Yeah it's still grasping at straws, no matter how you look at it. At least for now.
But at the same time... it just makes sooooooo much f***ing sense. To the point where it's just ridiculous and uncanny. I would honestly be MORE surprised if Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. With everything that occurs in this game, it just fits too damn well. But more than that, Shepard isn't immune to indoctrination, at least he shouldn't be. And with all his confrontation with Reapers and their tech, and especially Object Rho... it's just silly to think that he WOULDN'T be indoctrinated.
-- ~Halo You're not the brightest. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/907/bandfinisher.jpg
I can safely say I am... perfectly fine with the ending.
Was it good? God no.
But I'm not horribly offended by it. Hell, it kinda fit the Shepard I was building from the beginning and reflected the choices made along the way. So I can't really be angry about something where I'd go "OK, that's exactly what Shepard would have done."
Also, nice Buzz Aldrin cameo. Also the name "Shepard" makes so much more sense with the ending.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
"And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movements and fall under full Reaper control. (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)"
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
Well, the thing is that some of the stuff at the end isn't necessarily entirely consistent with what the series teaches about indoctrination. The series actually explains its symptoms quite well, and it doesn't all fit.
And we can say Shepard isn't immune to indoctrination and all, but indoctrinated people don't kill Reapers. That much is very clear. You can argue that they are trying to indoctrinate him throughout the game with all sorts of things, but that doesn't mean he eventually must succumb to it.
Like I have said before, the general theory is nice, but it goes overboard in some areas to try to sell it.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
The Indoctrination Theory is helped by the fact that the entire ending sequence (everything post-Harbinger beam) just seems too surreal and trippy to actually be taking place. It's something that I'm sure all players noticed the first time through, but most simply could not articulate it because of the overpowering confusion/disappointment/rage/wtf we felt at the time. It definitely works better as a scenario played out entirely in Shep's mind.
-- Yoblazer: http://i43.tinypic.com/25z1non.jpg Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!
I think the only part that surreal was the elevator ride up and meeting the Catalyst. That part seemed so out there, but everything before it didn't have that feeling, at least for me.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
Hmm... the whole thing felt trippy to me. It's like... how did Anderson AND Illusive Man get there? Why was Shepard teleported right near the one area that housed the ultimate catalyst controls? Why did the Reapers not space-filet a bloodied up, broken, hobbled Shep as he slowly inched his way toward destroying them? These aren't really examples of fans grasping at straws, they are extremely basic questions that you'd imagine the writers would have asked themselves during the first brainstorming session.
-- Yoblazer: http://8board.webs.com/ariel.jpg Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!
Although, I would agree that it fits better as something going on in Shepard's head. I just don't think BioWare intended for that to be the case, and as Leon mentioned, I think the video does try hard too hard to sell the idea in some areas. Like how did Anderson end up there? He even says to Shepard the arms are moving and changing as he's walking, which from BioWare's perspective is enough detail for most people. Why does Shepard's gun have infinite ammo? Because what happens if you run out? The Illusive Man was always intended to be full on indoctrinated, no need for him to be a mind phantom or whatever. He was supposed to be a Reaper boss battle, even!
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
From: PartOfYourWorld | #256 The Indoctrination Theory is helped by the fact that the entire ending sequence (everything post-Harbinger beam) just seems too surreal and trippy to actually be taking place. It's something that I'm sure all players noticed the first time through, but most simply could not articulate it because of the overpowering confusion/disappointment/rage/wtf we felt at the time. It definitely works better as a scenario played out entirely in Shep's mind.
This for sure.
From: ZFS | #257 I think the only part that surreal was the elevator ride up and meeting the Catalyst. That part seemed so out there, but everything before it didn't have that feeling, at least for me.
The whole thing was surreal. Even when Illusive Man enters, it's just so... what? He's f***ed up, and then you see all the distortion and black effects, and Reaper influences.
Indoctrination just makes too much god damn sense.
At first I was just like WHAT THE GOD DAMN F*** DID I JUST WATCH? Then the whole indoctrination theory sunk in and it kinda started making sense. Then it REALLY sunk in. There's just... no way Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.
Then I watched it and everything just became better for me, because the things that didn't make sense to me before suddenly did.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
Rock. It isn't about hating the ending. It's just about realizing what really happened.
Regardless, it isn't confirmed, sure. So there is a possibility that the theory isn't at all true. It's still worth a watch. Just to gain a different perspective. Pleeeease watch it. PLEASE. I just want to know your thoughts on it. I'm glad you weren't disappointed by the ending. I didn't even think you would be.
I still just want you to watch the video. Whenever you get the time. i just want to know what you think.
I'm not going to watch any video that suggests my character was indoctrinated.
I don't care if it "makes sense" or "explains" anything, under no circumstances was my Shepard indoctrinated. Therefore, any theories that begin with this concept are going to be completely ignored on my part.
Also, it's 3 in the morning.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
It's more than that though. Why is the Destroy ending is the only ending where Shepard lives, despite GhostBoy explicitly telling him he will die? Why are the Paragon/Renegade choices flipped for just this decision? Those don't seem like coincidence.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
TheRock, I'm not denying your point of view at all. I at least just want you to watch the video. You don't have to believe it. You can laugh at it all you want. I just want you to watch it, so you can see it. I don't require you to believe it. Just please, as a favor to me, watch it. That's all I request. As I said, I will exchange. I'll do what you want me to do as long as it doesn't involve money of course.
I just want you to be open to other possibilities. you don't have to believe it. I don't expect you to believe it either (until it's confirmed). Just pleeeeeeease. For meeeeeeeee. Watch it!
-- ~Halo There is no Crane, only Scarecrow! http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3739/scarecrowq.jpg
PartOfYourWorld posted... Hmm... the whole thing felt trippy to me. It's like... how did Anderson AND Illusive Man get there? Why was Shepard teleported right near the one area that housed the ultimate catalyst controls? Why did the Reapers not space-filet a bloodied up, broken, hobbled Shep as he slowly inched his way toward destroying them? These aren't really examples of fans grasping at straws, they are extremely basic questions that you'd imagine the writers would have asked themselves during the first brainstorming session.
TIM being there makes sense since he told the Reapers about the Citadel and he's so full blown indoctrinated he couldn't work against them anymore anyway, so why not let him be there in case someone does show up? Anderson surviving and getting there is no more improbable than Shepard, really.
And like HM said, a lot of these things can be explained by simply saying "gameplay mechanics."
Don't get me wrong. I would like for the theory to be true so it can open up the possibility of an ending more satisfying and less bleak, but it isn't the only possible explanation.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
I don't think it's the only possible explanation, but it is the explanation I currently find to be the most palpable.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
Well, I can buy the Catalyst trying to mislead Shepard into making the decision it wants him to by making the one decision it doesn't want him to make seem the least appealing, but you can have that without indoctrination, too.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
Yeah, I have no issue with the Illusive Man or Anderson being there. I don't even believe those two are even major contributors to the indoctrination theory being true. The Illusive Man at that point was a complete Reaper agent, no different than Saren in ME1. The similarities in some lines and ideas struck me as a way to show he had completely lost control of himself. I think it tries to make sense of what happens along the way, but it doesn't even have to be indoctrination for it to occur that way. And more than that, the ending itself, as in everything that follows after you choose, is just... I dunno. His 'mind' sees the same thing regardless of his choice?
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
Honestly, it does explain away all the weird things about that last section too.
Why does no one else acknowledge the kid in the beginning? Anderson doesn't hear him, no one seems to give two ****s that he's having trouble getting in the evac, and no one but Shepard ever acknowledges his presence.
Why are there suddenly trees and bushes around the beam after Shepard is roasted, but not on the run up to it?
How does Coates not see Shepard or Anderson make the beam? More importantly, why does he order everyone to fall back after Harbinger flies away to leave the beam completely unguarded after that?
Why does no one try and contact Shepard and ask HIM if he made it before Hackett does at the very end?
All of these can be answered by bad programming and bad writing, but I don't think Bioware could be THAT bad and the alternative is much more intriguing.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
I thought TIM represented the Control Ending, Saren represented the Synthesis Ending, and Anderson represented the Destroy ending.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
I always believed the kid, and the nightmares that followed, to be Shepard suffering from the stress, trauma, and loss he's been through and experiencing. He gets visibly shaken more than once in the game due to the loss of people that he couldn't save. I'll admit the 'oily shadows' in the nightmares are kinda interesting. I think the indoctrination theory is interesting, and better than the alternative right now, but I still don't believe BioWare planned it that way or intends to build on it with DLC.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
Yeah the DLC seems like it will make or break things for a lot of people.
Here's to hoping the put some effort into it and don't let the vocal people sour them into making something btter.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
I'm very tempted to put ME3 at the top, but I think as a whole, ME2 nailed everything down better. Not by much, mind you, but ME2 was a better all-around game experience.
Now, ME3 definitely did some things better than ME2. Squad banter on the ship was great, and it feels more like your characters were getting to know each other rather than getting to know you. But that was kinda the trade-off. This time around, you really didn't get many great interactions on an individual level. I may have loved Garrus in the previous two games, and he was still great here but he was just... there. It's why Javik is my favorite character in this game: he had great interaction with my squadmates and with me, even if there was only a handful. Also, auto-piloting my Shepard more was kinda frustrating. I don't mind limiting my decisions for the sake of the narrative, but there was a lot of moments where I felt like control should have been put into my Shepard's hands.
ME3 upped the customization and it was definitely for the best, as this is the most versatile I could ever make my Shepard. Especially with abilities like Charge which I never found useful in the previous game. Suddenly, with 200% recharge speed, I'm slamming into enemies left and right. The trade off is that it's pretty easy to break the game. Banshees weren't even a threat. Charge, Nova, charge, nova, etc. I got hit by their instant kill melee once. I took down brutes this way as well.
Where ME2 trumps ME3 is in the missions. ME3 has a stronger focus on the central narrative, but the problem is that the side missions, compared to ME2, were a whole lot weaker. Since 6 of them were based off MP maps, it was quite clear that these wouldn't have the same interesting narrative the ME2 side missions had. And there was simply less of them. There was plenty of side quests, but a lot of the boiled down scanning planets or picking up a random item on a mission. Scanning planets had gone from tedious to almost pointless. You can pick up some credits and stuff along the way, but for the most part credits weren't all that important.
I'd also say that Mass Effect 3 felt a bit too small. Not in the sense of the storytelling (it was grander than ever) but in the sense that the exploration was largely minimized. The previous games gave you a handful of hub worlds and the Normandy to explore. This game gave you one. At first, I liked it because the Citadel was much improved and towards the end of games, hub worlds usually become more of an annoyance towards the end when you're just trying to get to the next mission. But then it made me realize how empty the world felt without it. The Citadel was nice, but I missed Omega and Illium. Hell, I missed Noveria. The game tried to make up for this with pseudo-hub worlds on (like on Earth or Sur'kesh) but it's just not the same if you can never go back to it.
I understand that the more tightly focus storytelling was a reflection of the situation (Shepard isn't going to dick around solving minor problems while the galaxy is burning) but I think a bit of the charm was lost along the way. The Citadel was great, but I feel like it wasn't enough. And I think that's a reflection of the entire game. Everything feels a bit too streamlined. The Hammerhead is gone, meaning any and all missions you take will be on foot. Even a few turret sections don't really break this up. One of my favorite missions was running around in the Geth Consensus shooting beams at Reaper code, partially because it was something different. It seemed like towards the end I was getting into a pattern: complete mission, go talk to everyone on the Normandy to see if they have anything new to say, go to the Citadel and drop off many stuff I needed to (also talk to squadmates just in case), rinse, repeat. I found myself wishing there was some sort of diversion (as long as it wasn't the Mako).
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
I'm sorry, I have had a little too much vodka tonight (I know I'm an alcoholic but I've been better lately so lay off). In which case I can't really focus on all this endgame talk. I might take part in it tomorrow, but it will be a busy day. So it'll probably just pass. However, the reason I am making this post is to hopefully mark the general location of where I need to read.
Also, on another note, I like biotics more than tech powers. Aside from the Infiltrator of course. Tactical Cloak is without a doubt the best. Aside from that, biotic detonations are just so much better and cooler than tech bursts. Can't wait to play again as a Vanguard or Adept.
-- ~Halo Now you learn the mistake of challenging me. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2734/hieis.jpg
I mean, ME1 came out in 2007. Here we are, 5 years later and it's finally over.
Kinda the same feeling I had when Ezio's story finally finished, and although it was less time (2009-2011) having 3 games to get very attached to a character and then have them gone is always tough.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
I don't think that Bioware actually intended to use the Indoctrination explanation, but I actually do prefer it to the endings that we got and think it makes complete sense.
-- Women come and go, but Metal Gear is forever. Perfect Odds A Cappella ~ http://i43.tinypic.com/34pdhc7.jpg
Also, while Infiltrator is still my favorite class, I've been playing with an Asari Vanguard in multiplayer. With Stasis Bubble and Charge, it's kind of silly how much of the battlefield that I can control. Also, her heavy melee is literally a Dragonball Z move and pairs EXCELLENTLY with stasis, shotguns, and charge.
I've been using the Disciple with her for the low weight and clip. It's been pretty effective.
-- Women come and go, but Metal Gear is forever. Perfect Odds A Cappella ~ http://i43.tinypic.com/34pdhc7.jpg
Basically another 'donate money if you want the ending changed' kind of deal, but instead of going to charity it went to cupcakes for Bioware. The cupcakes feature red, blue and green colored frosting and the letters A, B or C on each, and there's enough so that each Bioware employee gets to pick which one they want. The catch is that all the cupcakes taste the same.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
Basically another 'donate money if you want the ending changed' kind of deal, but instead of going to charity it went to cupcakes for Bioware. The cupcakes feature red, blue and green colored frosting and the letters A, B or C on each, and there's enough so that each Bioware employee gets to pick which one they want. The catch is that all the cupcakes taste the same.
love it.
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http://img.imgcake.com/Nevest356/1dollagifas.gif - Legen- wait for it... We had sex and...I caught feelings! - Barney DARY!
From: futuresuperstar | #282 Also, while Infiltrator is still my favorite class, I've been playing with an Asari Vanguard in multiplayer. With Stasis Bubble and Charge, it's kind of silly how much of the battlefield that I can control. Also, her heavy melee is literally a Dragonball Z move and pairs EXCELLENTLY with stasis, shotguns, and charge.
I've been using the Disciple with her for the low weight and clip. It's been pretty effective.
If you use a pistol with her and put the stun mod on it, anything you hit w/ your heavy melee has a chance to be stunned.
>_>
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http://img.imgcake.com/Nevest356/1dollagifas.gif - Legen- wait for it... We had sex and...I caught feelings! - Barney DARY!
Nevest posted... From: futuresuperstar | #282 Also, while Infiltrator is still my favorite class, I've been playing with an Asari Vanguard in multiplayer. With Stasis Bubble and Charge, it's kind of silly how much of the battlefield that I can control. Also, her heavy melee is literally a Dragonball Z move and pairs EXCELLENTLY with stasis, shotguns, and charge.
I've been using the Disciple with her for the low weight and clip. It's been pretty effective.
If you use a pistol with her and put the stun mod on it, anything you hit w/ your heavy melee has a chance to be stunned.
>_>
That's super cool, but I don't know if I can afford to not have a shotgun with her. Hmm...
-- Women come and go, but Metal Gear is forever. Perfect Odds A Cappella ~ http://i43.tinypic.com/34pdhc7.jpg
futuresuperstar posted... Nevest posted... From: futuresuperstar | #282 Also, while Infiltrator is still my favorite class, I've been playing with an Asari Vanguard in multiplayer. With Stasis Bubble and Charge, it's kind of silly how much of the battlefield that I can control. Also, her heavy melee is literally a Dragonball Z move and pairs EXCELLENTLY with stasis, shotguns, and charge.
I've been using the Disciple with her for the low weight and clip. It's been pretty effective.
If you use a pistol with her and put the stun mod on it, anything you hit w/ your heavy melee has a chance to be stunned.
>_>
That's super cool, but I don't know if I can afford to not have a shotgun with her. Hmm...
It's better to rely on your powers than to rely on your guns, in my experience.
-- SomeC - sheer explosives since meeting that crazy hobo. SuperNiceDog. Best friend.
ShadowHalo17 posted... Oh wow. So Prothy the Prothean actually came from in-game, specifically Joker. I figured it was just fans coming up with that originally >_>
It did come from the fans originally, actually. That's what they called him before he had an official name. Bioware put it in there because they saw the name floating around on the forums and thought it was funny.
Also, if we're talking strictly N7 missions, ME3's were better than ME2's. I mean, ME2 occasionally had some neat ones like running around on that ship that was about to slide off of the cliff, but most of them were pretty generic, too. Plus, no voice acting in most of them hurts them a bit. I mean, ME3's N7 missions weren't stellar or anything, but I liked them a bit better. Plus, ME3 had awesome side missions like Grissom Academy, the Rachni nest, dismantling the bomb, etc. So overall I think ME3 beats out ME2 in the sidequest department unless you want to lump Loyalty Missions in as sidequests, but then there's no point in having this discussion to begin with in that case.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
PartOfYourWorld posted... Hmm... the whole thing felt trippy to me. It's like... how did Anderson AND Illusive Man get there? Why was Shepard teleported right near the one area that housed the ultimate catalyst controls? Why did the Reapers not space-filet a bloodied up, broken, hobbled Shep as he slowly inched his way toward destroying them? These aren't really examples of fans grasping at straws, they are extremely basic questions that you'd imagine the writers would have asked themselves during the first brainstorming session.
I think you have to look at this from different angles, not purely a narrative one. Why does he get warped there? Because you can't have the slow walk, badly injured Shepard spend another twenty minutes running through the Citadel fighting off things. It's the easiest solution that retains the emotion they were going for during that last charge. I agree, though, that they are basic questions that should have been asked by the writers themselves. There's no good explanation for why it makes sense purely from a narrative perspective, and that's why it's so disappointing and frustrating.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
LeonhartFour posted... ShadowHalo17 posted... Oh wow. So Prothy the Prothean actually came from in-game, specifically Joker. I figured it was just fans coming up with that originally >_>
It did come from the fans originally, actually. That's what they called him before he had an official name. Bioware put it in there because they saw the name floating around on the forums and thought it was funny.
Also, if we're talking strictly N7 missions, ME3's were better than ME2's. I mean, ME2 occasionally had some neat ones like running around on that ship that was about to slide off of the cliff, but most of them were pretty generic, too. Plus, no voice acting in most of them hurts them a bit. I mean, ME3's N7 missions weren't stellar or anything, but I liked them a bit better. Plus, ME3 had awesome side missions like Grissom Academy, the Rachni nest, dismantling the bomb, etc. So overall I think ME3 beats out ME2 in the sidequest department unless you want to lump Loyalty Missions in as sidequests, but then there's no point in having this discussion to begin with in that case.
I do count Loyalty Missions is sidequests, yes. Hence why I consider ME2's sidequests better than ME3's.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
Well you don't have to recruit all of the characters, just the required amount until the game lets you proceed to the next plot mission (Horizon, Collector Ship, Reaper IFF, ending). And in some cases, Loyalty and N7 missions also count towards that mission goal. So if you don't HAVE to do all the recruitment missions, doesn't that make them sidequests too?
So suddenly ME2 is a game made almost entirely of sidequests and it's an argument of semantics. <_<
Personally I considered Loyalty and Recruit missions to be the "main plot."
-- You have no time to ponder such questions, as Link has just grabbed a Smash Ball. http://backloggery.com/herodeltiempo/sig.gif
HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Well you don't have to recruit all of the characters, just the required amount until the game lets you proceed to the next plot mission (Horizon, Collector Ship, Reaper IFF, ending). And in some cases, Loyalty and N7 missions also count towards that mission goal. So if you don't HAVE to do all the recruitment missions, doesn't that make them sidequests too?
Yes. Any missions that I am not obligated to do to complete the game are sidequests. I only consider the main storyline missions as the Prologue, Freedom's Progress, Horizon, The Collector Ship, Reaper IFF, the Collector Attack on the Normandy, and the Collector Base. These missions, no matter what choices you've made, you had to do and you have to succeed. The recruit missions are optional as are the loyalty missions. In one playthrough I can recruit Samara. In another one, I don't have to.
So suddenly ME2 is a game made almost entirely of sidequests and it's an argument of semantics. <_<
Personally I considered Loyalty and Recruit missions to be the "main plot."
I don't, and I've given my reasons why.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
But again, this becomes a pointless discussion to have in the first place in that case. It's like arguing Ace Attorney games have a better plot than SMB1.
--
"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
But again, this becomes a pointless discussion to have in the first place in that case. It's like arguing Ace Attorney games have a better plot than SMB1.
Uh, how does this analogy work at all?
I'm not comparing a platformer to a point and click adventure.
I'm comparing a game to its sequel.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
TheRock1525 posted... LeonhartFour posted... And that's fine.
But again, this becomes a pointless discussion to have in the first place in that case. It's like arguing Ace Attorney games have a better plot than SMB1.
Uh, how does this analogy work at all?
I'm not comparing a platformer to a point and click adventure.
I'm comparing a game to its sequel.
If you count Loyalty Missions as sidequests, you basically have one of the best sets of sidequests in any game period.
It makes any sort of comparison pointless to discuss because why are you going to argue otherwise? It's like why are you even bringing this up?
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."