Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku/Yu/Bass. EXE/Wrex vs. Dizzy/Flynn/ Selvaria/Jaesa

(+) Yeah! (+)

Wouldnt Bass be at quadruple speed?
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Maybe. Depends how you interpret the language.

I consider haste to be +100% speed. Doubling the potency of the buff would be +200% speed, or a tripling. Idea being that you don't add the base params that are being doubled again.

But like, if you take it to mean "it's like he gets buffed twice and the buff is laid upon the buffed form" well then Bass would get quad speed.

For the record he'd also get 12.25x damage from Power Charge if you take it that way so I highly encourage that interpretation! (though I feel like that's beyond overkill level damage over 6x over anyone that's not Dizzy anyway so...)
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The other cool thing about Bass here is he has a Kirby style moveset fitting Lilith. What that means exactly is up to interpretation, but at minimum I would give him Phasewalk, Lilith's trademark move, which would allow him to move even faster, turn invisible, and unleash a nasty phase blast upon exiting the walk. Seems perfect for making that 6x (or 12.25x) attack hit home in a HUGE way.
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I don't personally think Haste is better than stacked SMT Sukukaja. Like, you're saying it is on the basis of getting more turns flat out, but if that's the barometer, Sukukaja kinda does the same thanks to press turn system. They're getting more turns from dodging attacks and countering, and losing less turns from missing, in addition to the obvious advantage of avoiding damage and dealing damage. It's unclear what combination of increase to speed or reflexes it actually is, but it's a pretty significant buff either way just by results. Could potentially beat missing twice as much, since Haste doesn't increase accuracy.

Stamina Tablet is much stronger than Doping, though. And Bass's LifeAura overrides elemental weaknesses (that's the whole gimmick of LifeAura), so he'd need to get his barrier dropped first to capitalize on the fire weakness. Funny enough, Nanashi or the archangel Michael actually have piercing Fire attacks, but Flynn can't get them even fully kitted out from DLC or 4A, he has to stick to Almighty for piercing..
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I'm just going to list out all the buffs in a single post for reference

Team Bass: [these buffs are doubled on Bass]
Rikku - 2x HP, Haste, Protect, Tetrakarn (reflects next physical attack)
Bass - Power Charge (next physical attack does 250% damage)

[Rikku immune to wind, weak to elec]
[Bass immune to ice/light, weak to fire]

Team Dizzy:
Flynn - Luster Candy (+atk/def/agi), +30% HP
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okay that said, I am not sure on the match. initial impression was that Team Dizzy was much more powerful, but phasewalking ice-immune double buff Bass.EXE is pretty serious
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if 2x hp is doubled it effectively becomes 4x hp right?
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MenuWars posted...

if 2x hp is doubled it effectively becomes 4x hp right?

Up to interpretation. You can think of it as either +100% x2 or 2x x2.
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It further cements my position on the vote either way really. Bass is pretty tanky without all that extra health, and I'd already factored in for his insane speed with double haste.

No idea how Tetrakarn would work with the doubling (does he take two attacks and reflect two attacks per attack?)

Just seems crazy either way. I'm gonna need to see some horrendous feats from Dizzy to consider swapping.
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I'm not sure if this has been posted here, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkrTslVbgas&feature=youtu.be&t=52s

That is something Dizzy can do without really trying, and without wanting to hurt someone. If she actually wants to kill the other team, I think it's over. Dizzy used to have a problem where her personality got in the way of her power, but in spite of what that move shows I believe the actual story mode shows Dizzy much more willing to use her power against adversaries if it is to help her friends or teammates. Question is, is that motivation enough for her to go all out though?
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Drakeryn posted...

Bass - Power Charge (next physical attack does 250% damage)

+250% just to be clear, so 350% total. Which yeah doubled is 600% or 1225% depending on how you take double buffs.
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GANON1025 posted...

I'm not sure if this has been posted here, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkrTslVbgas&feature=youtu.be&t=52s

That is something Dizzy can do without really trying, and without wanting to hurt someone. If she actually wants to kill the other team, I think it's over. Dizzy used to have a problem where her personality got in the way of her power, but in spite of what that move shows I believe the actual story mode shows Dizzy much more willing to use her power against adversaries if it is to help her friends or teammates. Question is, is that motivation enough for her to go all out though?

Impressive, but they're in a cave. Not so great for nukes unless she can tank what gives out, also this seemed like a super move that would require charging... am I right about that?
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GANON1025 posted...

I'm not sure if this has been posted here, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkrTslVbgas&feature=youtu.be&t=52s

That is something Dizzy can do without really trying, and without wanting to hurt someone. If she actually wants to kill the other team, I think it's over. Dizzy used to have a problem where her personality got in the way of her power, but in spite of what that move shows I believe the actual story mode shows Dizzy much more willing to use her power against adversaries if it is to help her friends or teammates. Question is, is that motivation enough for her to go all out though?

The problem with that in an actual fight:

1. In am actual fight Gamma Ray has a lot of windup/Telegraph time, knocks Dizzy on her ass, and is a hyper/instant kill meaning it can't be used easily or frequently
2. It's unclear whether that should be taken at face value. Guilty Gear Instant Kills are always a bit ridiculous. Bridget for example, someone who's bottom tier in Guilty Gear power level, literally throws someone into the moon.
3. As menu said terrain isn't great for it.
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I bigger GG expert can probably answer this better, but I believe there is enough story/lore showings to show that Dizzy outside of fight game mechanics can shoot of things like that without the need to charge meter, or even charge at all. What stops her from going all out, as I understand it, is her personality in some of the games.
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GANON1025 posted...

I bigger GG expert can probably answer this better, but I believe there is enough story/lore showings to show that Dizzy outside of fight game mechanics can shoot of things like that without the need to charge meter, or even charge at all. What stops her from going all out, as I understand it, is her personality in some of the games.

Not on that level, really. Dizzy has a lot of Word of God hype and the fact that she held off an army of gears for a while as her big things. As far as 'effortlessly destroying mountains with impunity' it's less clear. Like I said it's an Instant Kill -- it's not completely infeasible to the point of being laughable like Bridgets's since Dizzy does get hype as pretty powerful but it shouldn't be taken as hard evidence even if she would try gamma ray in the fight, which she probably doesn't

I also think that despite huge destructive power tagging Bass with gamma ray is basically impossible with his speed and its windup time.
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That isn't a Gamma Ray, the attack just before it in that video is, and it's a normal super move where both weapons attack creating a giant laser. Whilst not practical, that IK at least shows the kind of power Dizzy is capable of, especially when driven to desperation and her weapons kind of take over (they're capable of possessing her in dire moments which causes her 'personality' to do a complete 180 and go for the kill).

There's an alternate future caused by I-No time travelling and resulting in a young Ky dying, where Dizzy takes over as leader of the Gears when Justice dies. That's where Sol Badguy, regarded as the strongest character in GG, leads an all-or-nothing attack on her along with a fleet of warships. She destroys all of them, and is still alive after a nuclear explosion lands on her. Peak power Dizzy is serious business. It'd take both Wrex and Bass a while to wear her down, and all the while she has all that destructive force available to her.
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Aside from Revelator's story mode (which ArcSys scours from the internet like mad), the only other thing Dizzy really has is backstory (being daughter of Justice/Sol), word of god, and Drama CDs. Only real showing from that is an alternate timeline Dizzy where if Ky had died in the first war, Dizzy would pick up as the Command Gear after Justice's death and does things like use Gamma Ray as an opener that's reported to destroy half of humanity's airship fleet in that one blast.

Xrd Signs includes things like Johnny creating non-stop mist-finer slashes singlehandedly across a football field sized area to prevent warp-spam while someone else fights Bedman, and Bedman vs Slayer actually resulting in mountain-busting (and like, full vaporization instead of just breaking). Dizzy also overpowers Justice, and either her or Ramlethal have a good cutscene or two against the anti-matter gears. Power level is pretty ridiculous in general on GG.
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Regardless of whether it's Gamma Ray or not (I'm pretty sure it is, just maybe a souped up one) there is still the question of how relevant it is in an actual fight since as I said the windup is real and the terrain/situation/personality (she's not full pacifist but she's still Dizzy) don't really facilitate her big attacks.
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Lopen posted...

Also I'm not sure auto-pinpoint really does what Luis is claiming anyway. Like... in the game, how it works is if you autobattle against a guy you hit the weakness. So like, if he attacks a dude autopinpoint would tell him their weakness but I don't really think he's gonna gather the weaknesses of everyone at once.

It's kind of a weird thing in a real time environment.

This is basically how I interpreted it when I bought the upgrade. Flynn's gauntlet will tell him what everybody is weak against but he doesn't just auto use those attacks instinctively because auto-combat is a gameplay mechanic I don't see transferring to realtime.

Still pretty handy.
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Dizzy has enough power to duplicate a super storm in Xrd, which stuns and disables a megazord sized version of Justice. She's definitely got solid feats, not just drama cds.
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I'm not saying Dizzy isn't powerful just that the majority of her high end stuff isn't terribly relevant in a mercs battle cause of the scale and other limitations like terrain, personality, and the telegraphed nature of her really big stuff.
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Right, but like, most of her stuff doesn't ever get shown to have a chargetime in the Xrd or Revelator cutscenes she's in. She blows up a bigass Gear instantly, for example, and in the Justice instance she only needs a few seconds to unleash a big boom.
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How much fighting and such did Dizzy do prior to those attacks in the cutscenes? I'm a firm believer of fighting game characters needing to build up to their big super moves since it just makes sense.
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In most games, I'd tentatively agree, but in Guilty Gear you build meter by literally just running at your opponent. If any universe can throw out supers willy-nilly, it's that one.
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StealThisSheen posted...

How much fighting and such did Dizzy do prior to those attacks in the cutscenes? I'm a firm believer of fighting game characters needing to build up to their big super moves since it just makes sense.

A whopping 0, particularly for the one where she cuts loose vs Justice. The setup is that Justice has awakened as a badass megazord with a super hard to pierce defense and the heroes use a combination of a powerful storm called St. Elmo's Fire and Dizzy's powers to pierce the barrier and disable Justice, so Sol can then finish the job. Taking stuff from the script here...

PARADIGM: Please, your Majesty, calm down. Chronus' ultimate goal is to
activate Justice, and then bind his soul to that vessel. This sort of binding
also requires a great deal of energy, so they will likely try to do them both
at once. Chronus' body is already within Justice.

SOL: Makes sense.

PARADIGM: Exactly. Therefore I propose we amplify the energy from St. Elmo's
strike, and overload the system!

Later on, it's confirmed somebody with power on the level of Sol (read: MASSIVE) is needed, but he can't do it himself cause he needs to stop the bad guy. Hence Dizzy comes in.

SOL: Look birdbrain, if you're trying to amp up St. Elmo's Fire, you gotta
generate that extra umph somehow, and you and me know I'm the man for that job.

PARADIGM: Would that I had the luxury, but then I would have no one capable of
removing Chronus from Justice. That is something only you can do.

SOL: Fine. What's your plan, then?

Shit goes kind of awry, but Dizzy does her job and megazord Justice ends up stunned and weakened enough that Sol can take it from there.

[The bolt of lightning strikes at the tower as Justice seems to be fully charge
after absorbing it, as she gives a roar. Chronus on the other hand is pleased
with his plan.]

CHRONUS: Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Finally! Victory is ours! Do you see this,
Universal Will?! And you, Gear Maker! All that you've demanded will be done, by
our hands! Whatever you may think, ultimate power is now ours! HA HA HA HA HA!
*Short pause* What?!

PARADIGM: NOW!

DIZZY: Right!

[It seems Dizzy conjures enough energy, creating a laser energy beam at the
control room, which causes Justice to wail in pain. Even Chronus.]

CHRONUS: N-No! Gaaaaaah! What is this...?! No! It's too much! Too much! D-DAMN
YOU...PARADIGM...! Guuuh... Is this it? The end...?

LIBRARIA: We've been defeated. It's over. I hate to think that we were wrong,
but...in the end, we must reap what we sow. This is retribution.

Oh, and for reference? This is the superstorm that Dizzy needs to amp, to give you an idea of how big her power is without so much as even a little bit of fighting.

KY: Correct. In the unlikely event that St. Elmo's Fire were to fall on
populated area, the casualties would be tremendous. In truth, it could easily
destroy an entire city. That is why mankind has built a lightning rod to
attract it.

So yeah, she can just do massssssive burst at a whim.
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I think assuming no wind up or charge times or meter requirements based on that text is kind of a jump. Particularly because it contradicts every showing of her big attacks in the games.
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Does anyone know anything about Jaesa.
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Kinglicious posted...

Does anyone know anything about Jaesa.

What do you need to know Wang? Maybe I can help.

Lopen posted...

I think assuming no wind up or charge times or meter requirements based on that text is kind of a jump. Particularly because it contradicts every showing of her big attacks in the games.

No meter requirement is no jump - she does it from a noncombat situation. It does have a bit of windup though - which makes sense because Dizzy is summoning her full power there. The point is to illustrate that for Dizzy, 'city buster+' is her top end, so even much weaker attacks are seriously way outta everyone's league except maybe Bass.

...Also uh

Did I miss something or has the fact Yu has Debilitate not been argued at all? You know, the debuff that lowers everything Luster Candy boosts and would thus strongly weaken Dizzy with no counter? That Debilitate? Why the heck is Yu being argued as a healer and not a debuffer here?
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As a frame of reference because the arguments for Dizzy have increased my respect. Who would none buffed Bass be able to 1 v 1 at the top end?
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Honestly internally I hadn't been thinking of debilitate as opposite Luster Candy but I guess it is, so yeah that's pretty good too particularly after Flynn is down.

Also while Dizzy's top end stuff is that strong that doesn't automatically extend to her lower end. Generally the high level super attacks are more than a few levels above their standard attacks and I frankly don't think Dizzy's presented as someone who is one shooting with normals.
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Debilitate's single target in P4, temporary, and it'd have to go through stacked Luster Candies (even in Persona, buffs/debuffs go in stages instead of overwriting). Norn also comes with elec weakness like Isis, which is Maziodyne bait. Probably isn't the best move, even if he knows Dizzy is the prime target among all the other women + Flynn.
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Super Bass
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Dizzy generally doesn't enter one shot everything mode very often, though she's matured from it since X and XX.

As for anything I'm curious on, honestly it seems like she's entirely ignored here. Which makes sense since it's the MMO and like 3 people here have played it at all around here. There's just nothing I'm seeing on a Jedi which is weird in a match that cares for range, talks about a teammate wind-up, and "triple HP." The last of which hasn't really been examined either as it's not 2 or 3 times the durability but more stamina. Defense is still the same so if it'd slice through you like butter, more HP may not be particularly relevant.
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Big beefy buffed Bass
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And yes, you can cue that as an intro to "wtf does double HP actually mean" since that's been completely ignored. Durability is hardness, we apply this even in real life. HP is something else. I'd call it more like stamina. It does come off a bit more like a volume sort of measurement too but I mean... If your level of durability is "get sliced in half," more "HP" doesn't help you survive that. Same way decapitation doesn't really care for it, that's all durability. Damage would vary based on where you're hit and how hard you're hit.
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yeah after second thought

bass, but just barely
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big mouth (neptune) and bass

i know nep isn't fighting

but I wanted the pun
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FFDragon posted...

big mouth (neptune) and bass

i know nep isn't fighting

but I wanted the pun

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Johnbobb posted...

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If you want a bad pun it should be something like Rikku and Forte.
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Bass seems way too good when buffed, and it's not in Dizzy's personality to just nuke right away
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Still not sure about this match.

Like, suppose we take buffed Bass vs. buffed Dizzy in a vacuum. Bass probably gets first strike due to phasewalking. Dizzy is likely to respond with ice (her iconic element), which Bass can probably no-sell and punish. So that's pretty good. But if Dizzy survives that (which she probably does?) then she switches to fire, and that puts Bass in a lot of trouble. I have a lot more general combat respect for Dizzy and I think landing super-effective attacks she may well take even a buffed Bass.

But of course we're not in a vacuum which complicates things a lot.
- Bass might not even go for Dizzy first. I feel like he could plausibly use his first phasewalk strike on any of Dizzy/Selvaria/Jaesa (probably not Flynn though, he looks like a random swordie mook).
- Debilitate srs bsns
- But, on the other hand, I have way more respect for Dizzy's backup than Bass' backup. (this is taking Jaesa as "generic Jedi who gets wrecked by Revan but Revan is really good so that's not too bad a showing" - would like to hear more about her too)
- Also Yu with Auto-Pinpoint could well find out Bass' fire weakness and tell Dizzy so she has the upper hand from the beginning.
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Does anyone in that vote rush know anything about the Jedi at all or is she someone being completely ignored?
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Kinglicious posted...

Does anyone in that vote rush know anything about the Jedi at all or is she someone being completely ignored?

Unless she's better than Revan and has solo hunter assassin type personality I don't see her doing much but getting exploded by Bass when he comes out of Phasewalk.
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Being worse than Revan doesn't help because it's not talking about her individual capabilities. Jedi vary in skills they're good at, some are better with the force for melee, range, strategy, precog, or use the force in unique ways. But if none of that is known then it's pretty scummy to vote. That's essentially just ignoring the character.
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MenuWars posted...

Unless she's better than Revan and has solo hunter assassin type personality I don't see her doing much but getting exploded by Bass when he comes out of Phasewalk.

But Bass only gets one phasewalk hit, right? If he's using his first strike to explode Jaesa, then he's visible again, and Flynn can be all "yo he's weak to fire" and then he's kind of in trouble.
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I looked into Jaesa for a half hour prior to week 41 in M4 and could not find a single worthwhile feat
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Drakeryn posted...

MenuWars posted...

Unless she's better than Revan and has solo hunter assassin type personality I don't see her doing much but getting exploded by Bass when he comes out of Phasewalk.

But Bass only gets one phasewalk hit, right? If he's using his first strike to explode Jaesa, then he's visible again, and Flynn can be all "yo he's weak to fire" and then he's kind of in trouble.

Not at the Speed a double hasted Bass is moving at no.
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MenuWars posted...

Unless she's better than Revan and has solo hunter assassin type personality I don't see her doing much but getting exploded by Bass when he comes out of Phasewalk.

And what if she's worse than Revan but would be particularly good at countering this, either due to precog or due to phasewalk not working since he would be felt or seen somehow? Or if she's the type who "gets lucky" and wouldn't be in a position where the worst option happens (a slight twist of precog that is more distant and not immediate for combat)?

If you don't know her capabilities why should any strategy work? The Force is an ass pull of a power, you can associate 20+ things to it and result in 20+ different characters.
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Jaesa best I can understand it from my brief looking into her should be taken as the bog standard lowest level Sith-- she's basically in the game as a romance option and early game plot point, no real strong characterization on fighting style or feats to speak of. Sith Apprentice kinda speaks to her proficiency as well-- she's a fairly low level learning Sith. Like if you need a random hand who has a lightsaber and some basic force proficiency, yeah, cool, but I wouldn't expect her to pull any heroics by herself. Basically like, I envision her as Empire Luke at the top level-- but again this isn't with much authority, just with what I could dig up without trying too much.

As for Bass's phase walk, see no reason why he could only do it once. Cooldown is 36 seconds, which while difficult for Lilith to survive, Bass is so meaty here getting another one off isn't too unreasonable.
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