Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku/Yu/Bass. EXE/Wrex vs. Dizzy/Flynn/ Selvaria/Jaesa

(+) Yeah! (+)

Rikku, Yu Narukami, Bass.EXE and Urdnot Wrex have challenged Dizzy, Flynn, Selvaria Bles and Jaesa Willsaam to a fight! Location of the fight: Naraku - A multi-floored dungeon, with all the demons cleared out of it. Access to Mikado or beyond Minotaur's door is not allowed. Attackers and defenders will start at the dungeon starting point and exit, respectively.. Which side will win?


Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

-Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
-You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
-Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
-If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
-This match will end in 24 hours.
-The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480#2

Rikku is as she appears in Final Fantasy X, equipped with Godhand and a Tercio without SOS Reflect. She has access to her own sphere grid. She has brought 5 each of Chocobo Feather, Al Bhed Potion, Stamina Tablet, Light Curtain and Mana Tablet to battle and can use any combination of them with Use or her Mix Overdrive, provided sufficient Overdrive has been built. She may freely use her Persona Isis, as it appears in Persona 4, who has only their natural non-passive skills and elemental affinities, and is being accompanied by Neptune.

Neptune is as she appears in Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1, at max level and with her best non-broken skills and equipment. She may activate her HDD form at any time, and whilst she cannot use Linked attacks, EX Finishers and EXE Drive skills can be used once the EXE Drive Gauge has been built up. Throughout the fight she will relentlessly pester Rikku, recounting anecdotes, trying to hug them, asking stupid questions and will generally be a nuisance. The more prickly her target, the deeper her desire to win them over with fastidious cuteness. She will not take any offensive actions and won't be attacked by any fighters in the match. She will simply leave if Rikku falls in battle.

Yu Narukami (MC) is as he appears in Persona 4. He has the persona Izanagi available, with all default skills from P4 learned in addition to all the moves from Persona 4 Arena, with the exception of his mortal blow or gameplay mechanics (invincibility frames, etc). He also can freely switch to his persona Norn, who only has their natural non-passive skills and elemental affinities.
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Bass.EXE is as he appears in the Megaman Battle Network series, with access to all the moves and properties of his Omega forms (including Bass Omega GS), though if any of his barriers/auras is destroyed, he loses access to all of them for the rest of the fight. He can operate here same as he does on the Net. He may freely use his persona Vishnu, as it appears in Persona 4, who only has their natural non-passive skills and elemental affinities.He has also inhaled Lilith from Borderlands 2, gaining a set of moves fitting her. Whenever Bass.EXE receives a buff any parameters of it (i. e. duration, potency) are doubled.

Urdnot Wrex is as he appears in the Mass Effect series, with all of his available talents from Mass Effect 1 at maximum level. He comes to battle equipped with the M-300 Claymore Shotgun (with Shredder Mod V), the Graal Spike Thrower Shotgun (with Omni Blade V), and the Striker Assault Rifle (with Magazine Upgrade V), all as they appear in Mass Effect 3.

~VS~

Flynn is as he appears by the end of Shin Megami Tensei IV, equipped with only the Plasma Sword, Plasma Gun, Almighty Rounds, White King armor set, and Hero Earrings. The only skills he has are all -dyne level elemental spells, Great Logos, Luster Candy, Doping and Salvation. The only apps he has are MP Recovery 2 and Auto-Pinpoint, and he cannot summon.

Jaesa Willsaam is as seen in SW:TOR, using her best equipment, fully leveled and with access to all of her role skills and other abilities, as well as cutscene powers (though no mind control or anything else that would fall under the 'broken' clause).

Selvaria Bles is as seen in Valkyria Chronicles, with access to her Valkyrur lance and shield as well as her Rhum machine gun. She cannot use her Valkyrur Flame self destruct power.

Dizzy is as she appears in the Guilty Gear series, at the height of her powers, with access to all her moves other than gameplay mechanics, and she will not self destruct upon defeat.

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One hell of an intro boss is awaiting Yu's party at the top of this dungeon...FIGHT!
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@Lopen
@Luis_Sera89

The floor is yours.
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Lopen's argument:

No doubt the enemy team will hype the buffs Luster Candy and Doping

Here's why it doesn't matter. BASS's team has better buffs, and a very strong opening strategy that gets threats off the field fast.

Buffs:
Stamina Tablet. Doubles Max HP. Never expires in battle. (Triples on Bass) Huge significance on Wrex and BASS in particular as they have huge HP pools to start, relative to their less beefy enemies.
Chocobo Feather. Haste. Nuff said. Generally a more significant speed boost than SMT speed buffs, never mind the extra effectiveness on BASS.
Light Curtain. Protect. This probably isn't priority, but if it gets off every bit helps.
Power Charge. From Vishnu. Bass's next physical attack will do a bonus 250% damage. In the SMT series, guns are considered physical. So with double potency and duration you're looking at 6x damage on his first two attacks. That's OHKO level.
Tetrakarn. From Isis. First physical attack is reflected-- double duration means that's two attacks. Double potency arguably means it's being reflected at twice the strength. Against Dizzy or Selvaria this could be fairly lethal as their damage output is much higher than their durability.

Meanwhile, at the start of the fight, Wrex has a lot of CC to contribute. He can remove Dizzy or Selvaria from the fight for a good while with Stasis, and Throw lets him hurl someone and likely knock em down on top of that. Warp will greatly increase any damage inflicted to remaining targets, reducing defenses by 75% and dealing damage over time.

Also worth noting that Dizzy's offense is highly neutered. Due to personas Bass is immune to Ice and Light, Yu resists Ice, and Rikku reflects Ice. These elements, Ice in particular, compose a lot of Dizzy's offense, so she's going to be operating at much lower efficiency than normal.

Rikku's pretty chill. She could totally be the one trying to win someone over by being cute in a different world-- I don't see her being particularly distracted by Neptune's annoyance. If anything Neptune might be beneficial as a human shield as she bounces around Rikku while she's buffing and healing.

Yu and Rikku both have full heals, so cutting through Bass and Wrex will be a task here considering their increased durability and likelihood to draw aggro. This match will quickly become a 2v4, with one enemy being stasised and another being dead with 6x damage shots from BASS combined with Warp. Due to the huge durability on his team, Wrex likely gets a second round of his CC off, too.

There's also the issue of terrain and a sneak attack. I don't think stealth is exactly either team's strong suit, and having Wrex lead the way, it's kinda hard for any ambush to do a ton of damage as he can tank it and be healed to full, so I'd write that off too.

tl;dr
Fight is probably honest, no ambush
Dizzy's offense is iffy here as a lot of her more common ice based stuff hits on immunities
Wrex's team is way tankier, particularly with unlimited duration stamina tablets and double coverage on full heals.
Better buffs on Wrex's team, and a guy who gets double benefit from them
Wrex CC instantly removes an enemy from the fight. Bass obscene burst damage likely does too. Fight spirals out of control from there.
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Naraku is a fairly typical RPG dungeon. Lots of tight passageways and stairs, but it also has the odd large room, with a little more space to move around. The 4th Stratum, where Team Flynn starts is pretty cavernous.

https://youtu.be/6U3BJBkbzbA?t=9m50s

In short, it's the kind of terrain you want to creep around in, and getting the drop on the other team is huge. Unfortunately for Team Bass, there's someone with them who's relentlessly talkative, loud, and unintentionally scuppering any chance they have of being stealthy.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/928/011/832.jpg

This girl.

Flynn & co know Neptune is with the other team, and whether through design or not, they're going to hear her coming from where they're waiting, and thus, know when the enemy team is approaching, signalling when Flynn should be buffing (which include teamwide attack, defence, agility and maximum hp increases) as well as giving Selvaria an indication of when to wind up her bigger laser attacks.

Already starting on the backfoot, there's then the issue of personas, which Bass, Yu and Rikku are all carrying. They obviously provide many positives, but it also crucially gives each of them an elemental weakness; fire for Bass and lightning for Yu and Rikku. Ordinarily pointing this out would be far too meta and not something Team Flynn would know going into the fight, but the Auto-Pinpoint app does exactly that, instantly telling Flynn what weaknesses the enemy possesses so they can be capitalised on. SMT and Persona operate off of the same system, so Flynn has the tools to target weakpoints, and presumably so can Dizzy with her fire and lightning magic.

Speaking of which, Dizzy's offensive firepower is monstrous, and despite appearances, her durability is also a clear step ahead of anyone else in this fight. Baiken's katana, which cleaves through giant Gears in the GG story like butter, breaks when it strikes Dizzy's skin. A 20k ft fall only knocks her out. In an alternate 'what if' timeline, one Gamma Ray destroys an entire fleet of airships, and when one kamikaze dives her, triggering a nuclear explosion, she tanks that as well. Make no bones about it, a Dizzy "at the peak of her powers", who is motivated to fight, is terrifying. And here her stats are buffed further, with healing available from Flynn and Jaesa. 500% physical attacks from Bass are nothing to be trifled with, but it would take several on Dizzy to wear her down.

I think a flying Dizzy with her projectile-based game of magic and lasers lays waste to the other team, whilst drawing a lot of the fire as well, allowing Flynn to support more comfortably, switching between that and attacking with Agidyne/Ziodyne and Great Logos, which also happens to be the strongest AoE magic attack in the fight. Rikku and Yu are capable of healing, but I find it more likely they drop quicker than Dizzy's support does, whether in the inital ambush or over the course of the fight.

tl;dr - The presence of Neptune ensures Team Dizzy can get the drop on the other team in a terrain such as this. Auto-Pinpoint allows Flynn to capitalise on passive Persona weaknesses. Dizzy is by far the strongest fighter here, and has able back-up to boot.
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Rikku X Neptune is adorable and they would probably be besties
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Auto pinpoint and neptune being neptune is a really solid strategy


Leaning team flynn but will read further argumentz
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Autopinpoint is nice but I don't see the information being able to be processed and relayed quickly enough to be relevant. Especially since Flynn is one of the squishier targets and likely to be blasted with 600% damage attacks from bass on the quick, and Dizzy is probably put in Stasis to begin with, unable to process any information shared.
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Stasis kinda sux on robots tho
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Bass would get pissed off by Neptune but Rikku would love it.
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Stasis is bad against "armored" not "robots"

As a Gear Dizzy isn't really "armored" or a traditional robot in any sense of the word. She has a kid for crissakes.
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leaning Dizzy but not sure yet
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how good is jaesa wilsaam

like how does she do vs revan
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I don't see why Dizzy would be the obvious target for Stasis. If there are ranged attacks coming from three different sources, and Jaesa is the only one needing to close in to melee range, I would've thought the most likely one he'd aim at is the one jumping at him with a lightsaber.
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Also shouldnt dizzy have her nerf passive active?
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No, Haseo was KO;d.
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Also I'm not sure auto-pinpoint really does what Luis is claiming anyway. Like... in the game, how it works is if you autobattle against a guy you hit the weakness. So like, if he attacks a dude autopinpoint would tell him their weakness but I don't really think he's gonna gather the weaknesses of everyone at once.

It's kind of a weird thing in a real time environment.
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Oh
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when did rikku become the persona main character, forming all the s links
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Luis_Sera89 posted...

I don't see why Dizzy would be the obvious target for Stasis. If there are ranged attacks coming from three different sources, and Jaesa is the only one needing to close in to melee range, I would've thought the most likely one he'd aim at is the one jumping at him with a lightsaber.

Why would you use stasis on the one that has to waste time closing in instead of the ones already able to attack.

Dizzy is the one flying around and most mobile so IMO seems the best target at a glance.
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X_Dante_X posted...

when did rikku become the persona main character, forming all the s links

I'd play a Persona game starring Rikku.
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well i think ice resistance is the deciding factor here

Given Auto-Pinpoint is specifically given on character upgrade it's obviously supposed to have some kind of intended effect. Removing anything gameplay mechanicy and you're more or less left with 'Flynn automatically targets enemies with their elemental weaknesses'.

As for Jaesa and Revan, Revan is clearly a lot more experienced; Jaesa is a corrupted padawan at the end of her training, she's a lot more raw. I've always likened her to Obi-Wan Kenobi at the end of Episode 1, except dark side. They both use the same defensive, evasion-based lightsaber discipline.
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Also outside of stasis, Wrex's offense is very relevant here. His Striker Assault Rifle is going to be the quickest source of damage here outside of Bass dropping his 6x power blasts to start. I just don't really see this fight going very long at all. Keep in mind that Rikku can potentially load her entire team up with Tetrakarn before the fight as I believe it doesn't have an actual duration either beyond reflecting the next attack. A buncha reflected attacks (double potency and two attacks from Bass) early could be devastating in the opening skirmish.
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As someone who was always disappointed that no one took Rikku's buffs seriously, double HP Wrex and triple HP Bass are pretty scary.
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My status as a Dizzy mark is very well-known, but Stasis is a real thing...
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Luis_Sera89 posted...

Removing anything gameplay mechanicy and you're more or less left with 'Flynn automatically targets enemies with their elemental weaknesses'.

Right, I agree. I just question how quickly he's able to relay that information. Since in game you don't really get the weakness as much as attack it-- so like... if he blasts say Bass he would use Fire, then it would say "okay he's weak to fire" but then to get the other ones he'd need to cast vs them.

Also keep in mind Dizzy's fire attack options are extremely limited. She basically needs hypers to do that. And the autopinpoint app doesn't say immunities either, so Dizzy's ice based offense being neutered is still a big thing
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i think she gets a fire pillar and fire fish in xrd

Like basically, assuming the flying doom girl is stasis'd, how does the fight go for the next 12 or 15 seconds. Immediately it's a 4v3. I would say almost immediately after that it's a 4v2 as BASS's 600% damage attacks are going to make mulch out of another guy very quickly. At that point you've basically got two better attackers in Wrex + heavily buffed Bass, with support, against two other attackers.

This also assumes that Flynn even decides elemental spells are the right course of action. I feel like the odds of him using Great Logos or Support Spells might actually be higher, and maybe even better more often than not, with Great Logos doing overall better damage more often than not and only being foiled by Stamina Tablets + Full Party Heals on the other team.
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Tetrakarn doesn't seem like a very effective counter to the other team. The only source of 'physical' damage is Selvaria's machine gun. Everything else is magic based. That'll reflect the first one or two, what about all the others? Between the initial ambush and Rikku/Yu's low-ish durability in general, they aren't likely to be relevant for too long. I don't think you can underestimate the effect of being suckerpunched from an ambush when the teams are otherwise fairly evenly matched.

It's also worth noting that the more in danger Dizzy's life is, the more influence her weapon systems Necro and Undine are going to have in protecting her. Necro in particular is a total sadist and doesn't hesitate at all in nuking people threatening her. The lower her health gets the more damage she outputs.
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yeah i looked at it and most of her ice moves in x2 get corresponding fire moves in xrd LOL

HeroicGammaRay posted...

i think she gets a fire pillar and fire fish in xrd

Some brief googling says you're right-- although I'd still call ice her more "iconic" element and fire only has a particular effect on bass who's super tanky anyway.
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Salvation is a full party heal as well, and it also removes status effects.

Depending on your mileage, that could potentially remove Stasis as well.
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I don't think any sort of ambush is going to be very good. Yes they'll hear them coming, but if they launch "ambush attacks" it's likely going to be into the super tanky stamina tablet'd Wrex or Bass as they would be taking point. If they wait for them to pass by for whatever reason they're probably spotted because as said they're not really a stealthy lot.
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Salvation is a full party heal, the problem is there's a lot more burst damage coming out of my team and your guys are a lot less durable. So you get a lot less mileage out of it.

That and I have two full healers and you only have one who is also argued to be pinpointing weaknesses and buffing on top of that.

Flynn is overloaded here is kinda the problem. He can only do so much.
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Also for what it's worth stasis pretty much never works like a status ailment in a game. Like even when it's not clear stasis, esuna doesn't work on stop for instance.

Although maybe flynn thinks it is esunable and uses a full heal before his team is heavily damaged and wastes time, you never know.
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I can buy Wrex taking point, and a buffed Wrex surviving Selvaria's giant laser. He doesn't just shrug it off though, and there's damage following up on that right away. It isn't the initial damage that's important so much as the initiative is. I wouldn't go as far as saying they'd be in disarray or panicking, but the momentum is against them and it takes precious seconds to get a bearing on the situation. At which point Jaesa is in their faces, Selvaria is sniping he support and they're also getting hit by doubly effective magic.
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Wrex shrugs it off when he gets a full hp heal from Yu, who really doesn't have to do much but be a full time healbot to win this battle, unlike Flynn who needs to do several things.

Meanwhile when Bass retaliates with two 600% damage laser shots, the target is dead and full heals don't matter.
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I don't know about "less durable". Taking buffs into account I peg it at:

Dizzy > Bass > Wrex > Selvaria > Flynn > Yu > Jaesa = Rikku

Like, I can't stress this enough. Dizzy is really, ridiculously durable. Between dealing and taking damage she's charging 'meter' pretty quickly, and then she's busting out Necro's fire lasers and the infamous Gamma Ray.
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What is Dizzy "ridiculously durable" based on, exactly. In game she actually has one of the lowest life totals and I don't believe she actually tanks anything of note in the plot. Lot of damage, yes. Extremely mobile, yes.

Also keep in mind that SMT buffs are not super long duration. When Dizzy gets out of Stasis her buffs are probably mostly expired.

And I think you're underestimating the effect of double HP. Saying Flynn is more durable than Yu with double HP is audacious to say the least. I would probably put it at Bass > Wrex > Dizzy > Yu > Selvaria > Rikku > Flynn > Jaesa.
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Double duration and potency Bass is just too strong. When Yu, Wrex and Bass can effectively just leave Neptune and Rikku behind to die.

OP Bass
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Wow im glad i don't have to vote in this one.

This match is eddv underhype central

My big issue is probably whether doublebuffed bass and buffed wrex can beat buffed Dizzy.

My inclination is "yes because Dizzy sucks" but i know that i am basically rock bottom on giving a shit about Dizzy and that a lot of others wont see it that way.
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Yeah Dizzy really doesn't suck, her damage is very real

Not sure who wins this - does Dizzy nuke Wrex down quick enough to kill him? The energy she outputs can overload his shield a hundred times over. If he gets stasis off on her, his team wins. If not, Dizxy can rampage.
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http://guilty-gear.wikia.com/wiki/Dizzy

Powers & Abilities section. I quoted a number of feats in my opening argument. Bass and Wrex have nothing approaching that. And saying she has a low health total in-game is like the old "Akuma dies to a stiff wind" argument, where balance decrees his health his low to compensate for his offensive tools. That doesn't exist here.

In terms of buffs, Doping doesn't expire. Luster Candy simply gets reapplied when it runs out. It's teamwide and instant cast. When they're effectively doing the same thing, saying you have two healbots isn't much to brag about. Flynn is accomplishing that whilst also contributing offensively. It's going to become clear pretty quickly that the two real threats are being healed, and even with double health, Yu and Rikku aren't exactly durable. They can't withstand Selvaria's attacks or strong fire magic, and then it's a 2v4 the other way. Assuming both sides are constantly being topped up to full health beforehand. Bass is arguably only one-shotting Jaesa or Flynn with his strongest shots, and neither of those are the 'obvious' threats to attack, if the same logic is going to be applied for Flynn's team attacking Bass/Wrex.
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I think "buffed Dizzy" is a bit inaccurate to the match.

First of all, let's go back to the premise that they start fully buffed (acknowledging that the SMT buffs used by Flynnonly last 3 turns in game)-- a sensible formation would have Rikku further to the back since 1. She's a supportive unit here. 2. Her new BFF won't shut up. But consider that Neptune isn't going to be constantly wailing like a Siren and probably just talking-- I mean she's gonna be slightly loud and energetic but still she's not like a "HEY WE'RE HERE" beacon. Like say they start 30 ft behind their party members, that's a 30 ft further out that Neptune's yapping has to catch the ears of the enemy team. Considering walls, what little noises Selvaria's team itself is making. It's not a gimme that all the buffs are gonna be dropped.

Secondly, as said, Stasis on Dizzy is gonna chew a lot of the time on her buffs in particular, and Flynn probably isn't very long for this world to reapply them.

Realistically it's going to be unbuffed Dizzy vs buffed Bass and Wrex sooner rather than later.
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Isn't buffs lasting three turns a Persona-only thing? I thought they lasted until dispelled in SMT.
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Obviously, Dizzy can obliterate the other team in seconds if she wanted. But would she use her power like that?
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The problem with taking out Yu and Rikku is you need to ignore the imminent threats to do so.

Considering Bass has a double potency haste and super strong opening attacks (which, arguably, depending on how you interpret personas in real time given P4Arena's intepretation of them, Power Charge can be constantly reapplied by Bass's persona while he's still fighting at full potential) he's not someone who can simply be ignored to assassinate the healers, particularly since you don't have any particularly great assassin on your team up to the task.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Isn't buffs lasting three turns a Persona-only thing? I thought they lasted until dispelled in SMT.

I suppose this is actually true

Why is this series inconsistent

I don't think it matters as the buffs out of Rikku's team are better and the duration is "long enough or also infinite" but duly noted
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Keep in mind also that "agility" in the SMT series isn't really the same as haste. It affects initiative, turn order, accuracy. It doesn't give you extra turns like haste does.

Bass is still gonna be way the hell faster than anyone here. The agility based kaja from Luster Candy might make it so they can react a bit better to him (though even at max Kaja rank of 3 I think it's 160% as opposed to the doubling of speed (tripling on Bass) on haste) but he's still going to be outspeeding pretty hard.
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