "I'm indifferent towards the ending."
Really, if they're going to fix anything, all I want is more closure based on my decision. I don't really have any problem with Space God or any of the stuff that happens on the Citadel/Crucible, only that the only scene after your action is the Normandy crashing.
And I assume that's all we're going to get. Anyone thinking they're going to embrace the Indoctrination Theory is going to be supremely disappointed in whatever they release.
I almost want to picture a "10 years later" scenario where, thanks to the synthetic upgrades due to my decisions, the species remaining on Earth have not only rebuilt most of the planet, but have now developed their own Lightspeed travel that doesn't require the Mass Relays and a group of astronauts is going to test this new technology. And this is all narrated by a squad member (probably Liara) who's standing outside your grave at Arlington National Cemetery. Hell, she can give a quick rundown of what everyone one your squad has done in the past 10 years. And the final sequence is Liara looking up into the sky with a rocket shooting towards the sky, then it cuts to the ship in space and suddenly you see it burst into lightspeed away.
To me, that would offer enough closure. Actually, right now I don't care because like I said the journey so outweighs the destination that there's not an ending bad enough to actively kill my gaming experience. But what I just said would be good enough for me.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
I think the ending itself is poor on multiple levels, including a lack of closure for the most important part of Mass Effect, but I'm all for hearing multiple viewpoints and opinions, like those who agree with it, support the indoctrination theory, and hate everything about. You just have to be reasonable and not come off as obnoxious. People here are good about, the rest of the Internet I'm not so sure!
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
I don't think they'll do anything with the indoctrination theory, but it would be the best way to provide a real ending without having to drastically alter the 'ending' as it stands now. I think that's why people want to see BioWare run with it, among other reasons.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
From: TheRock1525 | #476 Right, but the only reason they didn't wipe out the quarians was because they didn't know what would happen. Not because they felt sorry for them or because they wanted peace.
Dunno why you're using this against the Geth. This is basically the same reason the Quarians wanted to destroy all the new robot AIs.
BioWare isn't going to alter the ending, just simply expand on it.
I think BioWare thinks that "Oh, they just don't get the ending" and they're going to probably introduce extra scenes to explain it more, but what you see is largely what you will get.
And personally, I'm against the Indoctrination Theory. I just want more closure. I'm fine with my Shepard's choice, I think it fits her pretty well. It's just the game needs to explain more of the ramification of the decision. And I don't mean every single little detail, but just some generalities would be nice.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
From: TheRock1525 | #485 BioWare isn't going to alter the ending, just simply expand on it.
I think BioWare thinks that "Oh, they just don't get the ending" and they're going to probably introduce extra scenes to explain it more, but what you see is largely what you will get.
And personally, I'm against the Indoctrination Theory. I just want more closure. I'm fine with my Shepard's choice, I think it fits her pretty well. It's just the game needs to explain more of the ramification of the decision. And I don't mean every single little detail, but just some generalities would be nice.
Man, Rock. Your feelings mirror mine and my girlfriend's to a tee. It's a pleasantly refreshing experience.
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"Something seems to be troubling Carth..." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
TheRock1525 posted... LeonhartFour posted... And the only reason they EVER fought the quarians is because the quarians attacked them first. The geth didn't want to fight them, but their will to keep existing was stronger, so they defended themselves. The geth were never the instigators. They weren't even living on Rannoch to spite the quarians. They preserved the planet in case they ever came back, in fact.
Although the fact that they COULD have wiped out the quarians but didn't speaks volumes as well.
Right, but the only reason they didn't wipe out the quarians was because they didn't know what would happen. Not because they felt sorry for them or because they wanted peace.
Yes, the quarians were the instigators, yes the geth initially just wanted peace, but once the war began and once they drove them off planet, the only reason why they didn't wipe that out wasn't a sense of remorse or pity towards the quarians, but because they really had no idea what the effect of wiping them out would be.
And JZ, you have yourself a good woman. Hang onto her.
But they also never pursued them after the fact. Legion elaborates on this point multiple times in ME2. They didn't pursue war, but they also didn't pursue peace because they didn't accept it as a viable option until Shepard came along and gave them a kind of "hope" that coexistence was possible. "When the creators have believed victory was possible, they have attacked us 100% of the time," I believe it went. Regardless, the Catalyst believes synthetic life will rebel and seek to destroy organic life, but the geth have never personified this. They simply want to be allowed to exist. They have never sought to destroy organic life. They have only defended their right to existence. Again, Legion deals with that in ME3. "We only defended ourselves because the creators attacked. Do we deserve death?"
I guess it comes down to whether you believe everything the Catalyst says is fact. We don't have enough information to say one way or the other, but I do think there are several reasons to believe the Catalyst is not infallible.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
I really don't see them going for it. I never believed in it but told its more ardent BSN supporters I'd be OK with it if more followed; I'm not one for especially artsy, experimental, French New Wave sorts of endings where the last canonical thing we'd see as-is would be Shepard's gasp for breath and whatnot. But I did tell them, hey, if they want to continue with it (like you're saying, ZFS) then sure, but I don't believe it was their aim.
I had a lot of vitriol flung at me, people telling me I was just 'an indoctrinated sheep for not seeing the obvious truth' and 'you'll just claim you believed it all along when BioWare announces it tomorrow' and then tomorrow became the next day, and the next day, and then a week, and then two weeks... and yeah, still no cookie.
But back to my point, I doubt that's what they'll go with. Not because I think it's a bad idea but I feel like it's possibly just too much work and, frankly, at its core I think the writers genuinely like what they did. Take that as you will... but I feel like they're only post-shipping realizing more closure would be so incredibly useful and a bit more explanation about the confounding elements of the endings would go a long way toward satisfying the many, many folks who find the endings terrible and distasteful. It'd also turn the endings from 'alright' to 'great' for me, personally.
There are going to be a lot of people that just won't be happy unless everything about the endings is rewritten on some level, and the indoctrination theory is a great way of going about doing that, but I feel like BioWare won't bite. They like the concept of what they did and that's just a lot of resources to spend on the project on top of that.
No, what I'm picturing is a couple more cutscenes and some more exposition. Maybe an epilogue 'reel' integrated into the thing too so people who honest-to-goodness refuse to believe Earth survived the Relays blowing can back down, on top of other reasons for it.
By the way, as an aside: people who think every star system ignited when the Relays went dark are just wrong, IMO. Does it make a lick of sense lore-wise? Not especially. Does it clash with the Normandy getting torn up from the beam? Yes, absolutely. Did the writers think much about several aspects of the endings? No, not really, so this is just no different to me. Methinks the Normandy was just way too close to that thing, considering in Synthesis we literally watch Earth go partly awash with green light Lifestream-style and it's pretty clear from all the soldiers standing around and the Reapers getting enveloped in the light and departing the planet that nothing exploded.
To say nothing of Shepard getting up at the end of Perfect Destroy, but obviously that's fuel for the indoctrination fire.
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"Something seems to be troubling Carth..." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
HeroDelTiempo17 posted... From: TheRock1525 | #476 Right, but the only reason they didn't wipe out the quarians was because they didn't know what would happen. Not because they felt sorry for them or because they wanted peace. Dunno why you're using this against the Geth. This is basically the same reason the Quarians wanted to destroy all the new robot AIs.
I'm using against both of them. Neither side really gets much sympathy from me. The Quarians were the aggressors, correct, but if the only thing stopping the Geth killing all Quarians was uncertainty then the Geth aren't exactly getting brownie points from me.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
Re: quarians versus geth, neither side is especially innocent but as of ME3 I'm definitely more anti-quarian than I was before. They remain my most interesting race in the series but the stupidity of striking the geth at such a turning point in galactic history is profound.
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"Something seems to be troubling Carth..." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
TheRock1525 posted... HeroDelTiempo17 posted... From: TheRock1525 | #476 Right, but the only reason they didn't wipe out the quarians was because they didn't know what would happen. Not because they felt sorry for them or because they wanted peace. Dunno why you're using this against the Geth. This is basically the same reason the Quarians wanted to destroy all the new robot AIs.
I'm using against both of them. Neither side really gets much sympathy from me. The Quarians were the aggressors, correct, but the only thing stopping the Geth killing all Quarians was uncertainty then the Geth aren't exactly getting brownie points from me.
Well, to be fair, their uncertainty isn't necessarily a strike against them. The fact that they actually wanted to weigh the implications of the actions instead of just wiping them out is pretty admirable. A lack of emotion from a still developing AI isn't problematic.
And they probably would not have destroyed them anyway because if they believed wiping out the quarians was the best choice, then they would have hunted them down.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
From: HeroDelTiempo17 | #493 See, this is what shouldn't be acceptable.
Especially in a trilogy like this, the ending should have been the strongest part. They shouldn't have half-assed anything!
You're absolutely correct on that. I may like the endings, and I may think that with more closure they'll be relatively great, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the bizarre half-assing regarding various aspects of it.
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"Something seems to be troubling Carth..." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
People believe that because the mass relay in Arrival went supernova, but in one of the bad endings, the blast actually does incinerate the entire Earth and everyone on it. I don't see that being the case, though, and it's easy enough to explain that the Crucible beam destroys them in a way that doesn't cause a system destroying explosion. Causing everyone to be caught in the Sol system is pretty bad, though. There are a lot of parts about the ending that don't seem well thought out, and fall apart under scrutiny.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
