Board 8 > Canadian Miss Universe finalist disqualified.

(+) Yeah! (+)

What kind of logic is this?

"That rule is stupid and unfair, but you'd better follow it."

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Well, in the real world, sometimes rules exist, and sometimes they aren't fair to everyone involved, but the people setting the rules are well within their rights to not accept people not playing by the rules they set up. I'm not sure what else you want to hear, exactly. As dumb as I think the rule is, they did make it a rule.

From: Paratroopa1 | #252
Well, in the real world, sometimes rules exist, and sometimes they aren't fair to everyone involved, but the people setting the rules are well within their rights to not accept people not playing by the rules they set up. I'm not sure what else you want to hear, exactly. As dumb as I think the rule is, they did make it a rule.

This

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And in the real world, bad rules don't get changed by people being submissive. If you don't care about her being able to compete ever, then whatever. But if you think it's a s***ty rule, you shouldn't be telling anyone not to actively fight against it. That's not how it works.

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I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo
Now this is entertainment!

I actually agree with Foolmo. What has the board come to?

The proper response is boycott and protest against the pageant agency. Mayyybe lawsuit, but I really have no clue if beauty pagents are required to follow equal oppurtunity things like employers are.

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From: DeepsPraw | #256
The proper response is boycott and protest against the pageant agency. Mayyybe lawsuit, but I really have no clue if beauty pagents are required to follow equal oppurtunity things like employers are.

If they did I would have sued BET long ago for lulz

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Biolizard28 posted...
And in the real world, bad rules don't get changed by people being submissive. If you don't care about her being able to compete ever, then whatever. But if you think it's a s***ty rule, you shouldn't be telling anyone not to actively fight against it. That's not how it works.

Jeez, that's not what I said. Actively fighting it is a good idea and if this is the best way to bring publicity to this issue, good for her. It is still the proper response for them to bar her from competition - I can't hold that against them. The only thing I can hold against them is that they made the rule in the first place, and that they didn't do a background check on her to stop her from competing in the first place.

I swear some of you love to overcomplicate things. They don't care what the gender is, just the sex. It's pretty damn new since the distinction started becoming known, but the bottom line and simplest standard to use in this and many, many other fields is what your crotch had originally. If a contestant felt she was a man but was born a woman nobody would bat an eye. It's a beauty contest, blame the fact that male and female can refer to either sex or gender. Just also realize that almost always the question refers to sex.

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Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

My argument, though, is that gender is actually what's important, whether they know it or not. We aren't judging them by their lady parts. If we were, then sex would be important. We're judging them on everything else but that, which is really gender's domain, not sex.

.. Miss universe is totally judging by lady parts. That's pretty much the backbone of most beauty contests. I mean going a step further, male and female are *primarily * terms for sex. Masculine and feminine are the ones for gender. Those waters are just murky because no real distinction existed for the longest time. And surprise, some masculine traits are desired in a woman. But for the contests, they're absolutely sex first, gender second.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

I'm making the same joke again, but wow, I must've missed the part where they judge the girl's ovaries. You'd think I'd remember something like that.

Otherwise, if sex were more important than gender, you would think that they wouldn't have been completely fooled by the fact that she appears to be a woman in every respect. Which makes sense, because she's a woman. I don't really get why it matters how she got there.

I feel metroid composite's post was really excellent, so here's my take: what constitues "legitimate" and "illegitimate" discretion is ultimately subjective, and will fluctuate with changing cultural norms. This is a sort of cop-out answer, I admit, but I feel it's probably the best way to approach this.

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What part of gender that has nothing to do with sex is judged on a more or less physical only level?

I mean if you're completely excluding sex, I don't get how you can shoehorn gender in on only physical looks when that's almost always simply what they feel they identify as.

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I'd say how the person is identified by other people is also a very real part of gender.

I mean, what does this person look like to you?



Looks like a woman to me.

I don't see the problem here.

You indeed missed the part where that's judged. And yes, this woman had a sex change to become a female. She was, regardless of how she felt, a male before the change. It isn't called a gender change operation. She's a woman and a female now and a pretty hot one too. That said, she wasn't always one. I don't know if the medical conditions she's more prone to have are male or female, but whatever. But not always means there lies the rub, or lack of one. You judge the woman by her body primarily. You judge her by her personality secondly. It is shallow and superficial, primarily about looks, and the goal of the contest is finding the best woman, or female here, and if she's a bit of a guy, that's to be expected. Just never male. Because if you have to draw the line somewhere you can't pick a simpler one.

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The King Wang.
Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

I'd say how the person is identified by other people is also a very real part of gender.

The Hanson Sisters?

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I always though the big thing about being transgendered is it wasn't based on anything OTHERS thought, and more what you thought. A good number of transgendered people don't really look thoroughly convincing as the opposite sex, yet it's agreed upon it'd be insensitive to some extent to not acknowledge them as the gender they prefer.

It seems like a big double standard because had this been say, a pre-op transgendered person who didn't look female, they'd not get nearly the support this person did.

Drawing the line at sex for a female only thing just makes more sense than using gender, which is such a shaky construct in the first place and would more or less just move the line a bit further away so that it's dividing transgendered people instead.

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I think paratroopa was trying to say "personal appearance" without sounding like a jerk. But it is true that looks are a big part of gender. If you're a woman born with the wrong body, you're obviously going to want to change that. How you look isn't solely for other people, of course. It's a big part of self-image and self-esteem.

KJH posted...
It seems like a big double standard because had this been say, a pre-op transgendered person who didn't look female, they'd not get nearly the support this person did.

Well they also wouldn't be in this situation. Just as an ugly girl isn't going to be named Miss Canada, neither is an ugly transwoman.

As for that last point, biological sex is irrelevant because reproductive parts are not judged on Miss Universe in any way.

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It seems like a big double standard because had this been say, a pre-op transgendered person who didn't look female, they'd not get nearly the support this person did.

If they had the operation/had a legal sex change why shouldn't they be recognized as female? i don't see the issue here. it's a pretty clear cut case of discrimination because of a person's medical history.

should we disqualify women who have chromosomal disorders or health issues that hider reproduction, because they are clearly not REAL WOMEN

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maybe, lol

Of course, I find the completely superficial concept of beauty touted by these pageants demeaning to both women and men and it just kind of grosses me out in general, but seriously, if she looks pretty, and she does, I just don't get why anything else matters. That's what they're being judged on. Their looks. If she were an ugly transgendered woman, would she not get in? Yep. If she were an ugly natural-born woman, would she not get in? Yep. I have no issue with that, except that judging people based on looks is both stupid and creepy. I just find it bizarre as hell that they're turning down a transgendered woman who does look pretty, when they don't give a s*** about natural-born women who have had work done on their body. It's a completely different kind of superficiality that doesn't even make sense to me.

I'm not sure where this discussion is right now, but I'd like to remind everyone once more that there is no rule stating that one must have been born a biological female in order to enter the contest the rule simply doesn't exist on the entry form. When they say that she lied on her application, they're referring to the fact she that calls herself a female.

Miss Universe Canada contestants must meet a basic requirement of being a Canadian citizen and between the ages of 18 and 27 to compete.

They also must not be married, pregnant, and have to fill out a more comprehensive form if they meet the basic requirements.

There is no mention of rules regarding sex-changes or cosmetic surgery.


This is why there is an outrage. Not because she tried to worm her way into a competition that bans people who have had sexual reassignment surgery.

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I'm not sure where this discussion is right now, but I'd like to remind everyone once more that there is no rule stating that one must have been born a biological female in order to enter the contest the rule simply doesn't exist on the entry form. When they say that she lied on her application, they're referring to the fact she that calls herself a female.

Well, this certainly makes things more questionable. You could argue that lying deserves a DQ, but it's also pretty clear that they're doing this only because viewers will be uncomfortable with her transgendered status.

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KJH posted...
Man, the word discrimination seems to be thrown around too much these days. It's like it's lost all meaning.

You're right, transgender people don't face discrimination at all.

...Wait, maybe I should crosscheck that with Google first. Let's see...the top result is just the list of the 16/50 states that have discrimination laws for transgender. The next result is...

http://transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_prelim_survey_econ.pdf

Oh.

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thundersheep posted...
I'm not sure where this discussion is right now, but I'd like to remind everyone once more that there is no rule stating that one must have been born a biological female in order to enter the contest the rule simply doesn't exist on the entry form. When they say that she lied on her application, they're referring to the fact she that calls herself a female.


Actually, we don't know if it's an actual rule or not. Just as many sources say it is as there are that say it's not. And then you have sites like CNN that say "Well, the organization says it's a rule, but it's not listed on the website, so... We dunno?"

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Kinglicious posted...
I swear some of you love to overcomplicate things. They don't care what the gender is, just the sex. It's pretty damn new since the distinction started becoming known, but the bottom line and simplest standard to use in this and many, many other fields is what your crotch had originally. If a contestant felt she was a man but was born a woman nobody would bat an eye.

Really?

Really?

You think nobody would bat an eye if a transman entered a beauty pageant? Have you actually SEEN a transman?






I think people would notice.

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i hate these topics

a lot

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If they had the operation/had a legal sex change why shouldn't they be recognized as female? i don't see the issue here. it's a pretty clear cut case of discrimination because of a person's medical history.

Why does a "sex change" matter? You don't need surgery to be transgendered. Not to mention, that seems like a loaded phrase in the first place that seems to promote that a transgendered person needs to surgically alter themselves in order to be recognized as identifying themselves as the other gender.

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From: Biolizard28 | #251
What kind of logic is this?

"That rule is stupid and unfair, but you'd better follow it."

sounds about right

dq is fair

change the rule after the contest

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SuperNiceDog barked up the right tree.

...uh, obviously if they're ugly women they won't qualify. same way as if it were an ugly guy-to-girl it wouldn't qualify. if there were someone born female who felt like she was a man but still had the necessary attractiveness to join this sort of contest? no, nobody would bat an eye. she would instead be labeled tomboyish. now how or why you felt the need to point out that yes some instances look like dudes, in a similar way to how this guy turned to a girl, i don't know, but that's completely ignoring what was actually said.


and editing this to make it even more painfully clear.
i never said 'hey what if a girl had a sex change operation.' i never said 'hey what if she took enough testosterone to grow a beard that'd make a lumberjack weep.'
i said if a woman felt she was a man. which you can only infer as exactly what it said, what if there was a woman who felt that her gender is not the sex she is.
we're talking about a beauty contest. obviously she would need to be able to qualify.

and nobody running this would go 'oh god we can't do that' because nobody running this would care. woman by birth? check. attractive? check. and you're set.


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Wanglicious posted...
i said if a woman felt she was a man. which you can only infer as exactly what it said, what if there was a woman who felt that her gender is not the sex she is.


Well, for starters, if this person is truely male-identified, then we should be referring to him as "he", not "she".

Second, if this person is openly male identified, chances are he has no interest in entering a beauty pageant--most transmen I've met have a healthy distaste for stereo-typically feminine things (although granted, most transmen I've met also used to be butch lesbians). There are exceptions to every rule, granted--I've known some femmes who became transmen (much to the surprise of everyone around them)--so sure, I guess it could happen.

Wanglicious posted...
i never said 'hey what if a girl had a sex change operation.' i never said 'hey what if she took enough testosterone to grow a beard that'd make a lumberjack weep.'


Well, right.

I suppose my point is that we should differentiate between gender-identified and transexual.

I know there are people in this topic arguing "oh, it should be the personal identification". But I wouldn't be overly offended if it was "do you have a vagina right now? Ok, you're eligible." Although...that's still somewhat problematic as I've known some non-operative transmen with lumberjack beards.

Hmm...since it's about looks, why not just a simple "Is the gender you present to the world female? Ok, you're eligible." This would neatly handle pre-operative and non-operative cases in relatively sensible ways.

Which, yeah, I guess would mean that FTMs who identify male, but haven't started dressing male/taking hormones would be eligible. (And similarly, MTFs who identify female, but haven't started dressing female/taking hormones would not be eligible). Hmm......yeah, if you have to pick one of those two to corner cases to include in the pageant, I suppose FtMs who haven't started transitioning yet would be the correct subset?

I'm certainly big on symmetry, though. If your rule is "genetalia at birth" then transmen with lumberjack beards would be eligible (which would be dumb).

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jdizzy156 posted...
That's horrifying, you cant even tell now a days...

I was thinking that, but then to be honest, if i tapped that, and then found out after she was born a man... I honestly would still be pretty chuffed with myself, because she is HOT.

I dont really care about the whole ruling thing. If it clearly states that they have to be born a woman then fair enough, but that was probably an old ruling thats never been changed. For the years to come they should probably think about updating and changing it so transgenders can potentially apply.

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UltimaterializerX posted...
You went from liking girls to hating them all in one day

ACTUALLY, Vlado is a loyal every day voter in The Babes Contest, and probably one of the most opinionated about certain match ups, so he cant hate women that much, unless he just views them as sexual objects now, which im sure he doesn't... but whatever.

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i hate these topics

a lot

May I ask what you mean by "these topics"? I don't think we frequently have topics with 280+-posts-arguments on women who've undergone a sex change.

Also the chick should've said:

"SCREW THE RULES, I HAVE BOOBIES!"

lololololol

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honestly when you start trying to break down to 'hmmm well these should count because of their gender....' i see it as you're just overcomplicating it to shoehorn your ideals. it isn't just 'from birth,' but through today. what sex have you been? if it's female, you're done. if at any point it's male, you're also done. straightforward and simple. getting gender involved with anything is a mess and just plain not worth it if you're a beauty contest or a bunch of different fields. sex is straightforward: two options with simple physical proof that doesn't get into what people think, but what they physically are. there's no confusion. sex is also what the contests are all about because seriously, they really couldn't care about gender, at all. the instant they do they open a can of worms and have to start thinking of social norms, medical procedures, etc. as opposed to 'do you have a dick? did you used to have a dick? okay then.'

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You people are f***ing terrible.

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KJH posted...
Why does a "sex change" matter? You don't need surgery to be transgendered. Not to mention, that seems like a loaded phrase in the first place that seems to promote that a transgendered person needs to surgically alter themselves in order to be recognized as identifying themselves as the other gender.

I never said that you need surgery to be transgendered. I'm asking what's the justification to disqualify her when she physically resembles a female AND is legally recognized as female. Where is the logic in this ruling.

I don't think you need surgery to be transgender, but in the eyes of the law, it's different. If she was pre-op, people would just be presenting that fact as proper justification for her disqualification

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maybe, lol

I'm curious as to everyone who is hating on this topic what there point of view is.


On a side note, I think comfortableness of international viewers is a very real concern for the pageant. If the pageant has half the world stop participating because they allowed a transgendered individual to compete then I think it makes sense for them to simply not allow transgendered individuals.

I have no idea what the real effect would be of course, but I think it is something you have to consider. You can't just bomb businesses because they don't allow every individual.


you could make the same argument about race I would suppose, but race is a uniformally more accepted measure, and everyone believes that you are born with a race while many people believe that you are not born with a gender, especially when surgery is involved,


Just something to think about I guess

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masterplum posted...
you could make the same argument about race I would suppose, but race is a uniformally more accepted measure

Actually, black people were not allowed in beauty pageants for quite a while. The only reason they're "uniformally more accepted" because of the civil rights movements and various other movements that fought for equality.

And even then, there is still a lot of racism going on even today. People still feel uncomfortable around blacks, asians, etc. and do not like them in their businesses, media, or beauty pageants.

That doesn't mean we should try to accomodate their racist, sexist, or bigoted opinions.

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maybe, lol

That doesn't mean we should try to accomodate their racist, sexist, or bigoted opinions.

I don't understand why people keep framing it this way

we don't run beauty pageants. unless you feel that the government should step in and force pageants to let transgendered people compete, this isn't some sort of "what society should do" sort of things. it's a pageant which is appealing to an audience and is probably doing so accurately to the wants of the viewership it carries.

if you people want stuff like this to go away, convince people that you know that transgendered people are legit and that we should treat them as the gender they identify with in every way. when pageants have a viewership that digs transgendered people they won't make decisions like this.

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OmarsComin says...
if you people want stuff like this to go away, convince people that you know that transgendered people are legit and that we should treat them as the gender they identify with in every way.

and letting the canadian miss universe finalist participate would have been a fine way to do this.

it is ultimately their organization and decision, yes. but that doesn't exempt them or their viewers from ridicule due to their regressive opinions/decisions.

i mean, in theory, if africans made their audience 'uncomfortable' they're free to appeal to their viewers by disqualifying black people, but that wouldn't mean it's not laughably dumb and racist. and this has happened before, in the same industry even.

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maybe, lol

Wanglicious posted...
honestly when you start trying to break down to 'hmmm well these should count because of their gender....' i see it as you're just overcomplicating it to shoehorn your ideals. it isn't just 'from birth,' but through today. what sex have you been? if it's female, you're done. if at any point it's male, you're also done. straightforward and simple. getting gender involved with anything is a mess and just plain not worth it if you're a beauty contest or a bunch of different fields. sex is straightforward: two options with simple physical proof that doesn't get into what people think, but what they physically are. there's no confusion. sex is also what the contests are all about because seriously, they really couldn't care about gender, at all. the instant they do they open a can of worms and have to start thinking of social norms, medical procedures, etc. as opposed to 'do you have a dick? did you used to have a dick? okay then.'

Two problems:

First, the lack of symmetry means you're saying "all transexuals need not apply". It's pretty similar to saying "If we find out you're gay, we're disqualifying you" or "left-handed people will be kicked out." You're making a contest that 50% of the population can participate in...and then throwing out 1% of the population (that also happens to be a heavily discriminated group).

Second, "do you have a dick? Did you used to have a dick?" fails the "transman with a lumberjack beard" test. I've known plenty of people who've never had a dick who are balding with facial hair. So...your rule still has a major loophole.

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Holy hell i disagree with SEP and agree with Ulti this hasn't happened since like 2004.

On a side note, in a board full of very smart people, MC keeps blowing them away intelligence wise. Her posts take everything I want to say but in a much more intelligent way, backed up with data! <3

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From: Galaxy-Man | #292
i mean, in theory, if africans made their audience 'uncomfortable' they're free to appeal to their viewers by disqualifying black people, but that wouldn't mean it's not laughably dumb and racist. and this has happened before, in the same industry even.

the scope of these two scenarios is not the same, as I outlined previously

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the scope of these two scenarios is not the same, as I outlined previously

I'm not sure how that's relevant, though. Do you think it's more acceptable to discriminate against genders than races?

As I said before, many people don't view transgendered individuals as more then a lifestyle choice, and hence they feel it is acceptable to discriminate against people that chose their lifestyle as opposed to being unable to choose their race.

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Not at all sure what you mean by lacking symmetry there, it's a pretty clean and straight divide. Born female, still female, done. Born male, not done, it by default is cutting half the population. Sex change to male, done too. Simple and straight.

And nothing would exclude a lumberjill if she is still biologically female either officially, so she'd need match the same standard that the other females take on. Hardly seems like a loophole.

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Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.

As I said before, many people don't view transgendered individuals as more then a lifestyle choice, and hence they feel it is acceptable to discriminate against people that chose their lifestyle as opposed to being unable to choose their race.

I was asking what you think about this, not "many people".

masterplum posted...
As I said before, many people don't view transgendered individuals as more then a lifestyle choice, and hence they feel it is acceptable to discriminate against people that chose their lifestyle as opposed to being unable to choose their race.

What they think doesn't matter. Many people think black people are unevolved apes, does that make it okay for them to be racist? No, because the science shows that they are indeed human.

Science shows that transgendered individuals are the gender they identify with.

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