Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Vergil/Kirby/The Lich King vs. The Boss/Wrex/Archer/ Ridley/Nephalem

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd say he's tankier than all of those, yes.

And in a fair fight, sure, Wrex would probably be enough but LK with many worlds flips things back to being unfair.
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Arthas isn't tankier than those but what he is is much more efficient at pinning targets down. Those guys don't have 'point and click' roots and stuns to close in on the Nephalem. He can also just flatly kill Neph no matter what with Infest. There's no healing on her team so she'll just start taking very high and constantly increasing damage over time until she dies. I'd take Arthas>Neph solo pretty much every time for this reason. Hard to argue with 'you need to win a DPS race against a raidboss from full while having none of his beef'.
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redrocket_pub posted...

She's quite the match for the Lich King, and Wrex as backup just makes it unfair.

A match for Lich King if he didn't know every move she would/could attempt to make

I think that gets underestimated. Anyone ever see that shitty Nicholas Cage movie Next? Think that.

Or for a better example, Groundhog Day. Spoilers, Bill Murray lives the same day over and over to the point where he knows exactly everything that will or can happen that day, to the second, and becomes all but a superhero because of it. And that's just a normal guy, nowhere near as intelligent or threatening as Lich.

Lich King basically has unlimited experience with this exact matchup from seeing it many, many, many times before.
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"Raid Boss" is a game mechanic that means nothing here. Diablo and Maltheas would also be raid bosses in their own right. And roots and stuns? LOL. Neph has Smoke Screen that lets her continualy break those and Vault to maintain distance.
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redrocket_pub posted...

"Raid Boss" is a game mechanic that means nothing here. Diablo and Maltheas would also be raid bosses in their own right. And roots and stuns? LOL. Neph has Smoke Screen that lets her continualy break those and Vault to maintain distance.

Was I citing game mechanics anywhere? No? Then don't argue about that. When I say 'you're trying to DPS race a raid boss', what it means is you're trying to fight someone who is intensely, massively tanky and don't have the DPS to down them. Which Neph doesn't. Infest puts her on a timer - let's say she's much, much tankier than a WoW character. A WoW character will die to Infest in some 20 seconds. Neph has...maybe a minute, minute 30 to kill Arthas, optimistically? And I don't buy her doing that because Arthas is very beefy. Set him around Diablo's ballpark. Diablo takes 8-10 minutes to die under concentrated fire. Even if Arthas is not as tanky as Diablo, there's a 0% chance Neph outraces Infest. There's just nothing to argue about that matchup, especially with Arthas knowing it's an optimal move from redoing the fight many times over. So Neph vs Arthas shouldn't be in doubt.

The question then becomes, who wins the sky clash and the Archer vs Vergil match? Archer can probably kill Arthas, and Ridley is tanky enough if he survives in good health to take Arthas down eventually, but other people are kinda shit outta luck there.
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Knowing the future is one thing but changing it is another. He still has the same actual combat abilities. This is where Wrex comes in. He can't perfectly counter everything that both of them are doing all the time.
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redrocket_pub posted...

Knowing the future is one thing but changing it is another. He still has the same actual combat abilities. This is where Wrex comes in. He can't perfectly counter everything that both of them are doing all the time.

Which part of 'a single cast, fire and forget damage over time spell, WILL kill Nephalem 100% of the time before she's killed Arthas' was unclear

Wrex is slow and immobile. Arthas can use him to heal himself with Death Coil, honestly, which heals him for about 10% of his max HP every 9 seconds. Wrex would be better suited trying to help Archer against Vergil, but it's not a given that he will do that, especially with Arthas knowing how to handle the fight against this team.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

The question then becomes, who wins the sky clash and the Archer vs Vergil match?

This is interesting because I think Archer is the real Arwing counter here. I'm reasonably confident that Archer > Arwing in a vacuum.

But then the question is, who's dealing with Vergil?
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Drakeryn posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

The question then becomes, who wins the sky clash and the Archer vs Vergil match?

This is interesting because I think Archer is the real Arwing counter here. I'm reasonably confident that Archer > Arwing in a vacuum.

But then the question is, who's dealing with Vergil?

Which is a very important question because Vergil absolutely ginsus Wrex, Ridley and The Boss. I would literally take him to 1v3 those guys without much doubt. Archer really is kinda needed on Arthas or Vergil with Neph taking the other. Anything else ends very poorly for the enemy team.
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Which part of 'a single cast, fire and forget damage over time spell, WILL kill Nephalem 100% of the time before she's killed Arthas' was unclear

100% in your personal interp sure. Let's not act like this is an objective fact though :)

Wrex is slow and immobile. Arthas can use him to heal himself with Death Coil, honestly, which heals him for about 10% of his max HP every 9 seconds. Wrex would be better suited trying to help Archer against Vergil, but it's not a given that he will do that, especially with Arthas knowing how to handle the fight against this team.

Slow and immobile, maybe, but his attacks are all ranged so it's not like that neuters him entirely.
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I think i woule side with team ridley here but my vote doesnt count
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(and incidentally, I pretty much think this is what swings the match. You need to ask yourself if you think Vergil dies before Arthas' Infest + any other attacks he can land kill his opponent. If the answer's no you vote for Team Vergil, if the answer's yes then Team Archer is a pretty strong lock IMO. That's about the size of this matchup.)
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actually now, Archer>Kirby
Vergil>Wrex and friend

leads to the aforementioned Vergil vs Arhcer anyway
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I also feel fairly confident Archer could snipe the arwing but i may be alone here i admit.
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100% in your personal interp sure. Let's not act like this is an objective fact though :)

Do you have an actual counterargument? Because the text of Infest is 'inflicts increasingly higher Shadow damage to all enemies within 60 yards until the target is healed above 90% of their maximum HP'. I look at your team and it has absolutely no healing (nor dispelling abilities for that matter). The onus is on you to prove Infest won't eventually just flat out kill whoever's fighting Arthas without him having to do anything else. After all, there's no reason to think the ability won't work as intended otherwise.
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Anyway iirc the terrain is super huge and an arwing isnt exactly discrete


I think archer is probably the only dude capable to take advantage of ridleys fight against kirby

Lich king may have seen the fight occur 1000000 times, but he cant override archer sniping down him 1000000 of 10000000 times.


Anyway fun match!
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

100% in your personal interp sure. Let's not act like this is an objective fact though :)

Do you have an actual counterargument? Because the text of Infest is 'inflicts increasingly higher Shadow damage to all enemies within 60 yards until the target is healed above 90% of their maximum HP'. I look at your team and it has absolutely no healing (nor dispelling abilities for that matter). The onus is on you to prove Infest won't eventually just flat out kill whoever's fighting Arthas without him having to do anything else. After all, there's no reason to think the ability won't work as intended otherwise.

My counterargument is you are arguing damage and HP scales between two different games. I am not in fact saying that Infest won't do what it says, but the actual amount of damage it deals is up for interpretation. Saying, "It will 100% out dps and kill Neph before Neph + Wrex drop the Lich King every time," is something that you just pulled out of your ass. Which is your right as a voter, but let's just not pretend you've actually proven that objectively.
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hmm
yeah gravy has more or less convinced me tbh

Ridley and his archer friends
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hmm
yeah gravy has more or less convinced me tbh

Vergil and his arwing friends
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greengravy294 posted...

Lich king may have seen the fight occur 1000000 times, but he cant override archer sniping down him 1000000 of 10000000 times.

But Vergil can!
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My counterargument is you are arguing damage and HP scales between two different games. I am not in fact saying that Infest won't do what it says, but the actual amount of damage it deals is up for interpretation. Saying, "It will 100% out dps and kill Neph before Neph + Wrex drop the Lich King every time," is something that you just pulled out of your ass. Which is your right as a voter, but let's just not pretend you've actually proven that objectively.

Put a number down then. How much tougher do you think the Nephalem is compared to a WoW character? 100% tougher? 200%? 300%? 400%? And the same for damage. It's a pretty trivial thing to compare values using your estimate and determine if Arthas would outlast the Neph or not. Doesn't take a lot of work to determine that yes, Arthas is going to do precisely that.
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Im so convincing wow!
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

My counterargument is you are arguing damage and HP scales between two different games. I am not in fact saying that Infest won't do what it says, but the actual amount of damage it deals is up for interpretation. Saying, "It will 100% out dps and kill Neph before Neph + Wrex drop the Lich King every time," is something that you just pulled out of your ass. Which is your right as a voter, but let's just not pretend you've actually proven that objectively.

Put a number down then. How much tougher do you think the Nephalem is compared to a WoW character? 100% tougher? 200%? 300%? 400%? And the same for damage. It's a pretty trivial thing to compare values using your estimate and determine if Arthas would outlast the Neph or not. Doesn't take a lot of work to determine that yes, Arthas is going to do precisely that.

I'm not going to even engage in such detailed number wankery between two completely different game systems because I think that's an obvious violation of the spirit of guidline 1 (the battle takes place as in a FMV cutscene...) but feel free to hold this against me if you must!
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What is The Lich King's optimal action here is sorta where I'm having pause. He will certainly take it but I'm not sure it's good enough.
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Man, no wonder the team I took over was 1-4 despite laying the groundwork for amazing strategies, you can't argue mercs very well.
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Lopen posted...

What is The Lich King's optimal action here is sorta where I'm having pause. He will certainly take it but I'm not sure it's good enough.

My thought is that the Lich King forces the Neph into a trap that she can't escape and disposes of her super quickly. Having done this battle this many times there will be enough cunning from him to know a point where she is going to be and tag her. Hard. Then she's super dead.
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obviously demon hunter is shadow-elemental so infest will not be very effective
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They had gotten rid of elemental resisting by then.
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This is a fairly squishy Nephalem skillset. In addition vault is actually the kinda dodge that, if you knew when or how it was likely happening, is very punishable as well. So I could maybe buy this happening sooner than you'd expect.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

My thought is that the Lich King forces the Neph into a trap that she can't escape and disposes of her super quickly. Having done this battle this many times there will be enough cunning from him to know a point where she is going to be and tag her. Hard. Then she's super dead.

This is what I thought. Couple that with what gravy said, where even if he does tag the arwing 900.000 out of 1,000,000 times (which I think is more generous), LK can force one of those other 10% and Vergil can stall long enough for the advantages to snowball.
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FFDragon posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

My thought is that the Lich King forces the Neph into a trap that she can't escape and disposes of her super quickly. Having done this battle this many times there will be enough cunning from him to know a point where she is going to be and tag her. Hard. Then she's super dead.

This is what I thought. Couple that with what gravy said, where even if he does tag the arwing 900.000 out of 1,000,000 times (which I think is more generous), LK can force one of those other 10% and Vergil can stall long enough for the advantages to snowball.

How does LK help Kirby at all? How's he communicating with Kirby and does that mere verbal communication if it even existed help Kirby avoid the attack?
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Basically, if you've watched Edge of Tomorrow (or read the manga it's based on I GUESS), you know how incredibly advantageous having advanced knowledge of every permutation a battle could take.

And I don't think the power level on the other side is able to eclipse that in a reasonable timeframe to take real advantage.
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Also there's the fact that Archer also has his own precognition that guides his attacks.
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The knowledge gained is pre-battle.

Arthas has already going to have given out the orders of what their optimal gameplan would be in their pre-battle planning stage.
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Edge of Tomorrow is awesome.

Also the Lich King is like a master manipulator of events even without foreknowledge. Lured Arthas to his side, murdered the greatest heroes of the world with practiced ease <_<.

Dude's one of the best to give this to.
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"has already going to have"

what a shit sentence

I'm leaving it there as a mark of shame.
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FFDragon posted...

The knowledge gained is pre-battle.

Arthas has already going to have given out the orders of what their optimal gameplan would be in their pre-battle planning stage.

Right but pre-battle verbal planning does not convey the same level of edge of Tommorrow knowledge to his teammates. They didn't actually experience that themselves. Will Kirby be able to use that verbally conveyed knowledge in the heat of battle to flawlessly avoid attacks from another person with their own precognition?
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redrocket_pub posted...

Will Kirby be able to use that verbally conveyed knowledge in the heat of battle to flawlessly avoid attacks from another person with their own precognition?

Worked well enough for the Full Metal Bitch.
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FFDragon posted...

redrocket_pub posted...

Will Kirby be able to use that verbally conveyed knowledge in the heat of battle to flawlessly avoid attacks from another person with their own precognition?

Worked well enough for the Full Metal Bitch.

? Missing that reference.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Edge of Tomorrow is awesome.

Also the Lich King is like a master manipulator of events even without foreknowledge. Lured Arthas to his side, murdered the greatest heroes of the world with practiced ease <_<.

Dude's one of the best to give this to.

I thought he WAS arthas
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William Cage (the one with the relevant ability) is able to pre-battle plan out with Rita Vrataski (the full metal bitch) who is just a regular person to in fact flawlessly avoid attacks from an entire army.
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Eddv posted...

I thought he WAS arthas

he's arthas and an orc mashed together
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Eddv posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Edge of Tomorrow is awesome.

Also the Lich King is like a master manipulator of events even without foreknowledge. Lured Arthas to his side, murdered the greatest heroes of the world with practiced ease <_<.

Dude's one of the best to give this to.

I thought he WAS arthas

By this time he was. He had destroyed the spirit of Nerzul.
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redrocket_pub posted...

How does LK help Kirby at all? How's he communicating with Kirby and does that mere verbal communication if it even existed help Kirby avoid the attack?

You're aware he commands armies that are literally on other continents, right? Arthas is an incredibly potent psychic, enough to take the blood of his universe's Cthulhu, turn it into his entire castle, wear armor made of it, and completely no-sell any mind interference. He gets into plenty of characters' heads, including powerful dragons. A few mental commands to a pink ball is trifling.

Anyway, Lich King infests Neph to death, then freezes people solid and gloats about it. Why am I the only one who ever brings this up?
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oh right

I forgot that he can whisper directly into people's heads

I don't think he needs that here, but yeah that's a thing.
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For the record, I do think Everett branches is in like the top 5 broken abilities in the game.

It actually allows someone to become the "GameFAQs" version of themselves and trickle a little of that out to the rest of their team.

Sliding scale depending on who it's used on and the power level of the other side, but I think it turns a lot of close matches and even sizable losses into wins or stomps.
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Man that's true

Tom Cruise is such a scrub

But with Everett Branches - Infinite he can solo world
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Archer's a strong Arwing counter, which sucks for Kirby. that one's not even much of a concern, it's just not fast enough and would get sniped out of the air before anybody realizes it. well, besides lich king, though there's probably nothing he can do about that. Vergil vs. Archer... is a matter of terrain distance and obstacles. little doubt that Archer can win that exchange too since his rocket swords go fast. but if it goes to melee... actually Archer still might wind since he's got more unique tricks up his sleeve and would probably be interested in yamato.
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That's what I'm saying.

It took a PR talking head pansy and let him solo (or duo with Emily Blunt) an entire alien army.

Now give that to the Lich King instead.
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honestly, despite archer being a hard counter to 1/3 units and probably wins against another 1/3 normally, that knowledge is enough to give pause.

lich king will generally know where to go safely. he'll know the general problems that Archer gives against them. so unless Archer is solo'ing them every time, he provides a massive gap.
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