Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

DeathChicken posted...

Akihiko's answer to being mugged by a guy with a gun and a guy with a knife was to kung-fu them while waxing poetic about not being able to find worthy opponents. Just saying, *that* is his personality in a nutshell

Yes, this
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Would take Bison over most (the bots are a maybe) and Akuma would solo the whole damn party if he felt like it. They aren't far above anything, the SF universe ain't that weak and for the most part, Persona's ain't that strong. Akihiko is your peak human there and he's got fairly clear limits.

And I'm pretty sure Mitsuru had part of her story be that she busts her ass off to be good at everything. She absolutely trains regularly.
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Akuma is the only one in the universe who I would consider taking over a Persona user, and he wouldn't beat the strongest ones like Aigis period.
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Still chuckling at Ryu apparently breaking his hand hitting a persona.
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MenuWars posted...

Still chuckling at Ryu apparently breaking his hand hitting a persona.

He would. Street Fighter is overhyped to hell and back in these topics. Apparently realizing that those characters can move fast and punch good made people forget that other characters deal with stuff that's WAY stronger.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Guns don't wreck harmonizer users in Devil Survivor, you fight people with guns and win

...and most of the time, including in the plot, guns are a clear counter for the people involved and will absolutely murder harmonizer users. They do get a boost to parameters but bullets still wreck 'em.

And Ryu was always fairly rated, it's just that when SF4 came out he had new feats and respect levels changed. Ditto for SF5, though I think it's still mostly the SF4 cutscenes and animation that really let it sink in how good he is.
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Then how come a regular golf club can be used to fight and do damage one?
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They're not wrecking them so much if the people with bullets lose. Bullets are dangerous but they're not unbeatable
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KamikazePotato posted...

Akuma is the only one in the universe who I would consider taking over a Persona user, and he wouldn't beat the strongest ones like Aigis period.

....Akuma would laugh at dinky Persona. You want him to be challenged by that universe, it's Elizabeth.

And he'd likely win that.
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lmao Elizabeth would solo the Street Fighter universe

Elizabeth takes a yearly vacation to go and one-shot the living embidoment of Humanity's grief and sorrow that would destroy humanity if it reached earth

You guys drink the SF koolaid so goddamn much
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I mean I'm just going to assume we're ignoring their cameos in Asura's wrath cus if not LOOOOOL
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KamikazePotato posted...

They're not wrecking them so much if the people with bullets lose. Bullets are dangerous but they're not unbeatable

The only times they lose are against summoners with high level demons, not due to the boost. Countless people get gunned down in the game, including the plot. Demons are a stronger counter to guns but users with the app? Nope, they'd be wrecked by gunfire. And... they literally are multiple times throughout the plot.
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No KP, this is just you being a crazy fanboy here.
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The party members don't lose to guns, which is what matters

I think I'm going to stop here because there is a very clear difference in universe respects here, but I will say that I think most of the Street Fighter respect being thrown around here is completely unwarranted
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... Elizabeth teleports a demon to the moon and then throws him into the sun.

Like I'm big on Street Fighter because V did absolute wonders for the cast (hi Zangief, thank you for universally raising the bar) beyond the usual 'the plot probably assumes that Bison is good based on Alpha 3's pacing and also Balrog punched an elephant to death in a comment once'. Hell I buy Akuma over Aigis (maybe not Shadow Labrys but definitely Aigis).

But... no. Elizabeth is legit 7/week material even if you gave her a 'no teleport' nerf.
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Kinglicious posted...

No KP, this is just you being a crazy fanboy here.

Fanboy of what?? I don't like Persona THAT much. Nothing I've said has been wrong. Elizabeth singlehandedly defeats Erebus without breaking a sweat every year. The people from the Velvet Room are literally called 'those who preside over power'. And Akuma is supposed to match her? Get real.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Akihiko uses his own physical strength instead of a Persona because it's what he does. He trains and he moves fast and he likes punching things. He still loses to Yu, because a Persona means a lot more.

It's against INANIMATE OBJECTS like invisible walls the likes of which the rest of the cast can't break through or actual, physical walls are better dealt with by him punching them instead of summoning his Persona to break them down (which the other characters also can't break those walls by doing). Again, in a situation in which he knows the lives of other people, including his friends, are on the line. He's even the one who gives lectures on the ability to summon Persona to others.

Also Yu beats him because he's stronger than Akihiko. We already know given he's a wild card, his Persona is pretty much guaranteed stronger. That doesn't mean someone who's significantly stronger than Akihiko physically wouldn't be much more of a threat to Yu or Akihiko.

Mages aren't inherently stronger than physical fighters but Personas aren't magic, and they in fact are inherently stronger than people in general, by a lot

Whether or not Personas are magic has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about someone with an inherent power isn't necessarily going to be stronger than someone who doesn't have that power.

Guns don't wreck harmonizer users in Devil Survivor, you fight people with guns and win

The entire basis of the lockdown is that they absolutely cannot escape it without tons of planning and massive diversions merely because of snipers. Yuzu's path goes deep into that. Plotwise, they aren't bulletproof, regardless of Phys Null/Repel.

Beating Kefka is a gargantuan 16-man affair, and Nyx is stronger than Kefka regardless

And fighting Nyx Avatar is an 8-man affair that ends with Nyx going "whatever" and beating them. What's there to gleam from Akihiko in that beyond wanting to throw the name out? Even if they'd actually won, it'd be like hyping Grant DaNasty as equal to Alucard for his contribution to the fight against Dracula in CV3.
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KamikazePotato posted...

The party members don't lose to guns, which is what matters

no, the specific claim that was made, which you yourself argued too, was about harmonizer users.
harmonizer users in Devil Survivor are a lot of people. and they were regularly gunned down with ease. demons were a problem, not people.

the only reason your party doesn't lose to guns is because your party either a) literally runs away from them for most of the game and fights back against the military only with high level demons, or b) your party saves the would-be party member who will die from gunfire if you don't save them. guns are pointed out as something that can hurt during the game, the military obviously is shooting people with it, and... that's what there is to it. what matters is that even though this app and summoning improved the parameters of the individual where a fatal claw strike from a low level demon doesn't even register as damage, gunfire would ruined them.

Kamekguy posted...

Hell I buy Akuma over Aigis (maybe not Shadow Labrys but definitely Aigis).

...talking canon akuma here, bottom of the ocean, uppercutting subs, punching out islands, etc.
no, he'd stomp the hell out of that entire division.
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I'd take Elizabeth over Akuma for sure, but I don't buy most of that Akuma stuff.

But no one in Persona is really on level with the Velvet attendants. Even in the duels, the attendants always hold back from just using their instant-win 9999 damage attacks that they can do on reaction and are simply testing them.
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Shadow Labrys is "constantly messing with your senses and perception of reality and a demon that works independently of her that drags you into a labyrinth".

Like I'm not talking gameplay Shadow Labrys, I'm talking full on "actually really fucking good" Shadow Labrys.
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I do think Akuma would annihilate Shadow Labrys, though. Like that bit doesn't really translate to a fight so well when she still gets beaten by the Persona 3/4 characters.
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lol even mentioning Akuma and Elizabeth in the same sentence.

And I'm an Akuma mark.
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KJH posted...

but I don't buy most of that Akuma stuff.

for what it's worth, i'm also avoiding explicitly stating Tekken 7 spoilers. he's got more feats there and it seems to be canon to him. though his biggest thing he's got against the Persona users would have to be Shun Goku Satsu, since the idea of targeting the person's soul is a pretty hard counter.
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I think Akihiko would beat Ryu, but it's interesting enough to make me think about it.

Akuma vs. Elizabeth is literally lol.
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Petition To Change Ryu to 6/Week, on the grounds that He Beats Up Everybody
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Yeah if Elizabeth literally throws someone into the sun and can teleport, that's galactic in scale and Akuma's not come anywhere close to that, his biggest (pretty sure non canon) feat to my knowledge is punching a moon in half... and that's as Oni his demon form, not just straight Akuma.
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Did ryu win
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I think maybe the only merc who can give Ryu a good fight is the Wonderful 100. Only because there are 100 people so maybe Ryu would tire out eventually, still a toss up though.
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GANON1025 posted...

I think maybe the only merc who can give Ryu a good fight is the Wonderful 100. Only because there are 100 people so maybe Ryu would tire out eventually, still a toss up though.

You seem overly bitter about this discussion.
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The real question:

Ken vs Ryu

BUT

Ken gets Sakura, Dan, or Sean helping him. What's the lowest it can go for Ken to win?
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Also GANON, beat SMT4:A so we can argue Gaston in mercs sometime.
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Ken takes it with Sakura and Dan. Sean seems unneccesary and Dan's just there to be thrown to the wolf while Ken and Sakura plan a pincer attack.
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Oh, I meant more like just taking one, but I guess multiple if you think he needs it.

Like Ken + Sean seems unlikely for Ken to win, but I could see Ken + Dan being enough to beat Ryu just on Dan's physical fitness alone being enough of a thing to wear down Ryu or maybe suckerpunch him for Ken to take it. And Ken+Sakura, I'd almost always give to them over just Ryu.
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I think Ryu is too good of a person for Michael's Spear to hurt him
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KJH posted...

Oh, I meant more like just taking one, but I guess multiple if you think he needs it.

Like Ken + Sean seems unlikely for Ken to win, but I could see Ken + Dan being enough to beat Ryu just on Dan's physical fitness alone being enough of a thing to wear down Ryu or maybe suckerpunch him for Ken to take it. And Ken+Sakura, I'd almost always give to them over just Ryu.

I agree but I was going for the 100 percenter. Also Ken and Dan I'd probably give to Ryu as well, he's just a punching bag outside of game mechanics.
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Maaaaan, you really need to beat the game to see Gaston's later moves. You stopped at a really cool point too iirc
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MenuWars posted...

Yeah if Elizabeth literally throws someone into the sun and can teleport, that's galactic in scale and Akuma's not come anywhere close to that, his biggest (pretty sure non canon) feat to my knowledge is punching a moon in half... and that's as Oni his demon form, not just straight Akuma.

teleport yes, though i don't remember anything to do with the sun and her. P4A's opening iirc is her best feat which has her flip this giant monster and generally it's a better feat than anything Akuma's got. her issue lies more that she's the type who'd actively make contact with an opponent and use far less of her power. considering Akuma's got an attack that directly targets the soul and SMT as a whole values the soul for a lot of its content (including Persona), that's her biggest issue. ...that said, if he doesn't get to use it, yeah he's screwed. for everyone else though, he can pretty much just brute force 'em and that attack would just be an instant kill to any of 'em.

KJH posted...

Ken gets Sakura, Dan, or Sean helping him. What's the lowest it can go for Ken to win?

Sakura should work, i think.
the others... seem like they should favor Ryu. like maybe a lucky situation happens where Ken gets to surprise attack Ryu.
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also gaston is great.
he starts off kinda shit but when he gets going he gets good.
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The opening of Arena has Liz start at the universe wall (where P3 Guy is buried) fighting Erebus, the last boss of The Answer. He is described at this point at being so big she is a small dot on his fingertip, dude did some growing on humanity's grief. Liz tosses him from there to the Moon and then kills him. It's implied she does this often (Erebus regenerates) because she's pissy about the P3 Guy thing.
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Yeah my bad about the sun thing I'd totally messed that up.
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Dantezoid posted...

Did ryu win

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alright, then we're thinking the same feat. to correct DC's a bit - she flips him from the fingertip first, decides she's not going to be able to kill him there, and teleports both of them to the moon. she then summons Thanatos and kills him with that, basically just bringing him his own death.

i think she's also in a different dimension when she finds him, not this one.
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She teleports him to the moon because she doesn't want to risk battling him in the collective consciousness where she might hit something important.
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ah. that'd make sense.
but yeah that's showcasing her two most broken aspects - instant killing and wide scale teleportation. you know the monster was at the level of punching out mountains and stopping that level of power is easy, though not much else. also does show one of her weaknesses in that she for some reason still makes direct contact when she really doesn't need to, though you see that throughout the normal game anyway. basically means we've never really seen her be serious but she leaves herself open to attack.
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