Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

DoomTheGyarados posted...

It was in a game where the scale was God and Lucifer were the main character's bitch by the end of it.

Nocturne was a hell of a ride.

And Dante is your underling, on that note. And not even the strongest guy you can field or anything.
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Lopen posted...

Dude has no hype coming in
Dude's animations don't look impressive
There's not really any real point where he hits a plot power spike to put him above human levels aside from learning magic

but the dragon tank fight happens before the magic.
hell, it happens after he's spent days in prison. he even gets attacked by the guard, flung to the wall, then gets up behind him and wins. for whatever reason it may be, he has "no hype" coming in but is already better than armored soldiers in the game. and it goes up from there.

and while he may have very few clear, visible showings, one of them is in the PS1 intro where he and Frog are using X Strike. the animation has the two turn to streaks of light as they attack the enemy. the cutscene shows... him and Frog turning into two streaks of light as they attack the enemy.

very literal, straightforward showing between cutscene animation and in-game attack. Confuse should have the same apply to it.

Lopen posted...

Persona characters, all of them, come off as stronger than Crono to me. Because ' has a Persona ' is played as a bigger deal than everything Crono does to gain any sort of power.

if training and being naturally strong doesn't matter to you, why do you respect any fighting game character?
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Lopen posted...

I also see him moving at a different speed through the rest of the video. That's basically the FMV Version of gratuitous after images

...so yes, you in fact are selectively ignoring the actual cutscene animation.
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To be fair, for feats, Yu DOES beat this thing legit solo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTxPjhAm1mE#t=23m10s

Which I think is like... everyone's persona fragments that were shaved off by psychological red fog going berserk, so it's like, everyone in Inaba's violent subconscious at the same time and is also a demon?

Ultimax is fucking stupid even by Persona standards.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

It was in a game where the scale was God and Lucifer were the main character's bitch by the end of it.

Nocturne was a hell of a ride.

And Dante is your underling, on that note. And not even the strongest guy you can field or anything.

I'd argue that's simply series bias tbh. It's not like if they came to a DMC Dante wouldn't treat them like noobs, just the way videogames work.
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Fighting game characters look the part. Their moves look like legit attacks, and they generally have better singular feats

Are you paying any attention here seriously
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Wanglicious posted...

Lopen posted...

I also see him moving at a different speed through the rest of the video. That's basically the FMV Version of gratuitous after images

...so yes, you in fact are selectively ignoring the actual cutscene animation.

Yes. Because it's at odds with the rest of the FMV and it's DBZ slop animation. This isn't really that strange. It's the same reason Kirby doesn't get planet busting strength credit.
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Kamekguy posted...

To be fair, for feats, Yu DOES beat this thing legit solo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTxPjhAm1mE#t=23m10s

Which I think is like... everyone's persona fragments that were shaved off by psychological red fog going berserk, so it's like, everyone in Inaba's violent subconscious at the same time and is also a demon?

Ultimax is fucking stupid even by Persona standards.

I mean you can dress that up with lore as much as you want that boss was pathetic.
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MenuWars posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

It was in a game where the scale was God and Lucifer were the main character's bitch by the end of it.

Nocturne was a hell of a ride.

And Dante is your underling, on that note. And not even the strongest guy you can field or anything.

I'd argue that's simply series bias tbh. It's not like if they came to a DMC Dante wouldn't treat them like noobs, just the way videogames work.

We're not talking about Persona here. SMT is, at its top end, on a level of universal scale. The main character of Nocturne is never getting into Mercs because he'd solo everything.
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I'd argue that's simply series bias tbh. It's not like if they came to a DMC Dante wouldn't treat them like noobs, just the way videogames work.

No, it's really not. >_>

Like for reference, SMT jobberony demons suplex subway trains. Like you know those bullet-shaped ones? Yeah, those. Dante is a high-level ally for the SMT3 Nocturne main character, whose power level is unreal. It's so high that he's a bonus boss in another game where your party is a bunch of 5/weeks who do things like outfly fighter jets on pure speed alone and he can stomp you flat into the dirt anyway. The music that plays there is literally his random encounter theme to hammer home just how insignificant THAT game's party is to him. SMT has a high power level, is what I'm saying.
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MenuWars posted...

Kamekguy posted...

To be fair, for feats, Yu DOES beat this thing legit solo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTxPjhAm1mE#t=23m10s

Which I think is like... everyone's persona fragments that were shaved off by psychological red fog going berserk, so it's like, everyone in Inaba's violent subconscious at the same time and is also a demon?

Ultimax is fucking stupid even by Persona standards.

I mean you can dress that up with lore as much as you want that boss was pathetic.

You're not wrong, but so was Lavos!

Plus Yu and Labrys are the only ones to defeat it when everyone else being 'a step behind' so... eh take it as you will.
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Yeah Kirby I always struggle with, he's Majin Kirbuu or a pathetic marshmallow.
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We're not talking about Persona here. SMT is, at its top end, on a level of universal scale. The main character of Nocturne is never getting into Mercs because he'd solo everything.

He almost got into M4, actually. He didn't mostly because 'lolnumbers' with the superweek!
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I still need to play SMT4 got it sitting by my DS, but the characters all look so mopey on the front I always play something else instead.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

We're not talking about Persona here. SMT is, at its top end, on a level of universal scale. The main character of Nocturne is never getting into Mercs because he'd solo everything.

He almost got into M4, actually. He didn't mostly because 'lolnumbers' with the superweek!

How the fuck did they justify that. Was he mid game level or something?
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

We're not talking about Persona here. SMT is, at its top end, on a level of universal scale. The main character of Nocturne is never getting into Mercs because he'd solo everything.

He almost got into M4, actually. He didn't mostly because 'lolnumbers' with the superweek!

How the fuck did they justify that. Was he mid game level or something?

https://pastebin.com/GwAT8Y5p

See for yourself. P sure that's a pretty much endgame build except for the lack of the Masakados magatama.
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Here's my issue with Crono feats like "He sliced through a tank"

Yes, that's fairly impressive.

It's also a feat against a fairly immobile object.

A tank isn't going to dodge, it isn't going to parry, it isn't going to counterattack. It's the same reason something like "The guy slices through mountains" isn't that impressive in a one-on-one fight. Mountains ain't fightin' back like another character does.

It's why I don't so easily take Crono over SC characters in a fight with no magic. Crono doesn't have many (any?) feats that are outright applicable to the situation. Like, yeah, Crono slices through a tank. But then doesn't his fight with another knight actually... Take some effort?
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Cutting through a mountain's impressive as a showing of destructive capability tbqh

does need some accuracy hype elsewhere tho, agreed
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Lopen posted...

Are you paying any attention here seriously

yes, which is why saying that "they look the part" is odd because you've strongly defended Tira, who absolutely does not.

so far we've established that you value:
- training from fighting game characters, even if they do or don't look the part.
- singular feats from fighting game characters
- attack animations

but you do not value:
- training from Crono
- singular feats from Crono
- actual cutscenes from the game showing Crono moving at high speeds in a cutscene showing of an attack animation
- attack animations in the gameplay from Chrono Trigger
- lore from Chrono Trigger


i'm paying attention pretty well and what i'm getting is that you're the anti-PIMP.

Lopen posted...

Yes. Because it's at odds with the rest of the FMV and it's DBZ slop animation. This isn't really that strange. It's the same reason Kirby doesn't get planet busting strength credit.

"Crono is capable of high bursts of speed" is not "at odds" with the rest of anything. that's a normal thing, across multiple video games or other pieces of fiction, and is consistent with what the rest of the game shows you in attacks (Crono is fast) and gameplay (Crono is with a high speed stat). this is an attack that he uses in the game in exactly the same way it's shown to you in the cutscene. so... yes, what you're doing IS strange. hell, you're comparing it to Kirby in a side mini game. what you're seeing there in the CT opening is... what you see in the game. in a same game where he cuts through metal with his sword early on, in a game where a frog gains a magical sword and cuts through a mountain, somehow you refuse to believe that Crono is capable of extreme bursts of speed even when it's shown to you in a cutscene.

yeah, that's fucking weird dude.
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The tank feats impressive because it's low level early game gear.
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Well I mean, I mainly think of the tank stab in terms of "Yeah, this guy just planted a crappy sword through solid metal, he's pretty dang strong", not having anything to do with the tank moving around
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Tira's lore absolutely looks the part. She was raised as an assassin since birth. Crono is a guy who:

Starts the game with lore of some kid who owns a cat
Gets no real montage of any sort
Has no real 1v1 feats

Basically you're saying I should take his FMV burst of speed animation to mean something when

His natural speed shown in game looks unimpressive
His speed in the FMV outside that DBZ vanish is unimpressive
He does nothing whatsoever in the plot to validate this speed burst.

There's no PIMP here. CT is just bad at hyping its characters. That's all.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

No, it's really not. >_>

Like for reference, SMT jobberony demons suplex subway trains. Like you know those bullet-shaped ones? Yeah, those. Dante is a high-level ally for the SMT3 Nocturne main character, whose power level is unreal. It's so high that he's a bonus boss in another game where your party is a bunch of 5/weeks who do things like outfly fighter jets on pure speed alone and he can stomp you flat into the dirt anyway. The music that plays there is literally his random encounter theme to hammer home just how insignificant THAT game's party is to him. SMT has a high power level, is what I'm saying.

backing this up here, Dante's showing in SMT: Nocturne is honestly his 3rd best showing.
2nd would be the idea that he'd be at all relevant to Jedah in Capcom Fighting Evolution. like... it's implied that Dante's going to fight him and win at the end.
1st goes to the Project X Zone situation where for some reason he's talking about Jedah, teaming with Morrigan, etc like he belongs in the highest tier of that cast naturally.

he always looks best in his crossovers.
granted, they do all take place after DMC2, which is canonically the last game of the series and we will never, ever get to it.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

See for yourself. P sure that's a pretty much endgame build except for the lack of the Masakados magatama.

this is stupid.
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MenuWars posted...

The tank feats impressive because it's low level early game gear.

But it's still against an object that wasn't really moving. Again, it's a tank, not another fighter. Another fighter will dodge, counter attack, parry, etc. A tank doesn't do those things. So while it's a nice showing of power... It doesn't really apply very well to a one-on-one fight with a capable fighter.
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I think Lopen just buried Crono forever tbh, abandon merc abandon merc. Lmao.
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The FMV burst of speed is nice, sure

But then earlier in that same FMV, Crono is having a one-on-one sword fight and showing very little actual skill that'd be on par with somebody from the SC universe. >_>
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Honestly that Tank is of questionable quality anyway. It's from well before the tech of legit tanks and the general feeling of that whole segment is kinda that the castle is full of buffoons. Do we actually know he cut through it or did he hit it till it fell apart.
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Yeah but I can't take Lopen's arguments remotely seriously after his saying Snake would beat Selvaria, so it all works out
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DeathChicken posted...

If I recall Arena's story correctly Yu actually loses to Labrys, then Aigis kicks her ass to save him. He's pretty much made out to be a step below P3 Guy in combat (actually all of the P3 folks are implied to be a step above the P4 bunch just due to experience)

This is mostly irrelevant to the topic at hand, BUT in the official manga adaptation of Persona 4 Arena, Yu beats Akihiko, but then loses to Yosuke. In fact, Yosuke more or less solos the Persona 4 cast, he and Aigis are the ones left standing at the end

Yosuke for Mercs
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Selvaria is literally a MGS boss.
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Lopen posted...

Basically you're saying I should take his FMV burst of speed animation to mean something when

His natural speed shown in game looks unimpressive
His speed in the FMV outside that DBZ vanish is unimpressive
He does nothing whatsoever in the plot to validate this speed burst.

- except for the times when his speed in the game is impressive, like Confuse or X Strike, which is the dual tech the cutscene is showing off in animated form and not a random thing.
- for being "unimpressive" outside of that, he's actually keeping up with Ayla while scaling the mountain. meaning that despite her jumping up rocks and being physically superior to him, he's kept up with her and you can see him reach the top of that mountain a few seconds behind her. which once again plays up him being strong and fast.
- in plot, he's been training too. but you don't seem to value that aspect.
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Starts the game with lore of some kid who owns a cat

There's no coming back from this, for me the humours killed him to me. Fuck.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1Sb9CZEz9A&feature=youtu.be&t=1m04s

I mean, yeah, this is decent and I'd put him above some, but... It certainly doesn't sell me on him being much better than Tira.
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That's doubly hilarious since Yosuke is Yu's first fight in Arena and after losing Yosuke says something like "Jesus dude try holding back, you almost killed me"
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DeathChicken posted...

That's doubly hilarious since Yosuke is Yu's first fight in Arena and after losing Yosuke says something like "Jesus dude try holding back, you almost killed me"

You have to go with canon for fighting game lore otherwise everyone beats everyone else and it's all meaningless.
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Story mode in Arena is a little odd since...well, it's obviously Yu's chapter so he's going to beat everyone, but the dialogue tends to reflect how the fight probably went in 'canon', like Yu commenting on Chie beating him silly. And everyone insulting poor Yukiko
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StealThisSheen posted...

But then earlier in that same FMV, Crono is having a one-on-one sword fight and showing very little actual skill that'd be on par with somebody from the SC universe. >_>

to be fair, that's probably even before the tank. that's the route to the castle and he's only teaming with Marle. it's before the journey even began since that's the only time the two are alone together.

after that you've got the rest of the game, him fighting better enemies, better training, sparring partners, unlocked magic, etc.
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Crono's training is assumed via level ups but never really hammered home as something that has happened
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Lopen posted...

Crono's training is assumed via level ups but never really hammered home as something that has happened

Eh that's a stretch the training is reflected in the quality of the enemies he fights. Which once again means Lavos undersells it.
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DeathChicken posted...

That's doubly hilarious since Yosuke is Yu's first fight in Arena and after losing Yosuke says something like "Jesus dude try holding back, you almost killed me"

The manga presents Yosuke in an extremely good light actually - basically he's really strong but his personality deficits hold him back. He nearly one-shots Chie and Yukiko when he finally works up the motivation to fight him. Yu is a close match, and he has an assist because Yu took a bad hit from Akihiko in their fight, but yeah he wins that too. In the final fight against Shadow Labrys, he sucks in the beginning because of his self-doubt but once his friends cheer him up he fights almost on par with Aigis in their joint effort to defeat Labrys.

Also, some of the other results that happened there:
Aigis > Kanji
Mitsuru > Naoto

Yu > Akihiko was also a nailbiter. So yeah, in general I think P3 is supposed to be stronger. They have more experience and were in harsher conditions.
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<_< the opening also has Crono visibly training with the standard anime trope of "swinging your sword a bunch of times in the morning."

the same training that guys like Guts use.
and i'm pretty sure Frog, after meeting Crono says he'd love to train/spar with the guy. considering they're together not long after that, pretty sure it's reasonable to say they do. Ayla also likes to fight a lot and would train with him, whether he'd want to or not.
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I'm not saying he didn't train, just that it's not really a plot point per se. It has less weight for that reason -- it's not training as much as bog standard RPG protag progression which well, most have much higher starting points or notable power spike points that Crono doesn't get.
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DeathChicken posted...

Story mode in Arena is a little odd since...well, it's obviously Yu's chapter so he's going to beat everyone, but the dialogue tends to reflect how the fight probably went in 'canon', like Yu commenting on Chie beating him silly. And everyone insulting poor Yukiko

Funny thing about that - I checked some of the end fight quotes in Ultimax recently, and everyone in there is terrified of Yukiko, about as much as they're scared of someone like Mitsuru. Even in victory people go "OH MY GOD SHE BURNED EVERYTHING"

Some other tidbits from that:

-Yosuke's foot-in-mouth syndrome makes a lot of people shittalk him, but on the rare moments they comment on his strength they talk about how strong he is, Elizabeth in particular mentions that
-Everyone is impressed like crazy with Yu
-People are terrified of Mitsuru
-Of course, people are terrified of the Velvet Room chicks even more
-Junpei is by far the most shit on, all people talk about is how telegraphed and wonky his attacks are
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Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Crono isn't good. He has feats of raw power and bursts of raw speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA5LTWiJkKU&feature=youtu.be&t=78

I'm just saying he doesn't have fighting feats that show the skill, reaction times, and so on of people like this. And that's early in the series.
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Oh, and both in the manga and in the Ultimax quotes Aigis/Labrys are considered very strong. Aigis stomps Kanji once she gets serious.
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Don't bring Persona up when it comes to reaction times, because the main line games undersell pretty much everything accomplished by the mangas and arena. Unless P3 is much different. Stopping to have conversations mid fight, leeeeeeeeeengthy attack animations, mostly by their foes that they just sit there and do nothing about. It's ridiculous.
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Everyone stomps poor Kanji, at least in Arena. He's nearly everyone's first boss
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I like how Joker is the very definition of a legit 5 upkeep merc in P5 but people always actin' like they be scrubs.

With all that said, I think that's overselling things somewhat. The Phantom Thieves are awful thieves that get forced into fights constantly, but they still try to focus more on stealth and sneaking around than combat. The P3 group is specifically a shadow extermination group with more experience so I still put them a cut above.
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Lopen posted...

I'm not saying he didn't train, just that it's not really a plot point per se.

so how do other characters like Frog go from needing a team to barely scrape by Magus, to being able to solo him 1 on 1?

i mean they got better, stronger, trained seems like the logical answer. it also serves as a clear plot point where the story said "at this point in the game, the main cast is as strong if not stronger than Magus."

StealThisSheen posted...

I'm just saying he doesn't have fighting feats that show the skill, reaction times, and so on of people like this. And that's early in the series.

taki's one of those that i'd take over him without magic. with it... closer fight, depends on where they're at/what they're doing. but she should be capable of dealing with his higher speed. most of the rest shown there, they'd lose.

the main thing cutscene X Strike shows is that some of those attacks really are going to be very literal translations between FMV cutscene and gameplay move. it's the exact same thing. so that then gets you to the rest of his moveset - what would be practical, what wouldn't. well, Confuse would be. its focus is speed. and that'd be one of the main techniques to overcome with him if we're talking just a sword fight.
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DeathChicken posted...

Everyone stomps poor Kanji, at least in Arena. He's nearly everyone's first boss

Which is really weird as he solos a biker gang before even getting a Persona. He got worf'd in the fighting games badly.

Also, I would say what people's Ultimax comments on Akihiko were but basically all anyone comments on is his lack of a shirt. Same with Yukari and her superhero outfit. Teddie and Marie are just considered weird. People respect Chie but she isn't in the upper tier.
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