OctilIery posted... The thing is, the transgender pageant isn't really discriminatory. It's a competition within a minority, which is PART of the larger majority(Women).
A competition which excludes an otherwhise eligible minority is discriminatory. A competition made specifically for a minority is NOT discriminatory.
So you don't really see anything wrong with her identifying as a man to enter one pageant, and then a female to enter another?
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
foolm0ron posted... From: OctilIery | #040 Biology should have nothing to do with it. Oh, okay, biology shouldn't have anything to do with a beauty contest that only cares about how good your genes make you look
Makes sense to me
Except plastic surgery is allowed, so really it's just as much about her genes as it is any other contestant.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
From: StealThisSheen | #049 For the transgender pageant, she identified as a man who had an operation. Meaning she identified as a man, because females weren't allowed in the contest.
She does not identify as male. Transgender simply means that her gender identity doesn't match her biological identity.
-- ICON: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set Bidoof on fire.
StealThisSheen posted... OctilIery posted... The thing is, the transgender pageant isn't really discriminatory. It's a competition within a minority, which is PART of the larger majority(Women).
A competition which excludes an otherwhise eligible minority is discriminatory. A competition made specifically for a minority is NOT discriminatory.
So you don't really see anything wrong with her identifying as a man to enter one pageant, and then a female to enter another?
Is there anywhere that it is stated that she identified as a man? Accepting yourself as a transgender does not change what you identify yourself as.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
From: Liquid Wind | #043 it's still really ****ed up for them to DQ her midway through the competition. if you define woman as someone who lacks Y chromosome's then I can understand that, but she should have been denied entry in the first place then
No different than if the competition was for people aged within a certain range and she misrepresented that age. She lied about being naturally born female in her entry.
No different than if the competition was for people aged within a certain range and she misrepresented that age. She lied about being naturally born female in her entry.
mmm, I would've thought they'd do a background check, at least google around!
how bored do you have to be to argue with joyrock, sep. like is there really nothing better for you to do here or something.
though on topic i'm also curious on what if she had won. would've been the best troll ever.
"And now presenting Miss Universe! Isn't she loooovely.... Isn't she wonderful... She also had a dick and a set of balls two years ago. THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT EVERYONE!"
so many people would be confused. men would cry, women would cry more realizing that the best of their kind used to have a dick.
--
The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
iiicon posted... She does not identify as male. Transgender simply means that her gender identity doesn't match her biological identity.
But the pageant she entered was for men only, who had had operations to become women. For instance, women who had become men could not enter. So to apply, she had to mark her sex down as Male.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
AdditionalPylon posted... From: Liquid Wind | #043 it's still really ****ed up for them to DQ her midway through the competition. if you define woman as someone who lacks Y chromosome's then I can understand that, but she should have been denied entry in the first place then No different than if the competition was for people aged within a certain range and she misrepresented that age. She lied about being naturally born female in her entry.
It's actually quite different because she's not misrepresenting anything. She's a woman, disqualified from a contest made for women. She fits all the criteria other than an offensive and discriminatory rule.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
StealThisSheen posted... iiicon posted... She does not identify as male. Transgender simply means that her gender identity doesn't match her biological identity.
But the pageant she entered was for men only, who had had operations to become women. For instance, women who had become men could not enter. So to apply, she had to mark her sex down as Male.
And? Her biological gender and the gender she identifies with are not the same thing.
And for the record, I highly doubt that, at any point, she had to mark down her sex as "Male" for the competition.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
well i had a good 24oz of PBR that i slow drank and it seems to be working in making me sleepy finally. so there's that route! or really anything to make you relax. which.... does not strike me as the same as arguing with joyrock.
--
The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Wanglicious posted... well i had a good 24oz of PBR that i slow drank and it seems to be working in making me sleepy finally. so there's that route! or really anything to make you relax. which.... does not strike me as the same as arguing with joyrock.
Arguing on the internet is actually really relaxing for me, because it's something I enjoy. Weird, I know, but it's why I'll randomly enter debates on topics I don't even care about.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
Weakupedia posted... joyrock have you ever thought that maybe acting like a pretentious tool is the reason no one likes you
I might have considered it if nobody liked me, but as a decent amount of people on here like me(moreso when I bother to try and reign it in) and I'm actually quite well liked IRL, I don't put much thought into it.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
I'm not taking a stance on the whole discrimination thing
I'm just saying that I think it's kinda unfair to enter a contest for men, then complain when you can't be in a contest for women. If she had JUST tried to enter the Miss Universe Canada pageant, then, well... Yeah, I'd have issue with the ruling. But she had just taken part in a pageant for men only not long ago, and is now trying one for women only. It just... Doesn't seem fair to switch on a whim like that and then call injustice.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
From: StealThisSheen | #058 But the pageant she entered was for men only, who had had operations to become women. For instance, women who had become men could not enter. So to apply, she had to mark her sex down as Male.
From: StealThisSheen | #065 She had no problem saying she was a male to enter a pageant.
For somebody who so deeply identifies as female, why would she enter a contest for men.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word transgender - she did not enter a contest for men, she entered a contest for males who identify and resemble females. It is open to both pre- and post-op women. She never once claimed she identifies as a man. In her words, she isn't a "a trans person but as 'a woman, with a history'. She said she was certain she was female from about age four, underwent hormone therapy at age 14, and had surgery at age 19."
-- ICON: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set Bidoof on fire.
StealThisSheen posted... Like, let me make my position clear.
I'm not taking a stance on the whole discrimination thing
I'm just saying that I think it's kinda unfair to enter a contest for men, then complain when you can't be in a contest for women. If she had JUST tried to enter the Miss Universe Canada pageant, then, well... Yeah, I'd have issue with the ruling. But she had just taken part in a pageant for men only not long ago, and is now trying one for women only. It just... Doesn't seem fair to switch on a whim like that and then call injustice.
I already explained why it's not unfair. Both of these contests are meant to compare people of similar qualities. One is to compare m2w transgenders, one is to compare women. To deny her in the second one is to suggest she is not a women just because of her biological gender, which is highly offensive. In order for your argument to have any water, you'd have to suggest that the first contest was meant to compare women in general and it was not - it was meant to compare a minority of women.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
OctilIery posted... And again, I doubt the contest at any point forced her to say "I am male".
It's a requirement. You can't be female and enter. And I get your whole... Biological doesn't = what she identifies as. But at the same time, it's a contest for men, as per the rules. Why would you enter a contest for men if you identify as a female. It just seems... Weird. Since it's not like you're competing against females. You're competing against men in a contest that makes it known they're men.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
hey now, so long as she's not uh... equipped let's say, then it's totally cool to hit it. she's fairly attractive so what the hell, if i didn't know better then it'd make sense to me too.
now if i do know better, well, the aftermath can make things slightly awkward. then you remember that she was a miss universe candidate so you go **** it. if it's good enough for a country, it's good enough for me.
--
The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
iiicon posted... From: StealThisSheen | #058 But the pageant she entered was for men only, who had had operations to become women. For instance, women who had become men could not enter. So to apply, she had to mark her sex down as Male. From: StealThisSheen | #065 She had no problem saying she was a male to enter a pageant.
For somebody who so deeply identifies as female, why would she enter a contest for men. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word transgender - she did not enter a contest for men, she entered a contest for males who identify and resemble females. It is open to both pre- and post-op women. She never once claimed she identifies as a man. In her words, she isn't a "a trans person but as 'a woman, with a history'. She said she was certain she was female from about age four, underwent hormone therapy at age 14, and had surgery at age 19."
Oh, it was preop as well? Even better, still solidifies my point.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
That contest was for people who were genetically male but identify as female, this contest was for people who are genetically female. Again, I fail to see why them following their own rules (especially after she lied about being born a female) is discriminatory.
Maybe it should be open to transgendered people, but then you come into a whole lot of other snags about pre-op vs post-op and what constitutes transgender etcetc. They chose a clean and simple way to restrict contestants to the gender of their choosing, and went with it.
****, it's a beauty contest. They're notoriously shallow; this is about as good as you could possibly expect.
AdditionalPylon posted... That contest was for people who were genetically male but identify as female, this contest was for people who are genetically female. Again, I fail to see why them following their own rules (especially after she lied about being born a female) is discriminatory.
Maybe it should be open to transgendered people, but then you come into a whole lot of other snags about pre-op vs post-op and what constitutes transgender etcetc. They chose a clean and simple way to restrict contestants to the gender of their choosing, and went with it.
****, it's a beauty contest. They're notoriously shallow; this is about as good as you could possibly expect.
A contest for "only genetic females" is still very offensive.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
From: StealThisSheen | #082 I'm just trying to say that like, I, personally... If I identified completely as a woman, then I'd want to compete against other women... Not a contest that draws attention to the fact that I'm not biologically a woman.
It's a contest that celebrates a category of women, of which she applies, while Miss Universe is a contest that celebrates all women, of which she believes she should apply.
Don't worry about not being able to convey your thoughts properly; it's a tricky subject. Jenna Talackova is a woman who believes she is a woman. The Miss Universe committee believes that, because she once had a penis, she isn't a woman. I like what one of my local politicians had to say:
"I would say she is born female," he said by phone. "It's taken a while for science and society to catch up to that fact…. If you are a female, even if you've got male bits that you were born with, you have that right to transition, to be who you really are. Nature works in funny ways. Sometimes our minds are mismatched with our bodies, and science has shown that pretty clearly."
(Spencer Chandra Herbert is the best)
-- ICON: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set Bidoof on fire.
also if any of you did your research you'd know that the rules of the contest do not specifically address anything to do with sex changes or plastic surgery
--
http://img.imgcake.com/MerMerYesMer/yeezygifje.gif Mer
Yeah, Icon, I apologize for trying to get my point across in a rather idiotic manner. I wasn't taking the time to think out what I was trying to say.
What I was trying to say is basically exactly what is going on in this topic by people like me:
People look at Miss Universe Canada and go "That's for females." People look at the other pageant and go "That's for men."
Yeah, it's for women that are biologically men, but there will obviously be people that still look at it (like me, tonight, as I have been for the sake of argument) that go "that contest is for men."
So what I was trying to say is that it seems weird to me that she'd be okay with taking part in a contest that will inevitably get that connotation if she identifies 100% as a female. And to me, if she's okay with that, then it looks like she hasn't completely turned away from her male side. So to me, it seems kinda unfair to take legal action/etc. against a pageant that says they only want natural born women, because she was okay with being in a contest that wanted only natural born men and would get a "it's for guys" stigma.
EDIT: And I realize that's rather close-minded, but that's the particular stance I took for this argument.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
StealThisSheen posted... Yeah, Icon, I apologize for trying to get my point across in a rather idiotic manner. I wasn't taking the time to think out what I was trying to say.
What I was trying to say is basically exactly what is going on in this topic by people like me:
People look at Miss Universe Canada and go "That's for females." People look at the other pageant and go "That's for men."
Yeah, it's for women that are biologically men, but there will obviously be people that still look at it (like me, tonight, as I have been for the sake of argument) that go "that contest is for men."
So what I was trying to say is that it seems weird to me that she'd be okay with taking part in a contest that will inevitably get that connotation if she identifies 100% as a female. And to me, if she's okay with that, then it looks like she hasn't completely turned away from her male side. So to me, it seems kinda unfair to take legal action/etc. against a pageant that says they only want natural born women, because she was okay with being in a contest that wanted only natural born men and would get a "it's for guys" stigma.
Anyone that thinks Miss Universe should only be for biologican females, and not for women, is ignorant, close minded, and should not really be considered.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
From: scotted4 | Posted: 3/27/2012 3:13:25 AM | #093 What if I dont believe he's a woman? Just a dude with a vagina, do I not have a right to watch Miss Universe with real Misses?
I've succeeded in making myself tired enough to sleep, so I thank those involved.
And now, I leave with this:
Is it discrimination if a female who says she feels like a female trapped in a male trapped in a female body can't enter the Miss International Queen contest.
R-Truth would want to know.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
iiicon posted... From: OctilIery | #090 Anyone that thinks Miss Universe should only be for biologican females, and not for women, is ignorant, close minded, and should not really be considered. damnit
At least from what I've read he doesn't take that position, and wasn't arguing in favor of her being removed, he was just suggesting that such is how it's typically viewed.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
As for your other point, it sounds like she'd prefer it if trans beauty pageants didn't exist:
"Realistically, the prizes are not the same. The publicity is not the same," she said. "And even if a prospective employer in a modelling agency or whatever, if they see, 'Oh, you've won the Miss Trans Whatever' instead of 'You've won Miss Canada or whatever', they're going to cast you as a trans person in a movie, not as a woman. So I think this whole attempt to separate trans people into a separate community is really harmful discrimination."
-- ICON: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set Bidoof on fire.
Anyone that thinks Miss Universe should only be for biologican females, and not for women, is ignorant, close minded, and should not really be considered.
Anyone who pushes their ideals on another is committing an evil act, you are trying to push your ideals onto me, just like that man tried to push his ideals onto Miss Universe
r-truth would want to know what if she felt she were really a male spider trapped inside a female spider, trapped inside a female trapped in a male trapped in a female body.
--
The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Anyone that thinks Miss Universe should only be for biologican females, and not for women, is ignorant, close minded, and should not really be considered.
Anyone who pushes their ideals on another is committing an evil act, you are trying to push your ideals onto me, just like that man tried to push his ideals onto Miss Universe
Actually, no, YOU'RE the one attempting to push ideals. Because you're suggesting that since YOU think they're inferior they should be treated as such. If you weren't suggesting that your views should matter, I wouldn't be pointing out how awful of a person you are.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!