Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

MenuWars posted...

Nah as soon as you presented the lore about shadows being able to infect anyone and only those strong enough to defeat their inner demon/whatevs survived the ordeal, it becomes fairly concrete that it isn't magical and more of a spiritual/psionic thing.

It doesn't matter how I personally feel about the situation at that point as there's clear evidence that it draws strength from that person based more upon willpower and mental fortitude than any magical bond or whatever.

I mean it still feels magical to me, but im clearly wrong on that front.

Aah, gotcha.

Sorry to keep throwing info at you, then.
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without a person at all it'd be fun yeah, though i'd still favor Yu. i don't think the guy sucks, just don't like the double standard lopen's got between Yu and Crono and think Crono would handle that fight easy. Yu's good, Crono's better, Tira just... sucks. basically if it's a highly competent human, they probably win. and this stands out in this fight too because lopen was arguing against Crono as a 1 on 1 versus Tira. yet there's no reason Yu should be better.
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Yeah not rating Crono because the game doesn't portray his abilities well enough is kinda like relegating all RPG characters of old to shit tier. Albeit he is right about Lavos being kind of underwhelming.
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Crono one on one with fighters and no magic is interesting because... Yeah, Crono takes on tougher stuff, but it's usually in a team setting or a "Vs. Big Bad" situation. A 1 on 1 fight with any trained 1 on 1 fighter is very different and comes down to actual swordsmanship.

Like, the example I used in that match was that yeah, Tira's a jobber in SC... But she loses to the main eventers/close to it. Like, I think the weakest person she loses to straight up is Maxi, but Maxi regularly defeats a demon with a giant ax, and one-on-one fighting is kinda his thing.

So, sure, Crono has better showings overall... But I don't think I'd take Crono to beat Maxi one-on-one with no magic, either, so him vs. Tira is very interesting.
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DeathChicken posted...

Ryu is super legit. I still kind of laugh at "Beat Alex so fast it took the crowd a second to realize the fight was over"

Oh yes, by all means. Ryu's a clean 4/week after Street Fighter 5 IMO. The verse as a whole has too many respectable baseline feats to diss, and he beats Bison and Necalli solo, who are both 4/week material themselves.
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I'm assuming at 4 a week he can't achieve satsui no hado unless bolded or something then?
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Ryu got bumped up to 4?
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Necalli didn't even DO anything in SF5 though.

i'd take magic-less Crono over most of the SC universe, including Maxi, as they all tend to be pretty weak. it's mostly a speed advantage for him that makes it. he's one of the fastest units in gameplay, Confuse gives after images, and if you just go more broadly, he's pretty much fits the standard "fast attack with a katana user" trope. though as DC mentioned, he does early in the game stab that tank and this is pre-magical enhancements, so he was just never that weak. should you be able to beat him in speed well enough, you probably win it. SC just doesn't have a lot of super fast guys is all.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Ryu got bumped up to 4?

Not in game mechanics, I mean that I think his battle prowess is comparable to someone like Corvo Attano, Ike or Kratos Aurion.

MenuWars posted...

I'm assuming at 4 a week he can't achieve satsui no hado unless bolded or something then?

He can, it's just that people need to be sold on it. It's not a given. Considering that 'Ryu is as he appears in the street fighter series', and at the peak of his power so far he's said to not need the Satsui no Hadou anymore, it's kinda difficult to see him giving in. It's behind him by now.
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It's not a double standard at all. It's a matter of how much you weigh feats vs technique shown and situations.

Tira just looks a lot faster and is (relative to Crono) a specialist in 1v1s vs humanoids given she's an assassin and the SC worldsetting, so in a 1v1 in situations where magic is not viable, I have her beating Crono. I don't take Crono's so called feats to mean much because they're all in team situations (where banned raises like Phoenix Down can be used) so it's not clear what Crono contributes or how clean the win is.

The only double standard here is the one you use vs the one I use. I think Yu and Tira come off as more competent fighters than Crono with the moves they use and speed they show. You don't because you think CT enemies are that impressive and you take gratuitous after image effects as conclusive evidence of speed. That's fine.
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Was talking to Menu!

I'd take Ike over Ryu though. Ike with the sword spam.
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Skyridge87 posted...

Necalli didn't even DO anything in SF5 though.

His story mode has him consuming Akuma, Bison and I forget who else. He's established as a serious threat there and nothing really suggests he would've failed at it if he'd met them, it's just that it doesn't pan out in the cinematic story mode because lolcapcomstorytelling.
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As far as where they were in the story at the time, the tank stab was also when Crono had the second shittiest sword he could have at that point. Later he gets far better stuff
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Can't Crono literally cut THROUGH time, or am I thinking of someone else? I mean that's a feat and a fucking half if ever there was one.
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That's actually always bothered me about RPGs: in-game equipment is never acknowledged or discredited except in very select cases. The Buster Sword being Cloud's weakest weapon is stupid, both thematically and mechanically. And despite Terra being able to equip heavy armor, she's always wearing that red shirt.

EDIT: Like, even in games where character models change, like Xenoblade, none of the cutscenes or events play out any differently if Shulk is wearing heavy armor or just in his boxers.

MenuWars posted...

Yeah not rating Crono because the game doesn't portray his abilities well enough is kinda like relegating all RPG characters of old to shit tier. Albeit he is right about Lavos being kind of underwhelming.

Just for the record it's not about limitations of the engine. It's about how the techs look. Crono basically either swings slow or does the equivalent of flailing, no real in between. He also has a super slow cast animation.

There are SNES characters I respect more. From his own game even.
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Lopen was also the one dehyping Kain as "slow" because his hitting 18 times in under a second was a quirk of graphics or somesuch, just to put this whole argument into perspective
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There are SNES characters I respect more. From his own game even.

Robo (from the future) OP
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DeathChicken posted...

Lopen was also the one dehyping Kain as "slow" because his hitting 18 times in under a second was a quirk of graphics or somesuch, just to put this whole argument into perspective

...Kain hits that fast? Where? Like I'm a major Kain homer but I don't remember this.
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Kain's technique is garbo
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Lopen posted...

MenuWars posted...

Yeah not rating Crono because the game doesn't portray his abilities well enough is kinda like relegating all RPG characters of old to shit tier. Albeit he is right about Lavos being kind of underwhelming.

Just for the record it's not about limitations of the engine. It's about how the techs look. Crono basically either swings slow or does the equivalent of flailing, no real in between. He also has a super slow cast animation.

There are SNES characters I respect more. From his own game even.

I thought we were supposed to go by lore not by game mechanics unless game mechanics are relevant though? Because if I were to go by game mechanics I'd have to rate any Persona character not in arena as garbage tier as it takes em ages to do anything.
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His jabby jab attack in Defiance. I counted out how many stabs he actually gets in during that last match in M4, it came out to something like 18 stabs in a second (if I recall correctly)
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Albeit I can happily go along with this as it just makes Dante even stronger tbh.
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Mechanics imo can be used if you're comparing with stuff in the same game or genre, and there are no better refence points.

Like I shouldn't have to assume an NES character is good at fighting if they do one punch attack and one kick attack because there are only two buttons when Double Dragon 2 exists. Some suspension of disbelief is fine but there comes a point where animations do tell us something as well.
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I thought we were supposed to go by lore not by game mechanics unless game mechanics are relevant though? Because if I were to go by game mechanics I'd have to rate any Persona character not in arena as garbage tier as it takes em ages to do anything.

Crono kinda has no lore though, which is the issue. Like compare, IDK, Starcraft characters to him - every single part of the Starcraft universe is detailed somewhere in written form and made to be super impressive (for example, the guns the basic Terran Marines use shoot hypersonic rounds at like Mach 6 or something that are foot long metal spikes, and Roach acid can be shot from a quarter of a kilometer away and will kill you with a really fast infection even if it doesn't corrode you to death). The Chrono verse, not so much. Chrono Cross stuff fares better, but CT? Ehhhhhh. And it's not like Squeenix didn't know how to do this - both FF6 and Xenogears have very sizable lore hype.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

I mean that I think his battle prowess is comparable to someone like Corvo Attano, Ike or Kratos Aurion.

don't know
Ryu > Ike
...Ryu > party member Kratos, though Kratos offers more utility.


Lopen posted...

I don't take Crono's so called feats to mean much because they're all in team situations (where banned raises like Phoenix Down can be used)

this would apply to most RPG characters, including Yu.
he's the protagonist and the only party members who must go through every single up until spoilers, at which point it's considered a heavy blow. in that spoilers he was the only one capable of movement, proving that he was the strongest of the party at that point and time. canonically, he's there again for the final battle too.

the double standard i'm pointing out is that you're only really questioning the usual RPG protagonist situation to him but you don't do it to anyone else, including Yu. it's not something you're willing to apply to FF characters or Yu with Persona, it's just something you did to Crono and i presume CT in general.

Lopen posted...

You don't because you think CT enemies are that impressive

at what point did giant beasts, tanks, giant ships, surface grazing monsters, etc suddenly mean things that are irrelevant? i mean Crono fought the dragon tank with only Lucca before magic was a thing. that fight ends with Crono leaping on it and cutting through it. that's a super early-game feat that shouldn't serve as anything impressive, it's just a base level to work with.

as for "gratuitous after images," again, the single tech moves are all quite reasonable for animations. this isn't an actual thing.

although this did get me to seeing the opening again. here you go, Kan, second scene with Epoch reaching super speed in flight, this would've been post Dalton upgrades. think those are the only two scenes that show its moving through time, which seems pretty clear to be acceleration-based:
https://youtu.be/m1Sb9CZEz9A?t=2m36s
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I respect other RPG protags for reasons other than ' they killed this big bad ' generally.

In Yu it's general Persona stat buff and tech and elemental resist hype along with him looking pretty competent in P4arena. Very little to do with the stuff he kills. You're the guy who brings that stuff up, not me.
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...Ryu > party member Kratos, though Kratos offers more utility.

To me there's no distinction between PC Kratos and boss Kratos, it's just that boss Kratos isn't hiding the power level so he 1v4s you LIKE A BOSS

(or 1v8s you if you take his second boss fight but that one's much less clear about who won or lost - you totally do get bodied in the first one)

Totally agree that Kratos is the superior overall merc because he has healing, he has spells and he can fly on top of really decent swordsmanship, just that in a mano a mano Ryu probably beats him.
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Also if we're talking in terms of actual feats the Fire Emblem crew gets really nastily hammered as not only are they mostly unimpressive but there's always a large group of them fighting, which lessens the impact of them.
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MenuWars posted...

Also if we're talking in terms of actual feats the Fire Emblem crew gets really nastily hammered as not only are they mostly unimpressive but there's always a large group of them fighting, which lessens the impact of them.

This is why we only have Chrom, Hector and Ike, yeah - those dudes have actual solo feats (particularly Ike, who solos the Black Knight IIRC). Technically we also have Tharja but she's an assist, not a main battle merc, which is about where she should be.
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It's actually kind of funny since story mode in Arena paints Yu as a guy who is *not* all that hot at one on one fighting. Mean like, he's good enough to beat Chie (for example), but he gets internal dialogue to the effect of "Haha I've never had the shit kicked out of me like that ever" so there wasn't that big of a power gap
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MenuWars posted...

I thought we were supposed to go by lore not by game mechanics unless game mechanics are relevant though? Because if I were to go by game mechanics I'd have to rate any Persona character not in arena as garbage tier as it takes em ages to do anything.

lopen's not going by game mechanics either, he's going by attack animations.
if it were game mechanics, it'd be admitting that Crono is pretty fast considering Ayla and Magus are the only two that run similar speed.

although i'll again point to the PS1 opening.

https://youtu.be/m1Sb9CZEz9A?t=2m20s

X Strike is shown.
and all you see is Frog and Crono both become streaks.
which once again says that no, Confuse is perfectly reasonable for Crono to do the way he does it. he's also the only one shown keeping up with Ayla in the intro. he's the main character of a JRPG, of course he's the one who does most of the work.
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Would take Chie over Crono too tbqh.
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MenuWars posted...

Also if we're talking in terms of actual feats the Fire Emblem crew gets really nastily hammered as not only are they mostly unimpressive but there's always a large group of them fighting, which lessens the impact of them.

FE has a massive gap between Awakening and the rest i think.
part of this is due to tech. in Awakening the enemies are shown much more impressive, but stuff like FE7 looks kinda meh. Ike is an oddball exception in that he was in the transition as they went from not-very-impressive to pretty-impressive.
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I think it's just par for the course really Persona has much more fleshed out characters and is more recent and much better presented and highly stylised. With them making a fighting game out of it also only strengthens it. Whereas Crono's got, some lore and some feats. Which I buy but I can see the reasoning behind being swayed the other way.

It's like if you make Dante an RPG character, he becomes much less impressive over night or it's the easiest RPG ever.
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Although he at least beats Yukiko badly enough that Rise laughs at her about it, so Yu has that going for him. Yay...?
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MenuWars posted...

I think it's just par for the course really Persona has much more fleshed out characters and is more recent and much better presented and highly stylised. With them making a fighting game out of it also only strengthens it. Whereas Crono's got, some lore and some feats. Which I buy but I can see the reasoning behind being swayed the other way.

It's like if you make Dante an RPG character, he becomes much less impressive over night or it's the easiest RPG ever.

Funny story, he is an RPG character!
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

MenuWars posted...

I think it's just par for the course really Persona has much more fleshed out characters and is more recent and much better presented and highly stylised. With them making a fighting game out of it also only strengthens it. Whereas Crono's got, some lore and some feats. Which I buy but I can see the reasoning behind being swayed the other way.

It's like if you make Dante an RPG character, he becomes much less impressive over night or it's the easiest RPG ever.

Funny story, he is an RPG character!

Something I don't know or are you just being incredibly literal?
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But yeah I think Chrono Trigger basically just hits on the worst of everything.

Dude has no hype coming in
Dude's animations don't look impressive
There's not really any real point where he hits a plot power spike to put him above human levels aside from learning magic

Basically CT is just really bad at establishing why the CT party is a big deal other than they beat these other things, somehow. That's good for you not so much for me. If there were more straight up duel battles in CT it'd be a much easier sell.
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MenuWars posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

MenuWars posted...

I think it's just par for the course really Persona has much more fleshed out characters and is more recent and much better presented and highly stylised. With them making a fighting game out of it also only strengthens it. Whereas Crono's got, some lore and some feats. Which I buy but I can see the reasoning behind being swayed the other way.

It's like if you make Dante an RPG character, he becomes much less impressive over night or it's the easiest RPG ever.

Funny story, he is an RPG character!

Something I don't know or are you just being incredibly literal?

He was in a Shin Megami Tensei game!
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Yukiko is pretty much the weakest one of the party i think.
Yu's technically the strongest, though he's still well below sub-Akihiko, Mitsuru, or the robot girls. might have a case for Naoto over him technically too. P4 just honestly isn't that impressive of a universe and Arena is what tries to scale them up to P3. which in the long run ain't that impressive either but that cast is much better. much of the gap between 'em does come down to experience, dangers faced, and age.
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Huh I didn't know this. Was it the easiest SMT ever?
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It was in a game where the scale was God and Lucifer were the main character's bitch by the end of it.

Nocturne was a hell of a ride.
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Like

Persona characters, all of them, come off as stronger than Crono to me. Because ' has a Persona ' is played as a bigger deal than everything Crono does to gain any sort of power.
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So like, we're just selectively ignoring Crono running around at a blur in the prior video
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DeathChicken posted...

So like, we're just selectively ignoring Crono running around at a blur in the prior video

... and slicing through a tank.
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I mean the obvious way to kill all the Persona guys is just talk to them while someone sneaks up and then nukes, they love a good waffle.
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I also see him moving at a different speed through the rest of the video. That's basically the FMV Version of gratuitous after images
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Lopen posted...

But yeah I think Chrono Trigger basically just hits on the worst of everything.

Dude has no hype coming in
Dude's animations don't look impressive
There's not really any real point where he hits a plot power spike to put him above human levels aside from learning magic

Basically CT is just really bad at establishing why the CT party is a big deal other than they beat these other things, somehow. That's good for you not so much for me. If there were more straight up duel battles in CT it'd be a much easier sell.

This incidentally is why Magus gets respected a lot more than other CT dudes - it's very easy to point to his bossfight mechanics and say 'this guy is hardcore' because, well, he is. He has absolutely obscene magic resist and you need frog to make him killable, and he still no-sells most of your magic and physical attacks regardless. His fight is HARD in spite of CT being an easy game in general. It just makes for a great sale of him that none of the other CT guys really get.
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