Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Vergil/Kirby/The Lich King vs. The Boss/Wrex/Archer/ Ridley/Nephalem

(+) Yeah! (+)

Play the game instead of reading the lorebook.

I'm not taking some hack writer who couldn't decide which class to make the canon one so just included all 5 as the canon when the game directly opposes that narrative

Diablo 2 there's less direct opposition so I can accept it a bit more, though gun to head I'd probably say that's also intended as one. And Diablo 1 obviously can't be a group because of the story of Diablo 2-- and even your dumb book has that as one person.
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yeah I am fine with lorebook coexisting alongside the game

but if the book flat-out contradicts the game, the game takes precedence
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In Diablo 1, it was a Warrior, a Rogue, and a Sorcerer, who end up being Aidan, Blood Raven, and the Summoner, respectively.

In Diablo 2, Deckard Cain mentions in his book that it was the combination of the seven heroes that managed to defeat Baal in LoD.



And in the canon, I believe the Rogue and Sorceror went crazy while the warrior deliveres the final blow.
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Lopen posted...

Play the game instead of reading the lorebook.

I'm not taking some hack writer who couldn't decide which class to make the canon one so just included all 5 as the canon when the game directly opposes that narrative

Diablo 2 there's less direct opposition so I can accept it a bit more, though gun to head I'd probably say that's also intended as one. And Diablo 1 obviously can't be a group because of the story of Diablo 2-- and even your dumb book has that as one person.

I am not gonna take the literal creators of the game over gameplay made to accomodate a player.

Nope. Mercs is about canon. Not gameplay mechanics made to make a game work for the player. The merc here is weak as fuck. Probably a 4 or a 5. In actual worth.
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It's very easy to make the game still 'work for the player' without presenting it like they did in Diablo 3 though. Hell just make it more like Diablo 2 problem solved.

Show me a source that says that book is canon and not just some wacky thing some random Blizzard employee made not unlike the weird Super Mario Bros instruction books of yore and I'll believe you.
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Stuff like this is exactly why I didn't rebuy Nephalem

One day there will be a BlizzardMercs and there will be no survivors
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Lopen posted...

And Diablo 1 obviously can't be a group because of the story of Diablo 2-- and even your dumb book has that as one person.

Well after quick googling, Corrik is right about D1 being a group effort. The Lore panel at Blizzcon 2011 confirms that.
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This discussion reminds me of Elder Scrolls Online, where it very distinctly calls you "the chosen one" when they're thousands of other chosen ones running around at the same time.

I knew D1 was a group effort, but D3 is not.
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D1 and D2 are confirmed group efforts it seems.

It also seems they don't really finalize the TRUE LORE until right before the next game comes out.

So I guess we'll know for certain in like seventeen years when D4 comes out.
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https://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/13971363

That's the blizzard release for that guidebook, seems it was made to lay out the story so far up to Reaper of Souls. So in that sense I wouldn't be surprised if D3 was actually a group effort too, considering how every other game has gone.

That's officially the end of me trying to confirm/deny this thing. But it definitely seems at least up for debate.
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can we go back to kirby conversations
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I view a guidebook on par with Kan posting manga scans of Sub-Zero, or book passages about Master Chief.

I'm actually okay with that kind of thing (and am more liberal than most voters, I think), but if it contradicts the actual game, then the game always takes precedence.
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If Blood Raven is actually supposed to be the D1 Rogue they did a terrible job of conveying that in the game
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If this was an isolated incident, maybe, but they did it for D1 and D2 and are showing they want the same thing for D3 so I'm okay with taking them at their word.
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Drakeryn posted...

I view a guidebook on par with Kan posting manga scans of Sub-Zero, or book passages about Master Chief.

I'm actually okay with that kind of thing (and am more liberal than most voters, I think), but if it contradicts the actual game, then the game always takes precedence.

MC write up literally says to take into account book passages though
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Well neither of the other two games had such a "YOU ARE ALONE" "YOU ARE UNIQUE" "YOU ARE THE ONE" feel to them.

With DIablo 1 I mostly assumed it was a given the dude was alone because Diablo 2... basically says that to you. This Blood Raven = D1 Rogue, Summoner = D1 Wizard smells like MGS4 "let's shoehorn every major character into the plot" nonsense that wasn't actually considered when D1 or D2 were made.
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that's true

book passages about Zeratul, then
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Basically if you think Neph soloed you probably think they're a 7.

If you think Nephs grouped you probably think they're a low 5.

I lean towards the latter.
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Lopen posted...

It's very easy to make the game still 'work for the player' without presenting it like they did in Diablo 3 though. Hell just make it more like Diablo 2 problem solved.

Show me a source that says that book is canon and not just some wacky thing some random Blizzard employee made not unlike the weird Super Mario Bros instruction books of yore and I'll believe you.

It is the literal story on battle.net from BLIZZARD who made it lol
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I don't care who said it. The game is the ultimate source on itself. If something else contradicts the game, it's out.
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Drakeryn posted...

I don't care who said it. The game is the ultimate source on itself. If something else contradicts the game, it's out.

It is the story of the game from the creator how it happens despite how the game is made to cater to your gameplay.

You can argue it isn't despite it being officially confirmed that way just like D1 and D2. That is your choice. But, anyone arguing Nephalem defeats so and so with arguments like "I think Nephalem could wear down the Lich King" is garbage. I would maybe even take Sylvanas straight up over Nephalem. And, anyone who wishes to say otherwise, more power to them. I stand by the lore and how it is affecrs said mercs.
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-FFDragon- posted...

Basically if you think Neph soloed you probably think they're a 7.

If you think Nephs grouped you probably think they're a low 5.

I lean towards the latter.

I dunno, soloing Diablo doesn't seem like it'd make you a 7 to me. It's not like in D3 you manhandle Diablo, or facetank him. Kinda like how most villains are just overall stronger than the hero, like Belmonts/Dracula, Link/Ganon, Mario/Bowser, etc.
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Eh, fair enough. Then make it 6/high 4.

Either way, Neph doesn't stand up well against any other 7 we have and whoever made the build should feel bad imo
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That's probably why Neph doesn't have a drawback passive. The drawback is they're not actually a 7.
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FULL DISCLOSE I'm only like a quarter of the way through reaper of souls, but I don't foresee anything shifting my respect drastically.
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Corrik posted...

It is the story of the game from the creator how it happens despite how the game is made to cater to your gameplay.

Well Blizzard is a big company. Random monkey who writes flavorful lore book may not actually be in good contact with the person who actually wrote the story to the games.
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Lopen posted...

Corrik posted...

It is the story of the game from the creator how it happens despite how the game is made to cater to your gameplay.

Well Blizzard is a big company. Random monkey who writes flavorful lore book may not actually be in good contact with the person who actually wrote the story to the games.

Consistent with all previous Diablo lores. Featured on main blizzard website. Highly doubtful that Blizzard a company that strongly is proud of their games and their lores let someone butcher the story and they proudly present it for them.



-FFDragon- posted...

Eh, fair enough. Then make it 6/high 4.

Either way, Neph doesn't stand up well against any other 7 we have and whoever made the build should feel bad imo

The answer has to be Lopen. There is no way he would take this viewpoint if he didn't make the merc. It was an oversight which reeks of not wanting to admit the mistake. Lopen is too logical to stand by the some random monkey fucked up the lore and the company supports it.



That said, Nephalem as a 7 should have been all 5 classes present when defeating Diablo.


And FFd as far as your soloing Diablo makes you a 6. Not really. You see matchups create unexpected results all the time, as well, as jobbing. You could make arguments that Squirrel Girl is a 7 and Doo. a 6 based on just beating someone as criteria for your rank.

Cloud can beat Sephiroth from time to time, but Sephiroth is definitely more powerful than Cloud.
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Despite me being one of the main proponents of Mechanics over Lore, there is a reasonable situation that can be examined from the direct lore from the primary source. If this was from any author-writer, going outwards, i'd be iffy on it, regardless if it was a good story, without the game to back it up, but this is from the direct publisher of the game, Blizzard Entertainment, and must be examined a bit further.

The way the history of the diablo games read, from the start of diablo 1 (avoiding the hellfire expansion *lol*) and going on from diablo 2, to lord of destruction, to diablo 3, and reaper of souls, it does state the story of the game rather well, saying there is more than one of the Nephelem, and more importantly, the combination of pages 27, and several pages going on using the plural "Heroes" and "They" in the story, although the mechanics are balanced around single player, it's obvious, that the story told was to be for multiple heroes, the Nephelem going through the lands, eventually confronting and defeating the evils of the land.

It could be put up both ways, that the story should be only in game single player, or that maybe the creation of the Mercs Nephelem wasn't examined as carefully as it should have been. That pretty much sums up why there's such a power dissonance between what the players and voters think.

Drakeryn posted...

I don't care who said it. The game is the ultimate source on itself. If something else contradicts the game, it's out.

I don't know if it's so cut and dry. Like to me it's kinda like the discussion we had on Tiamat's size in the other fight topic - Tiamat is kinda super unimpressively sized in ToZ's gameplay, but you look at the cutscenes and it's humongous. I'm OK with taking a guidebook at its word so long as it's consistent with what we see that we could in fact infer it happened that way (for example, by comparing how there's health fountains in the Diablo fight and imagining if you'd take a reasonably kitted out Demon Hunter over Diablo assuming no chances to refill). Would it make sense if Diablo needed to fight like five or six Nephalem to get taken down? I'm not 100% sure, but it could be.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Drakeryn posted...

I don't care who said it. The game is the ultimate source on itself. If something else contradicts the game, it's out.

I don't know if it's so cut and dry. Like to me it's kinda like the discussion we had on Tiamat's size in the other fight topic - Tiamat is kinda super unimpressively sized in ToZ's gameplay, but you look at the cutscenes and it's humongous. I'm OK with taking a guidebook at its word so long as it's consistent with what we see that we could in fact infer it happened that way (for example, by comparing how there's health fountains in the Diablo fight and imagining if you'd take a reasonably kitted out Demon Hunter over Diablo assuming no chances to refill). Would it make sense if Diablo needed to fight like five or six Nephalem to get taken down? I'm not 100% sure, but it could be.

That's still the game tho
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In official canon, Sonic is capable of running at up to lightspeed

Just saying
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Johnbobb posted...

In official canon, Sonic is capable of running at up to lightspeed

Just saying

And in game he is capable of running like 25 mph. Are you saying we should go with canon or gameplay?
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Corrik posted...

Johnbobb posted...

In official canon, Sonic is capable of running at up to lightspeed

Just saying

And in game he is capable of running like 25 mph. Are you saying we should go with canon or gameplay?

what sonic games are you playing

'25 mph' is something Sonic doesn't move at
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It is unknown what Sonic's unaided top speed is. In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and when facing Ultimate Emerl, he went at least ten rounds with him in less than thirty seconds. It has often been stated that Sonic can move at supersonic speed[20] (which ranges from 915-3,840 mph), and he has once been called the "the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog"[35] (which ranges from 3,840-7,680 mph). There are as well records stating that Sonic can move faster than the speed of light, although their accuracy cannot be guaranteed;[36][37]E-123 Omega himself calculated that Sonic's speed could potentially exceed light speed as Sonic confidently replied that light speed was "small time" to him.[38]

I'm just saying, always remember this when arguing Canon v. Gameplay
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Corrik posted...

Johnbobb posted...

In official canon, Sonic is capable of running at up to lightspeed

Just saying

And in game he is capable of running like 25 mph. Are you saying we should go with canon or gameplay?

what sonic games are you playing

'25 mph' is something Sonic doesn't move at

Sonic the hedgehog 1 and 2 based on the size of enemies and how far he moves in relation to their size on the ground at top speed. I think I may be being generous tbqh.
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Sonic the hedgehog 1 and 2 based on the size of enemies and how far he moves in relation to their size on the ground at top speed. I think I may be being generous tbqh.

So what, modern sonic games don't exist? >_>
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Ok but literally every modern Sonic game contradicts that drastically

Unless you're gonna try to argue "limitationsCannon
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Wow that deleted half my sentence
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Corrik posted...

The answer has to be Lopen. There is no way he would take this viewpoint if he didn't make the merc. It was an oversight which reeks of not wanting to admit the mistake. Lopen is too logical to stand by the some random monkey fucked up the lore and the company supports it.

I did not make the merc. I just know there are dozens of examples in games where there's a random lore dump in some random piece of stuff supported by the publisher, usually the game instruction manual, and it is totally inconsistent with the actual lore presented in the game and future titles.
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Lopen posted...

Corrik posted...

The answer has to be Lopen. There is no way he would take this viewpoint if he didn't make the merc. It was an oversight which reeks of not wanting to admit the mistake. Lopen is too logical to stand by the some random monkey fucked up the lore and the company supports it.

I did not make the merc. I just know there are dozens of examples in games where there's a random lore dump in some random piece of stuff supported by the publisher, usually the game instruction manual, and it is totally inconsistent with the actual lore presented in the game and future titles.

Well, this is not one of them, and I feel if you do your due diligence regarding the matter that you shall agree.
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Diablo 3 is not a game that needs lore dumps to explain the plot is the thing. The intent was very clear when playing through the game-- and you get this same dialogue when playing single player or multiplayer, and as Drak said, even beyond the dialogue there are gameplay segments that reinforce this idea that the canon Nephalem is singular fighter wading through all the forces of hell. The only people who would support this are people who haven't played the game (or people like FFD who aren't sold on the character based on their skills, probably skipped the dialogue in the game, and are saying "oh yeah of course I read that lorebook it was a team")

To me this is just slop that the developer supports merely because they don't think anyone actually reads it and they don't want to openly denounce stuff on their site (and don't want to outright scrap it because the effort was put in). If asked in like an interview which one is the case I feel like the authoritative source would say Nephalem singular.

If this was actual intent in the game's plot, it is again, very easy to make the game come off as having a team of Nephalem even in single player, or at the very least, do what Diablo 2 did and don't directly contradict the idea that there may be plural Nephalem.
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Nothing supports your answer in lore. The only question that remains in diablo 3's story is if it will officially go to 6 heroes were in the nephalem or just 5. Nothing else.

If you wish to put on the blinder and ignore the official story, so be it. And, maybe in your story Revan was always a good guy. Maybe Chris or Jill was kidnapped and jailed based on which game you played. And Wesker is dead.

You can think what you want.

The fact remains that there is an official story. There is lore regarding the nephalem that has existed before the game was even made. It tells the true story.
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It's not "my playthrough" it's "everyone's playthrough" there are no dialogue choices in Diablo 3

You wouldn't even be arguing this so zealously if you'd actually you know, played the game
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And, I have beaten Diablo 3. You can check my battle.net ID. So, your you only disagree with me if you haven't played it argument is false.
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You must have skipped all of the dialogue then
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Lopen posted...

You must have skipped all of the dialogue then

I played it. And it is the exact same dialogue for every character. And, the official story is that they are there as a group. Same as every single Diablo before it. Hell, the fact I even immediately questioned the fact that the Nephalem was a singular person was because I played Diablo before and questioned the accuracy on that. Why I dived deeper to answer what I thought was misleading.

Ppl thought there was 1 hero in both diablo and diablo 2 also. And they were wrong in both accounts.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Corrik posted...

Johnbobb posted...

In official canon, Sonic is capable of running at up to lightspeed

Just saying

And in game he is capable of running like 25 mph. Are you saying we should go with canon or gameplay?

what sonic games are you playing

'25 mph' is something Sonic doesn't move at

Holy shit sanic is derp but even i can admit hes fast
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People will always assume it, but there's direct evidence to support that there's a single hero in Diablo 1 (from Diablo 2's retelling of the events of Diablo 1), and Diablo 3 (heavily heavily implied from Diablo 3's dialogue and elements of its gameplay)

Diablo 2 has always been pretty open to interpretation-- people can basically take whichever interpretation they want there and be as credible, but with Diablo 1 and Diablo 3, what's given supports a single hero.

Random instruction manualesque blurbs aren't going to beat the game's storytelling there for me. You're saying random instruction manual should win. I disagree. No one can win that argument either way, but pretending that the game Diablo 3 doesn't practically outright tell you it's one Nephalem is something that no one who played and paid attention to the game would support without some sorta ulterior motives at play.
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greengravy294 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Corrik posted...

Johnbobb posted...

In official canon, Sonic is capable of running at up to lightspeed

Just saying

And in game he is capable of running like 25 mph. Are you saying we should go with canon or gameplay?

what sonic games are you playing

'25 mph' is something Sonic doesn't move at

Holy shit sanic is derp but even i can admit hes fast

Ofc he is fast. I said if you went from straight gameplay. Which, why would someone?
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