Board 8 > Mass Effect Discussion and Holding the Line Topic [SPOILERS]

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well its a rather minor thing, so it's a bit surprising.

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If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. - Zapp Brannigan

It isn't a decision in ME2. It's a very small side event that only happens if you go into extra dialogue options. I'm just surprised something that small would have an impact of any sort.

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~Halo Live, fight, survive, as a family.
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ShadowHalo17 posted...
It isn't a decision in ME2. It's a very small side event that only happens if you go into extra dialogue options. I'm just surprised something that small would have an impact of any sort.

Except that I've pointed out several times how small, minor events can change how scenes play out.

Like Conrad Verner living or dying when he tries to save your life is determined by whether or not you did Citadel: Rita's Sister assignment.

There's a lot of little small things that if you don't do them they do change how things play out in ME3. Not by much, mind you.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Well, it's more like a reward for being thorough.

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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."

Yes, I realize that. But even your example is an actual assignment. I'm not mad about it, so don't get me wrong. I'm just surprised. As far as I'm aware there's nothing else like that.

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~Halo You're not the brightest.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/907/bandfinisher.jpg

I'm still pissed that the reveal of Tali's face was just an edited photo from the internet.



When Leon told me that we'd get to see Tali's face I was so damn excited.

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~Halo You're not the brightest.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/907/bandfinisher.jpg

I want to see all the changes from your squadmates dying in ME2. But I can't bring myself to let them all die. Wish someone would make a "everyone but Shepard dies" playthrough for ME3 and put it on youtube.

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~Halo Now you learn the mistake of challenging me.
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If anyone is wanting to do silver/gold, hit me up.

Geth w/ salarian engi...so easy. =)

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http://img.imgcake.com/Nevest356/1dollagifas.gif - Legen- wait for it...
We had sex and...I caught feelings! - Barney DARY!

Just watched the Shepard Indoctrination video.

I can safely say I completely disagree with it and there's a lot of stuff that's explained away rather easily. And especially don't like the theory because it basically makes ME3 a complete non-ending. You didn't defeat the Reapers, you didn't save the galaxy, you didn't do any of that. All you did was assemble a giant space armada and nothing got accomplished.

See, the reason why the "destroy" option was red and you lived was because it was, in my opinion, the most selfish option. There's many reasons why I believe this:

1. You destroy all "current" synthetic life. No where do they state that synthetic life can never exist again, simply that all synthetics that exist now are destroyed.
2. You doomed the universe. You may have saved it from the threat of the Reapers, but the Catalyst states that synthetic life will wipe out all organic life. And this isn't just bulls*** from the Catalyst, either. The Prothean VI also observed that the galaxy following a set mathematical pattern in terms of the rise and fall of the galaxy, and as he stated himself, it wasn't the Reapers creating this pattern. It is a pattern that can and always will happen, and the Reapers are actually the slaves to it. You may have given yourself a temporary stay of execution, but eventually you will create more synthetic life, it will rebel against the organics, and it will wipe them out.
3. The reapers contain the genetic material of previous races, cultures, species, etc. The Catalyst even says it's the way to preserve them. If you destroy them, then they're gone forever, with no way of ever restoring them.

So if you pick the destroy option, you've temporarily saved organics from the Reapers, but you've doomed all organics to complete and utter destruction by synthetics, you've wiped out ancient civilizations that might have been brought back to life, and you've killed off all the current active synthetics like EDI and the Geth. That doesn't seem heroic, at best it seems short-sighted.

There's also the fact that IF the Reapers were trying to trick Shepard into picking the "control" option by making it blue, why the bloody hell would you allow a vision of the Illusive f***ing Man to appear when looking at that option, while allowing the heroic Anderson appearance for the "destroy" option. That makes no sense and completely undermines the Reapers trying to trick Shepard into a decision. At the very least, it should have no visions.

Now, is "control" the paragon option? It's up for debate, but part of me argues yes. Why? Because, if the Shepard you're playing as is a paragon of virtue, that would be a reflection of how the Reapers would behave from now on. Reapers are only horrifying because of what they did in the name of preserving the universe. If you replace that Catalyst's cold logic with Shepard's humanity, you're going to get a completely different Reaper force. They become peace-keepers and protectors of the galaxy. They represent something Shepard could never achieve on his own: complete galactic peace. He could stop them from indoctrinating species, stop them from harvesting, all the while maintaining their military might. He also represents something that the Catalyst could never do: preserve life without destroying it. Shepard's humanity allows him to ignore the mathematics, and with the Reaper force behind him he could prevent synthetics from actually wiping out organics, unlike the "destroy" ending where, without the Reapers organics could be right f***ed.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

But see, neither of these endings are good, IMO. The only acceptable ending is "synthesis." Why? It's pretty simple. "Destroy" puts the fate of the galaxy in terms of the mathematics of the rise and fall of civilization. "Control" puts the fate of the galaxy in Shepard, who now controls the most powerful force in the galaxy. "Synthesis" does what neither of those can do: put the fate of the galaxy in the galaxy's hands. By merging synthetic and organic life, you've created a new species that falls outside of the mathematics of the rise and fall of the galaxy (since there are no longer organic and no longer synthetics to rebel against them as they're all the same). You also don't put Shepard in a position of absolute power, meaning his/her action/inaction could have dire consequences on the universe, her being the equivalent of a god after choosing "control." And here's the biggest reason why I believe this: it's the only one where Shepard truly dies. With enough EMS, you survive in "destroy." In "control," you lose your physical body but you become the Reapers' master. In "synthesis" you lose everything. You lose your body, you lose your mind, you perish. But it's a representation of the self-sacrifice needed to save the galaxy. It's easy to make a decision knowing you could live on either in your physical form or in an ascended form, but to give up everything for the sake of giving the galaxy it's own future, not determined by you or math? That takes some balls.

Anyway, that's just my explanation.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Personally I want an explanation of why Shepard's suddenly doesn't have his armor after he's hit with the reaper blast.

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Soft silly music is meaningful magical
http://www.last.fm/user/yoryan

Completely disagree with that take. I'll form some thoughts later.

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"When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."

As will I. Maybe!

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Yoblazer: http://oi53.tinypic.com/2hd0dh1.jpg
Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!

I'm kind of tired of talking about it at this point, so hopefully HM and Yo can take care of it for me. But indoctrination just makes too much damn sense and actually makes the ending more bearable.

And those dreams have the oily black shadows, as the rachni queen described. There's also the black effects around the screen when talking to the Illusive Man.

There's just too much crap pointing towards indoctrination.

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~Halo Rolling around at the speed of sound.
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From: ShadowHalo17 | #414
And those dreams have the oily black shadows, as the rachni queen described. There's also the black effects around the screen when talking to the Illusive Man.

How about that being the Illusive Man working his Reaper magic?

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SomeC - sheer explosives since meeting that crazy hobo.
BlAcK TuRtLe grabbed the Guru victory, slow but steady.

You know, thinking about it I think could "fix" the endings somewhat by offering Paragon and Renegade options WITHIN the current options. For example:

Paragon Destroy - Sacrifice self to kill all Reapers. Geth and EDI survive, but relays are also destroyed.
Renegade Destroy - All synthetics die, Shepard lives, relay intact.

Stuff like that. You could also apply it to Control and have Shepard do it for different reasons.
Can't think of any for Synthesis but it could be the "True Neutral" route.

EDIT: It would fix the ending choices, that is. Still doesn't fix the biggest problem: bad writing in general.

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You have no time to ponder such questions, as Link has just grabbed a Smash Ball.
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I honestly prefer the whole thing to just be a dream brought on by indoctrination. That is how much I hate the ending we got. So much that I would prefer a non-ending.

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~Halo There is no Crane, only Scarecrow!
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yeah the IT should work

saw vid and apparently during the intro mission you can see the kid run into the building...yknow the building the Reaper roflnukes....

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

From: ShadowHalo17 | #417
I honestly prefer the whole thing to just be a dream brought on by indoctrination. That is how much I hate the ending we got. So much that I would prefer a non-ending.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the ending too, I just think that nearly all of its problems are due to Bioware sucking it up at writing. I'd be happy with a rewrite.

For example, the Catalyst's dialogue and appearance being incredibly insulting, the ending themes being inconsistent with the rest of the narrative themes in the series, ending options that (my) Shepard would never choose, awful color-swapped final cutscene....all of that I chalk up to bad writing and laziness. With some polish, the ending could be decent, and I think that's all anyone wanted from it.

I mean, look at the thing with Joker abandoning the fleet and the magical teleporting squadmates. You know how that could be fixed?

"HEY JOKER I'M ABOUT TO BLOW UP THE CITADEL AND KILL/CONTROL/SPACE MAGIC THE REAPERS. EVACUATE EVERYONE YOU CAN FROM EARTH AND TELL THE FLEET TO GET OUT OF THE SOL SYSTEM"

ta-dah

seriously how many f***s do you have to not give to not put anything like that in the game when you're writing the ending

That said I also like indoctrination theory, and I think it's more likely than a rewrite in terms of how Bioware will "amend" the ending. Bioware's too proud to say "yeah what we wrote kinda sucked, sorry." Although an indoctrination ending would also imply that. <_<

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That's pretty much what I figure. I honestly think that what they gave us originally is what they intended. Just a poorly and lazily written suck-fest. But then this indoctrination theory popped up and I said... okay, it kinda makes sense but I doubt it's true. Now it just seems too perfect not to be true. The only thing that's bothering me is that I don't believe bioware meant to do that at all. But now with all of this evidence they pretty much have to say that yeah, it was indoctrination. Even if that wasn't their original intention.

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~Halo Everybody run!
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I'd buy into the Indoctrination Theory if there wasn't a plothole so big you could drive a Mack Truck through it.

The Illusive Man's role.

See, according the theory, TIM represents the indoctrinated part of the mind, except there's one fatal flaw: it's the Illusive Man. The same man Shepard despises. The same man Shepard doesn't trust in the slightest. Arguably, outside of the Reapers, Shepard's greatest enemy (more so than Saren, even). They talk about in the codex how Indoctrination turns enemy into friend and friends into enemy. Yet in this scenario, the Reaper Indoctrination doesn't do that. It turns enemy into... well, enemy. Why would the Reaper Indoctrination allow the Illusive Man to represent the Indoctrinated aspect of Shepard's mind? It makes it much easier to resist someone you don't trust and you despise. If the Reapers were trying to trick Shepard into betraying himself and falling under Indoctrination, why not use Anderson? Take a father figure that Shepard trusts, and turn him against him. Makes it much easier to control Shepard when you present him with his friends turning against him. And considering the fact that at no point does Shepard fall in line with TIM's line of thinking and EASILY resists him (either verbally or physically after he initially shoots Anderson) shows that either the Reapers are pants-on-head stupid in terms of Indoctrination or that the scene you're watching play out is real.

There's also the fact that when present with the choices, the visual representation of the "control" option is TIM. Now, once again, why are the Reapers allowing an image of Shepard's greatest enemy to represent the choice they want him most to fall in line with? Why would Shepard ever go with something the Illusive Man wanted to do?

There's also another big plothole: no one is able to recover from Indoctrination. Everyone that's fallen under it has never been able to fully break it. They can resist, temporarily, and it's why guys like TIM and Saren chose suicide. It's why Matriarch Benezia temporarily broke it only to immediately fall back under it's control. The closest you can come is the Rachni Queen. And considering that they speak telepathically via music, I assume that's what makes them somewhat immune to Indoctrination.

Also, the Mass Relays blowing up really didn't bother me because they were created by the Reapers, and destroying them was supposed to be symbolic of the galaxy now forging it's own future rather than using the future laid out for them by the Reapers.

See, the problem I have with the ending is so much of it has to be extrapolated rather than shown. I don't mind what I saw, I just hate what I didn't see.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Or to put it simply: if you want to convince someone of something, would you ask someone they love to try and convince them of it, or would you ask the person they despise the most in the world to try and convince them?

Cause if my mom was trying to convince me of something, I'm pretty sure I'd easily ignore anything she tried to tell me.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Well, depending on what you did at the end of Mass Effect 2, you may not have like TIM, but Shepard still felt he was the best hope to help humanity against the reapers(giving him the base).

I think it has less with Shepard disliking him, and more that he thought he would prove to be a very powerful asset. Then in turn the Reapers also saw this in him, and choose him, not necessarily to convince Shepard of anything, but to get rid of a large threat.

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Nobody has been able to break out of indoctrination, and no one has been able to resist its initial influence either. That's why Shepard should be indoctrinated because he isn't immune. That's my main reason for believing the theory. His contact with Project Rho (from Arrival, you haven't played it so I guess you wouldn't know), the dead Reaper, Sovereign, Harbinger, Collectors, the Reaper on Rannoch... he needs to be indoctrinated.

I assume the only way to break indoctrination is to destroy the Reapers. That's what I hope the ending does. Shep will regain consciousness long enough to realize he's indoctrinated and do something in the short time that he's free to make sure the Reapers come to an end. He can either die as well or live on free from indoctrination because there are no more Reapers.

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~Halo Give into the Night.
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But Shepard witnessed what Cerberus did throughout ME3. You saw what he did at Sanctuary. Even if you thought of him as necessary evil after ME2, it doesn't change the fact that he went too far in ME3 and passed that Moral Event Horizon.

Once again, there's no reason for Shepard to trust TIM.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Alright, dammit, I lost everything I was typing. Essentially, I disagree that there is anything inherently 'selfish' about choosing to destroy the Reapers. The Catalyst even tells Shepard that he will die by choosing that path, so there's no indication that he will live. Destroying the Reapers has been the goal of Shepard, and every other race, since the start of ME3. Being turned into half-synthetic against their will, however, was not on the agenda until the final hour. There are so many variables involved in control and synthesis, not to mention they are the ideas of indoctrinated individuals, who preferred anything to the destruction of the Reapers.

Shepard also brought peace to the organics and synthetics of the time, between the Quarian and Geth. It's a possibility that organics will be killed by synthetics, but far from a certainty. The game has a central conflict revolving around this--the Reapers, being synthetic, ultimately unable to kill organics; the Geth and Quarians not destroying each other. The Reaper mentality is just absurd when you break it down: synthetics killing organics to save them from synthetics. The dumbness of this idea is enough reason to destroy the Reapers tbqh

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"When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."

Nobody has been able to break out of indoctrination, and no one has been able to resist its initial influence either. That's why Shepard should be indoctrinated because he isn't immune. That's my main reason for believing the theory. His contact with Project Rho (from Arrival, you haven't played it so I guess you wouldn't know), the dead Reaper, Sovereign, Harbinger, Collectors, the Reaper on Rannoch... he needs to be indoctrinated.

Why? Why does he NEED to become Indoctrinated? Plenty of people have had physical contact with Reapers, he's not unique. Is Javik Indoctrinated? He's had probably as much or more experience with the Reapers.

See, the difference is that Shepard may have interacted with Reaper tech, but he never extensively spent time with them the way guys like Saren/Benezia (who both lived inside Sovereign) or TIM (who had the s*** IMPLANTED INTO HIS HEAD). That's why they became indoctrinated and why Shepard is fine.

Sorry, but there's too many damn holes in this theory for me to agree with it. If you guys want to go with it, fine, but I see so many problems with it that I can safely chalk it up as a non-explanation.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

It's still just grasping at straws.

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RayDyn on his Droid, probably at work.

Well, Shepard has shown to be a different class of person, I think. I wouldn't say he's immune to indoctrination, but cracking his will would be a difficult process even for someone like Harbringer. He's always been portrayed as someone who's rather special. I think the indoctrination theory is alright, but it definitely doesn't HAVE to happen.

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"When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."

Alright, dammit, I lost everything I was typing. Essentially, I disagree that there is anything inherently 'selfish' about choosing to destroy the Reapers. The Catalyst even tells Shepard that he will die by choosing that path, so there's no indication that he will live.

I'll have to replay/rewatch it, but I'm almost certain there's no guarantee of death.

Destroying the Reapers has been the goal of Shepard, and every other race, since the start of ME3. Being turned into half-synthetic against their will, however, was not on the agenda until the final hour. There are so many variables involved in control and synthesis, not to mention they are the ideas of indoctrinated individuals, who preferred anything to the destruction of the Reapers.

The indoctrinated believe that they have to make themselves useful to the Reapers by any means necessary. What they are is not truth Synthesis. You see that when the organics is burned away from Saren: almost 90% of his body is inorganic. At this point, he's basically a synthetic.

Shepard also brought peace to the organics and synthetics of the time, between the Quarian and Geth. It's a possibility that organics will be killed by synthetics, but far from a certainty.

It is a certainty, though. You know why? Because we can't comprehend it. The Catalyst is essentially a super computer to end all super computers. It makes calculations that the greatest minds in the world could never comprehend. When it says "this is the fate of organic life" I'm damn sure going to believe it.

The game has a central conflict revolving around this--the Reapers, being synthetic, ultimately unable to kill organics; the Geth and Quarians not destroying each other. The Reaper mentality is just absurd when you break it down: synthetics killing organics to save them from synthetics.

Not kill. Harvest. Preserve. Without the Reapers, organic life would cease to exist period. At the very least, with the Reapers the organic life still lives on in an ascended form.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

You have not played Arrival, so you can't comment on that. He came into direct contact with a Reaper artifact that pretty much knocked him out for a bit and then he woke up to a s*** ton of indoctrinated people. Then he was knocked out again and kept in the facility for two days.

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From: ZFS | #429
Well, Shepard has shown to be a different class of person, I think. I wouldn't say he's immune to indoctrination, but cracking his will would be a difficult process even for someone like Harbringer. He's always been portrayed as someone who's rather special. I think the indoctrination theory is alright, but it definitely doesn't HAVE to happen.

That's why it's taking so long though. Shepard is obviously special. Anyone else would have been indoctrinated right away after coming into contact with Project Rho, but he persevered. But with everything else, it was still enough to begin a process of indoctrination that Harbinger and other Reapers had to really focus on to get working because of how strong willed Shepard is. He's still not immune though. Eventually he would have to succumb, and he did. At the end.

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~Halo Now you learn the mistake of challenging me.
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2734/hieis.jpg

Look, I'm not going to get into a big argument over this. If you want to believe the Indoctrination Theory for the ending, fine. More power to you if it helps you accept the ending.

Personally, I think it's too damn flawed to work and there's too many holes in it, and I refuse to use it. What I saw is what I got and I can accept that.

The end.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Well you started the argument in the first place, so...

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~Halo There is no Crane, only Scarecrow!
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3739/scarecrowq.jpg

We've seen the process of 'harvesting' in ME2; it is absolutely horrific. The end result is the same, with entire species being killed off to build the next-generation of Reapers to continue the cycle endlessly. Synthetics killing organics to save them from synthetics. It's bizarre Reaper thinking, and I'm not sure how 'ascended form'--fueling Reapers--is okay!

Also, the Catalyst isn't a thing I'm inclined to believe or trust. 'You don't even know because you can't comprehend it' is pretty silly. Reapers, synthetics, couldn't stop organics; the Geth couldn't overrun organics. Shepard is supposed to die because he's part synthetic. This thing is wrong a lot in the short time we see it!

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"When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."

So I'm trying Pinnacle Station for the first time and it's pretty easy. The four different simulations have objectives and goals that kind of remind me of the multiplayer, especially the capture simulation.

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Gamertag/PSN-Murphiroth
"Would have liked to run tests on the seashells..."

From: ZFS | #435
We've seen the process of 'harvesting' in ME2; it is absolutely horrific. The end result is the same, with entire species being killed off to build the next-generation of Reapers to continue the cycle endlessly. Synthetics killing organics to save them from synthetics. It's bizarre Reaper thinking, and I'm not sure how 'ascended form'--fueling Reapers--is okay!

Also, the Catalyst isn't a thing I'm inclined to believe or trust. 'You don't even know because you can't comprehend it' is pretty silly. Reapers, synthetics, couldn't stop organics; the Geth couldn't overrun organics. Shepard is supposed to die because he's part synthetic. This thing is wrong a lot in the short time we see it!

Reapers have no origin. They simply... are.

That was fine with me. I'm pissed that they were given a beginning because it just takes the mystery away and makes them f***ing stupid.

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~Halo Rolling around at the speed of sound.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2417/sonicspeed.jpg

ShadowHalo17 posted...
Well you started the argument in the first place, so...

You're the one that begged me to watch the video in the first place!

We've seen the process of 'harvesting' in ME2; it is absolutely horrific. The end result is the same, with entire species being killed off to build the next-generation of Reapers to continue the cycle endlessly. Synthetics killing organics to save them from synthetics. It's bizarre Reaper thinking, and I'm not sure how 'ascended form'--fueling Reapers--is okay!

Horrific, but necessary. Without the Reapers, there would be no organic life. All would by completely synthetic, and all organic DNA (which the Reapers contain) would be lost forever. Worlds would be changed, no longer containing any sort of biological life. At least the Reapers life exists in some way, shape, or form. Without them, humanity would have never existed period.

Also, the Catalyst isn't a thing I'm inclined to believe or trust. 'You don't even know because you can't comprehend it' is pretty silly. Reapers, synthetics, couldn't stop organics; the Geth couldn't overrun organics. Shepard is supposed to die because he's part synthetic. This thing is wrong a lot in the short time we see it!

Ahh, see here's the key difference here: the Catalyst role is a lot like that of my own God. We often see suffering, pain, agony in the world and we question God's plan. And the response is usually that we can't comprehend/understand his plan.

I choose to trust the Catalyst's plans the same way I trust's God's plan, and therefore it was reflected in my decisions in the game.

Of course now I could turn this into a religious debate and I sure as f*** don't want that. But keep in mind this is part of the roleplaying experience. You chose to disbelieve the Catalyst and destroy the Reapers. I chose to believe the Catalyst and did what was necessary to end all future conflicts between Organics and Synthetics.

Neither answer is right or wrong because of the brevity of the ending. For all we know, you were wrong and in the next 1000 years a new synthetic life form is created that completely destroys all organic life (like building some Halo Rings or something). You could be right, and the galaxy gets everlasting peace. I could be right in that the only way to end conflict between organics and synthetics is to create a new species containing both elements.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Also, I realize that I put HM in a position where he can't really attack my reasoning for the ending without attacking my faith, and I apologize for that.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

From: TheRock1525 | #430
It is a certainty, though. You know why? Because we can't comprehend it. The Catalyst is essentially a super computer to end all super computers. It makes calculations that the greatest minds in the world could never comprehend. When it says "this is the fate of organic life" I'm damn sure going to believe it.

See, this is the problem.

If this is ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUE, what the hell was the point of Legion? What the hell was the point of the Geth origin story? Even in Mass Effect 1 they hinted that the Quarian's relationship with the Geth was not as it initially seemed. Why go through all this trouble to show that the Geth are not a bad race - show that in fact the opposite is true and they're very peaceful - and then take a dump on all that and go "lol nope they'll kill you all no matter what."

It eschews another main theme of the series: hope (which if you remember was also brought up by Legion as "admirable"). Everyone tells you that if you cure the Krogans they'll just go to war again. But still, you can trust in the Krogan and cure the genophage. The Quarians tell you that the Geth need to be destroyed, but you can still try to unite the races and bring peace between the two. And the big one: the Reapers tell you that you have no chance of survival and Shepard tells them to f*** off.

But then magic space god goes "lol ur wrong" so of course Shepard would blindly accept that synthetics are always evil for no reason.

Bad. Writing.

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From: TheRock1525 | #439
Also, I realize that I put HM in a position where he can't really attack my reasoning for the ending without attacking my faith, and I apologize for that.

I think the difference between God and the Catalyst is that the Catalyst is explicitly shown to be an idiot while God is not.

If he's so worried about synthetics killing organics, then why would he not just, you know, kill the synthetics instead?

The other problem is that "God's incomprehensible plan" is fine when it's a religion. But the Catalyst is a fictional character. Which just makes it bad writing.

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If this is ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUE, what the hell was the point of Legion? What the hell was the point of the Geth origin story? Even in Mass Effect 1 they hinted that the Quarian's relationship with the Geth was not as it initially seemed. Why go through all this trouble to show that the Geth are not a bad race - show that in fact the opposite is true and they're very peaceful - and then take a dump on all that and go "lol nope they'll kill you all no matter what."

It eschews another main theme of the series: hope (which if you remember was also brought up by Legion as "admirable"). Everyone tells you that if you cure the Krogans they'll just go to war again. But still, you can trust in the Krogan and cure the genophage. The Quarians tell you that the Geth need to be destroyed, but you can still try to unite the races and bring peace between the two. And the big one: the Reapers tell you that you have no chance of survival and Shepard tells them to f*** off.

But then magic space god goes "lol ur wrong" so of course Shepard would blindly accept that synthetics are always evil for no reason.

Never said that the Geth are going to destroy organics, only that synthetics will. Big difference. Just cause the geth eventually become peaceful towards the organic species doesn't mean that the next form of synthetic life won't revolt. Or the next. Or the next.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

Terrible writing. May I also remind you that people don't like to be called stupid, it may be true, but it's still not cool when a video game essentially says "oh hey you're too stupid to comprehend this so just believe that I'm right and you're wrong."

That's bull s***. And it's a cop-out.

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~Halo There is no Crane, only Scarecrow!
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
From: TheRock1525 | #439
Also, I realize that I put HM in a position where he can't really attack my reasoning for the ending without attacking my faith, and I apologize for that.
I think the difference between God and the Catalyst is that the Catalyst is explicitly shown to be an idiot while God is not.

If he's so worried about synthetics killing organics, then why would he not just, you know, kill the synthetics instead?

The other problem is that "God's incomprehensible plan" is fine when it's a religion. But the Catalyst is a fictional character. Which just makes it bad writing.

Kill the synthetics, and the organics will just create new synthetics.

--
TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

From: TheRock1525 | #442
Never said that the Geth are going to destroy organics, only that synthetics will. Big difference. Just cause the geth eventually become peaceful towards the organic species doesn't mean that the next form of synthetic life won't revolt. Or the next. Or the next.

Of course. But the Catalyst still tells you that you need to kill them anyways.

Why?

Because they're synthetics, and that makes them bad.

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From: TheRock1525 | #444
Kill the synthetics, and the organics will just create new synthetics.

So? Kill them too! He has no problem with killing organics over and over and over.

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ShadowHalo17 posted...
Terrible writing. May I also remind you that people don't like to be called stupid, it may be true, but it's still not cool when a video game essentially says "oh hey you're too stupid to comprehend this so just believe that I'm right and you're wrong."

That's bull s***. And it's a cop-out.

If you don't believe him, then choose the destroy option.

Holy s***, roleplaying!

--
TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
From: TheRock1525 | #444
Kill the synthetics, and the organics will just create new synthetics.
So? Kill them too! He has no problem with killing organics over and over and over.

Eventually you'd run out of Reapers, if you even had Reapers to begin with, because it seems you cannot harvest the synthetics to create more Reapers.

--
TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.

From: TheRock1525 | #442
Never said that the Geth are going to destroy organics, only that synthetics will. Big difference. Just cause the geth eventually become peaceful towards the organic species doesn't mean that the next form of synthetic life won't revolt. Or the next. Or the next.

And organics will find a way to smack them down, just like they took care of the geth.

Synthetics were apparently created to kill all organics so that they wouldn't be killed by synthetics. The Reapers were never so heavily opposed before, Shepard prevailed in ways they couldn't have foreseen. Even the Catalyst admits that. If the magic space god couldn't believe that Shepard accomplished what he did, then he's also not going to believe that there's any way life can change. Even when there could be. Hope has always been a theme, as mentioned, and the ending just shuts us all down and says no. There's no hope, there's no way anything can be anything different from what I'm telling you right now. You absolutely have to accept that this is the truth and everything you have fought for is a lie.

How anyone can accept this is beyond me.

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~Halo Give into the Night.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
From: TheRock1525 | #442
Never said that the Geth are going to destroy organics, only that synthetics will. Big difference. Just cause the geth eventually become peaceful towards the organic species doesn't mean that the next form of synthetic life won't revolt. Or the next. Or the next.
Of course. But the Catalyst still tells you that you need to kill them anyways.

Why?

Because they're synthetics, and that makes them bad.

He never tells you to kill him, he says by destroying the Reapers you will destroy all synthetic life as well, which is apparently what the Crucible/Catalyst machine can do.

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TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man.
"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.