Board 8 > C/D: The standard 40-hour workweek = nonexistent work-life balance

(+) Yeah! (+)

C. My wife and I only work part time and I wouldn't do it any other way. The times I've worked full time sucked. I don't know how anybody does it while staying in shape and having time to do the things they like.

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Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2009/0514/sweden-hardly-a-socialist-nightmare

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SubDeity wants to vote for Calvin Coolidge. [Evil Republican]
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Startup founder? Take out the 0.01% chance they might be the next "Draw Something" or Instagram, who'd be willing to work those hours?

Before I say anything else: What would you take as evidence that someone would be willing to work those hours? People who say that they were happy working those hours? People who said that their lives got better with more hours? People who said that they were stressed, but satisfied working those hours?

People generally don't work harder than their peers purely out of altruism or "passion." Otherwise, socialism wouldn't have failed.

That doesn't necessarily hold. Just because people generally don't work harder than their peers purely out of altruism or passion doesn't mean that there isn't a significant minority who would. Or hell, to break it down even further, just because socialism failed doesn't mean that altruism or passion can't exist in nonsocialist systems: It could be that other economic systems are just as good or better at reinforcing those behaviors.

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SubDeity posted...
Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2009/0514/sweden-hardly-a-socialist-nightmare

LOL

If that article is your source of information, there's no need for further discussion.

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ITT Vlado doesn't know what the Christian Science Monitor is.

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SubDeity wants to vote for Calvin Coolidge. [Evil Republican]
Play Der Langrisser.

It's nice to see that the spirit of intellectual curiosity and openmindedness remains alive and well in political discussions, where the bountiful, free flow of high quality information floods out the demons of ignorance and propaganda.

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SubDeity posted...
ITT Vlado doesn't know what the Christian Science Monitor is.

True, I don't. I guess you then posted something stupid to support my point, then. Thanks! :)

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Hint: The Christian Science Monitor is a really good news source and certainly more reliable than, say, taking a poll of 30 people on a website and trying to extrapolate to an entire country.

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SubDeity wants to vote for Calvin Coolidge. [Evil Republican]
Play Der Langrisser.

xfd

Here is something approximately a million times more reliable. It's even got charts so that you can comprehend more easily!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_welfare_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

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From: Boo_Mario | #099
Just WHO are all these people working 60+ hour weeks? What are their occupations?

Investment banker? Take out the 1% chance they might make it all the way to Managing Director/Partner and start raking in 7 figures a year, who'd be willing to work those hours?

Startup founder? Take out the 0.01% chance they might be the next "Draw Something" or Instagram, who'd be willing to work those hours?

People generally don't work harder than their peers purely out of altruism or "passion." Otherwise, socialism wouldn't have failed.

Do you have absolutely no clue about the working world?


My dad works for an oil company and often has to work those kinds of hours. He used to be a truck driver and worked crazy hours like that all the time.

My brother works in construction and does those kinds of hours.


I used to be a door to door salesman and I worked those kinds of hours easily. I'd work noon to 9pm monday to friday, and 9 am to 9pm on saturdays.


My cousin runs a yard that a few of my other cousins are working at where they are paid by how many palettes they build. Takes an hour to make one. Paid $22 per palette, or 30 if they make 10 in one day. They always make 10 in a day because why wouldn't they for such a big boost, they work minimum 4 out of every 8 days, but usually work 6.

So yes, these kinds of hours, 60+ a week, are not uncommon and 40 hours IS the cushy alternative.

I mean I graduated with an accounting degree recently and I'm still figuring out how I want to take my career. If I go a certain path, I'll be working 50-60 hours during busy tax season (though probably only 30-40 in off time like summer), plus lots of out of work studying. Or I could take a more standard book keeping kind of career with just a standard 37-40 hours a week. That would pretty much be a breeze.




It's so sad to see you guys seriously arguing that it's a lot.

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It's not sad. Working extra hours is not necessarily bad, we're just saying that it doesn't give you much room for personal life. You make your choice, if you need that extra money, more power to you. We're just discussing about whether the limitations are worth it, and in what cases.

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It's so sad you guys are discussing what foods you like.

There are people starving everywhere that would love to eat anything.

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Yeah this topic is pretty much full of people who have never had a real job and don't know how society works.

The kind of mentality these lazy slobs in here display are why the economy is receding, FYI. Enjoy being a burden on society.

Vlado posted...
Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

Scandinavian countries are hardly socialist in the strict sense of the word though; they are open, free-market, capitalist societies before anything else. They just have a big state that redistributes wealth heavily, mostly because they are so rich.

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Swarles_Barkley posted...
Vlado posted...
Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

Scandinavian countries are hardly socialist in the strict sense of the word though; they are open, free-market, capitalist societies before anything else. They just have a big state that redistributes wealth heavily, mostly because they are so rich.

And what is the "strict sense of the word"? I know many Americans use "socialist" as an insult, but that's because they don't know any better.

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D: I work 40 hours a week at my standard job. Then another 20 or so hours outside of work to do other side gigs as well. I am able to be with my gf 5 days a week minimum and I enjoy my weekends.

My former step dad works 70-80 hours a week and took care of his family. He then worked 40 hours and wondered what the hell is he supposed to do with his spare time, he had way to much time.

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KingButz posted...
What was my point earlier? I've already forgotten.

I do think that a lot of modern chores are invented, though. Before lawn mowers, did many people have grass lawns? Were there a lot of carpets in homes before the vacuum cleaner? I think a lot of these chores exist because we have the tools to address them. Nobody wanted a grass lawn without an effective way to maintain it (lawn mower invented in the nineteenth century).

I don't know where I'm going with this.

That people from yesteryear had to work more hours so we should feel lucky. I don't disagree with that notion, but I did notice the original post mentioned chores.

The difference between a modern lawn mower and a reel mower is significant. I own both... the reel mower takers hours, and has to be maintained after every mow, and it's all powered by the man pushing it. You also have to rake up the grass trimmings. A modern mower at a minimum will cut the grass with its own effort and for a few extra bucks will propel itself and bag grass.

This goes along with other chores, doing dishes, laundry, keeping your domain clean, etc. I kinda think this might be overlooked - it's okay to work less hours because everything also takes less time and there's more to do.

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Yeah this topic is pretty much full of people who have never had a real job and don't know how society works.

The kind of mentality these lazy slobs in here display are why the economy is receding, FYI. Enjoy being a burden on society.

you are a burden on me reading topics

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From: neonreaper | #117
That people from yesteryear had to work more hours so we should feel lucky. I don't disagree with that notion, but I did notice the original post mentioned chores.

The difference between a modern lawn mower and a reel mower is significant. I own both... the reel mower takers hours, and has to be maintained after every mow, and it's all powered by the man pushing it. You also have to rake up the grass trimmings. A modern mower at a minimum will cut the grass with its own effort and for a few extra bucks will propel itself and bag grass.

This goes along with other chores, doing dishes, laundry, keeping your domain clean, etc. I kinda think this might be overlooked - it's okay to work less hours because everything also takes less time and there's more to do.

Oh I certainly agree that it's ok to work less hours if you can. I hope to never have more than a 40 hour work week once I finally get onto my career. But you have to admit that even with a 40 hour work week +chores, there is ample time for recreation. It may not be every day, but certainly on weekends.

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Boo_Mario posted...
Otherwise, every programming job should have a work-from-home option, at least for non-critical dates (meetings, performance reviews, etc.) If you can get your job done, why do you have to show up in the office in a suit (or business casual attire) when doing so actually reduces your productivity (being neatly dressed won't help you code better.) Even meetings can be scheduled via teleconferencing. And there's always the threat of being fired if you underperform.

In the past IBM gave nearly all of its software engineers the work-from-home option. It's a shame newer IBM offices and other companies don't offer the same choices/benefits.

As for labour/hourly wage jobs, there's absolutely zero incentive to be productive because you get paid the same anyway. When I used to volunteer at a library for junior high school (LOL), I would sort/shelve 2X as many books as the slowest guy. Not only was I not compensated for it, I got assigned more work for the same # of hours, so by the end of my internship I slowed my pace down to be in line with everyone else's.

None of this sounds like it comes from the mindset of being a motivated employee. Your library job is a good example - you don't perform better and demand more, you just work less.

From an employer's point of view, think about it this way - if you can 'get the job done' in less than 8 hours per day, you should also be doing other jobs to fill those 8 hours. You should be looking for work, your productive little fingers should be eager for the next assignment.

An employee with the mindset that you describe shouldn't expect more benefits, such as working from home, and having flexible work day lengths.

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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.

40 hours isn't bad. everyone wants to work less but it's not like you're a tortured, overworked soul if you work 8:30-5.

yesterday, I woke up, got ready, brought my babe to preschool, worked 8 hours, picked her up, had some people over, put her to bed, watched a movie with the wife and then watched a full basketball game before bed. if that's a lack of time to you then so be it, but it was fine for me.

the key is to enjoy your worktime. I'm here being paid to read this topic, for instance. work isn't torture for me.

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Vlado posted...
Swarles_Barkley posted...
Vlado posted...
Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

Scandinavian countries are hardly socialist in the strict sense of the word though; they are open, free-market, capitalist societies before anything else. They just have a big state that redistributes wealth heavily, mostly because they are so rich.

And what is the "strict sense of the word"? I know many Americans use "socialist" as an insult, but that's because they don't know any better.

The strict sense of the word would be full equality -- that is redistribution of wealth to the point where everybody is equally rich/poor. Exact socialism is very different from the system in the Scandinavian countries because, much like communism, it essentially takes away all incentives to work hard or to work in a demanding environment.

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He who seeks in freedom anything other than freedom itself is made to serve.

The key really is to find work you can enjoy, and that may take practice. My job doesn't thrill me, but I have learned to like what I am doing now and get fulfillment from it, even though I know this isn't my first choice of work.

Although I spend 10 hours each day at work or commuting to/from, I don't mind because work is enjoyable for me. I've only ever had one job that I couldn't really stand.

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Vlado, how did you get to learn so much about America? You're practically an expert.

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Vlado posted...
xfd

Here is something approximately a million times more reliable. It's even got charts so that you can comprehend more easily!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_welfare_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Sweden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Hey, Vlado, instead of posting meaningless links like an idiot, how about you demonstrate how any of those indicate that Sweden is a socialist country. For example, your link for education in Sweden reveals that Sweden has incredibly open laws for the establishment of charter and for-profit schools.

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SubDeity wants to vote for Calvin Coolidge. [Evil Republican]
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SubDeity posted...
Hey, Vlado, instead of posting meaningless links like an idiot, how about you demonstrate how any of those indicate that Sweden is a socialist country. For example, your link for education in Sweden reveals that Sweden has incredibly open laws for the establishment of charter and for-profit schools.

Maybe you don't understand journalism?

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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
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Swarles_Barkley posted...
Vlado posted...
Swarles_Barkley posted...
Vlado posted...
Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

Scandinavian countries are hardly socialist in the strict sense of the word though; they are open, free-market, capitalist societies before anything else. They just have a big state that redistributes wealth heavily, mostly because they are so rich.

And what is the "strict sense of the word"? I know many Americans use "socialist" as an insult, but that's because they don't know any better.

The strict sense of the word would be full equality -- that is redistribution of wealth to the point where everybody is equally rich/poor. Exact socialism is very different from the system in the Scandinavian countries because, much like communism, it essentially takes away all incentives to work hard or to work in a demanding environment.

That's total bulls***. Socialism and communism are quite different. Read more books.

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neonreaper posted...
SubDeity posted...
Hey, Vlado, instead of posting meaningless links like an idiot, how about you demonstrate how any of those indicate that Sweden is a socialist country. For example, your link for education in Sweden reveals that Sweden has incredibly open laws for the establishment of charter and for-profit schools.

Maybe you don't understand journalism?

I don't know what journalism has to do with Wikipedia. It does have something to do with the Christian Science Monitor, which has won a bunch of awards for top-notch work, something Wikipedia can't be accused of.

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SubDeity wants to vote for Calvin Coolidge. [Evil Republican]
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Can someone explain why a personal pan pizza from Pizza Hut is like $15 (and why everything else is also overpriced) in Scandinavia?

Seems like an awful place to live imo

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SubDeity posted...
I don't know what journalism has to do with Wikipedia. .

Well yeah I suspected as much =P

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SubDeity posted...
Hey, Vlado, instead of posting meaningless links like an idiot, how about you demonstrate how any of those indicate that Sweden is a socialist country. For example, your link for education in Sweden reveals that Sweden has incredibly open laws for the establishment of charter and for-profit schools.

Grasping at straws, are we now? Of course Sweden isn't completely socialist (no extreme works in the real world), but the government there takes great care of its citizens and redistributes wealth, helping make the average person's quality of life much better than anywhere else.

The point is that certain socialist policies can benefit a society greatly - something republicans would hate to admit. :)

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Grasping at straws, are we now? Of course Sweden isn't completely socialist (no extreme works in the real world), but the government there takes great care of its citizens and redistributes wealth, helping make the average person's quality of life much better than anywhere else.

Whoops, looks like you aren't aware of what socialism is!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

Sweden merely has significant social welfare policies, which are not at all the same thing!

Also, I don't see how it's grasping at straws to point out that at least 1/5 of your links actually make the opposite point of what you think they do.

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Mozzezz posted...
One of the biggest chores (though I admit it's still some what fun) that hasn't been mentioned yet, is maintaining your computer and other electronic devices you have, including keeping up with whatever the newest technology is. Once you factor that in along with all other chores and everything else, 40 hours really isn't doable. People have mentioned this in here all ready, but building your own skills, which include learning about various electronics, is very important, and neglecting that is a mistake. It's not everyone, but a good portion of the time when people are working 60-80 hours a week, they made extremely bad life decisions, then try to impose what they do on everyone else. Games and other entertainment also do have value, and you can't simply dismiss them as "game and entertainment".

can you weigh in on the awesome debate Subdiety and Vlado are having? please

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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.

One of the biggest chores (though I admit it's still some what fun) that hasn't been mentioned yet, is maintaining your computer (or computers) and other electronic devices you have, including keeping up with whatever the newest technology is. Once you factor that in along with all other chores and everything else, 40 hours really isn't doable. People have mentioned this in here all ready, but building your own skills, which could (and probably usually should) include learning about various electronics, is very important, and neglecting that is a mistake. It's not everyone, but a good portion of the time when people are working 60-80 hours a week, they made extremely bad life decisions, then try to impose what they do on everyone else. Games and other entertainment also do have value, and you can't simply dismiss them as "game and entertainment".

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You know, it's funny reading through this topic because this is the exact same argument my mother made in court as to why she couldn't work a 40 hour a week job.

And that's why my dad has to pay her $1500 a month alimony.

hooray

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neonreaper posted...
Mozzezz posted...
One of the biggest chores (though I admit it's still some what fun) that hasn't been mentioned yet, is maintaining your computer and other electronic devices you have, including keeping up with whatever the newest technology is. Once you factor that in along with all other chores and everything else, 40 hours really isn't doable. People have mentioned this in here all ready, but building your own skills, which include learning about various electronics, is very important, and neglecting that is a mistake. It's not everyone, but a good portion of the time when people are working 60-80 hours a week, they made extremely bad life decisions, then try to impose what they do on everyone else. Games and other entertainment also do have value, and you can't simply dismiss them as "game and entertainment".

can you weigh in on the awesome debate Subdiety and Vlado are having? please

I don't know enough about those countries to say exactly what they are (and only skimmed his Wikipedia links, Wikipedia should be trusted most of the time btw). I should probably read up on it more, but from what I know Socialism and Communism are pretty different. Also, giving to things like charity could be viewed as selfish, since you're supporting people who may later or directly help you. It also gets really tricky with how much money you should actually force to be redistributed in a system because it's very hard to draw the line of what are actually needs and wants (really impossible cause all wants help you in some way unless you make a mistake, and many of them can really matter). The system we have in the US isn't bad, I would say more should probably go to basic health care, but they need to be very careful with how they do it because I could see it easily being exploited. Obama never should have implemented universal health care basically for only children, it gives too much incentive for people to just go and have babies in bad situations.

Also, you can skip showers to a certain degree without negative consequences, I know someone who asked a doctor about it, besides personally doing it, so sometimes getting cleaned up for the work day will actually take away time from you that normally wouldn't be taken away, especially if you have a job that requires you to do things like shave, which definitely can skipped if needed.

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Good to know that if my job requires me to shave, I don't need to do it.

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Mozzezz... so hobbies like keeping up on new electronics are required but stuff like showering and shaving can be skipped?

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i would like to know what a typical week for mozzezz consists of

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Vlado posted...
Swarles_Barkley posted...
Vlado posted...
Swarles_Barkley posted...
Vlado posted...
Newsflash: socialism hasn't failed, quite the opposite. Example: Scandinavian countries.

Scandinavian countries are hardly socialist in the strict sense of the word though; they are open, free-market, capitalist societies before anything else. They just have a big state that redistributes wealth heavily, mostly because they are so rich.

And what is the "strict sense of the word"? I know many Americans use "socialist" as an insult, but that's because they don't know any better.

The strict sense of the word would be full equality -- that is redistribution of wealth to the point where everybody is equally rich/poor. Exact socialism is very different from the system in the Scandinavian countries because, much like communism, it essentially takes away all incentives to work hard or to work in a demanding environment.

That's total bulls***. Socialism and communism are quite different. Read more books.

Where did I say they were the same? I very well know the difference between communism and socialism, thank you.

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CoolCly posted...
Mozzezz... so hobbies like keeping up on new electronics are required but stuff like showering and shaving can be skipped?

Unless you go for months on end without doing it, yes I would say keeping up with electronics is more important then both of those things. Remember, cowboys and other various people from the past would spread out their baths, and usually take long ones,

edit*=but more then likely take less time overall.

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Vlado posted...
SubDeity posted...
Hey, Vlado, instead of posting meaningless links like an idiot, how about you demonstrate how any of those indicate that Sweden is a socialist country. For example, your link for education in Sweden reveals that Sweden has incredibly open laws for the establishment of charter and for-profit schools.

Grasping at straws, are we now? Of course Sweden isn't completely socialist (no extreme works in the real world), but the government there takes great care of its citizens and redistributes wealth, helping make the average person's quality of life much better than anywhere else.

The point is that certain socialist policies can benefit a society greatly - something republicans would hate to admit. :)

Why do you conclude that these socialist policies are better, though? Yes, Sweden has huge wealth redistribution. They have higher unemployment benefits and lower income inequality. You assume these are all good things. Why? I value the US' freedom and fierce meritocratic system.

A recent survey shows US people are, on average, a lot happier than their - comparably wealthy but more socialist - European counterparts.

http://www.economist.com/node/21548213

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Keeping up with electronics on a weekly basis is not a requirement, it's a hobby.

That being a requirement is like saying it's a requirement to keep up on every political and business move going on. Is it a good thing to keep informed? Maybe. But no, the business articles I read are a hobby, and the electronic info you keep up with are likewise.

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Sir Cobain posted...
i would like to know what a typical week for mozzezz consists of

Many of the things I mentioned in my posts. Some of the skills I've gained besides just computers and electronics (though some of this stuff still kind of has that in there) have included learning to snake the main in my front lawn, learning various things about my car, learning how to take apart my pool pump, many things about politics, and a bunch of other subjects I don't feel like remembering right now. I've also had my fair share of jobs, but it has been awhile since I've been employed.

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Reminder to self: Don't approach Mozzezz for fear of a foul odor

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CoolCly posted...
Keeping up with electronics on a weekly basis is not a requirement, it's a hobby.

That being a requirement is like saying it's a requirement to keep up on every political and business move going on. Is it a good thing to keep informed? Maybe. But no, the business articles I read are a hobby, and the electronic info you keep up with are likewise.

So in 2012 computers and cell phones aren't yet considered a necessity? It's also usually much cheaper and convenient to do the work yourself for PCs, which includes things like weeding out viruses manually since antiviruses don't get them all and you don't want to always have to reformat (which requires keeping up with them), reformatting them, updating and tweaking software, and building your own PC. Also, laptops are fairly different then desktops, both the hardware and software, and take even more knowledge to manage them. The time for this stuff can't really be viewed as a weekly thing either, it's probably better viewed on the scale of a year.

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Well I'm personally not too surprised that someone whose claim to fame is parting a large body of water isn't big on bathing.

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Much of this country fell into a mindset that you have to work a standard 40 hour a week job and are somehow entitled to something for doing it, while at the same time biting the heads off of people who either said or did other wise, that's why a good portion of it is falling apart. If you want to work like that good for you, but don't attack entrepreneurs and other various people who don't follow suit.

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