Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku/Yu/Bass. EXE/Wrex vs. Dizzy/Flynn/ Selvaria/Jaesa

(+) Yeah! (+)

At the Speed Bass would be travelling at here, he could literally run away and wait it out and with double buff duration I'd argue he's still ready to go for another 30 seconds after his second Phasewalk.

He's not getting a third without a top up though and if the battle actually goes that long Rikku's easily dead by then.
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Like the big problem here is that, I see the fight going something like this:

Wrex stasis on flying murder girl, then suppressive fire-- potentially lethal suppressive fire-- kinda underselling it as this is potentially lethal to Flynn and Jaesa.
Bass kills someone with his opening burst, probably Jaesa or Flynn depending on enemy formations. Rikku continues to apply hastes/etc to the party as everyone gets fully buffed, Yu heals while Rikku is buffing.

Eventually there's a paradigm shift where Rikku shifts to the healer with her full heal to all, and Yu swaps to a debuffer. This should be enough to bring down Dizzy.

The enemy team doesn't really have a lot of counterplay for this-- Flynn needs to fill too many roles at once-- if he's trying to explode Bass (and as KJH said his Life Aura should suppress his weakness till it's brought down-- so this is overall a mistake to attempt, his app may be the doom of him here) then he can't heal, and his team is kinda grossly outgunned while Dizzy is frozen.
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A quick check shows her being pretty ideal for determining character, lies, deception, etc but don't know much more than that. Gonna need more than an out of date wiki for more info there I guess.

Jedi/Sith generally ain't best for combat per se but for everything around combat. support abilities, detection, that sort of thing. The weapon is the big deal for melee is important too but comes well after the other stuff. Even things like their blaster blocking relates to that.


Still calling it super scummy to vote without getting into her though! Those people know better than that.
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Bass isn't the type of guy to run away. He might do the "you did well, find me again when you're ready to fight me at my full power" thing, but he wouldn't cower in order to have his abilities recharge.
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Thing is she's from a game where Jedi and Sith aren't exactly on this mighty pedestal. There are plenty of Jedi and Sith in training-- and yeah, lots of em aren't great for much other than having a Lightsaber. Burden of proof is kinda on the lore there to prove she's a big deal, because in that setting "random Sith" ain't really worth a ton.

Also I don't really see Bass having a need to run. With the huge HP boost, immunities, and two allies capable of full heals, and the absurd speed he's moving at, he's probably not going down before the CD comes back up, even if he's fighting particularly recklessly-- especially since the main offense on the other team is probably out for half of his CD due to stasis.
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Depends how highly you rate Super Bass tbh. It seems incredibly strong to me. Double buffed most people is gonna be a nightmare to contend with, a double buffed very durable, very fast, very lethal opponent is entirely another thing.

Considering I've never even heard of Jaesa and Luis didn't even try to sell her as a major threat. I'm not seeing it as very scummy at all.
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Lopen posted...

Bass kills someone with his opening burst, probably Jaesa or Flynn depending on enemy formations.

Well, he'll try to but why would they die? Jaesa has a strong connection to the Force, does that mean that she'd be capable of countering the attack/avoiding the lethal strike? Flynn is trickier but he's fast enough to dodge close range lightning magic from Odin and the equipment he's wearing is end game armor where high level guns and demons exist. You respect plasma rifles plenty, late game armor is capable of tanking plenty of that too. Though realistically the biggest question is in the melee strike connecting.
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woodman posted...

Bass isn't the type of guy to run away. He might do the "you did well, find me again when you're ready to fight me at my full power" thing, but he wouldn't cower in order to have his abilities recharge.

I wasn't trying to sell it as a battle plan, was merely trying to explain that Bass isn't just going to be a sitting duck when comes out of Phasewalk while double hasted.
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He's invisible, moving super fast, and is a damn robot which aren't as easily sensed by the force.

It's an impressive amount of credibility to give a template Jedi without a reason to, or frankly even Flynn, to dodge it.
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I'm pretty sure Phasewalk is even more stealthy than being invisible, it's like being outside the dimension looking in. Insanely good for ganks.
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According to the wiki, the in game codex says...

Once in a millennium, a man or woman is born who expands the frontiers of what Force users can achieve. Proud, young Jedi Padawan Jaesa Willsaam discovered the unprecedented ability to discern any being’s true nature and uncover a person’s most secret intentions.

As your intro to her.
Being a "once in a millennium" character sounds like she's a bigger deal than not. And she does kill a Jedi Master at the beginning of her story so it doesn't seem like she's particularly weak.
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Kinglicious posted...

Being a "once in a millennium" character sounds like she's a bigger deal than not.

Depends what she's "once in a millennium" at. In her case, is doesn't sound very applicable to a battle like this.
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Actually correction on the force being bad at sensing robots apparently Luke uses it on 3PO in a random EU book which is enough to give me doubt-- I wonder what the actual official lore is on this. I still suspect it's crummy vs droids for the same reason it's crummy vs clone troopers, but yeah.

Anyway like, even, assuming, Jaesa can sense it to dodge it-- is she even fast enough to? Bass is moving very quickly here. Like, you can know death is coming and have precisely no action to use against it.
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aren't random eu books noncanon now?
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They are yeah.

I didn't say they can cause of that excerpt, just that I can't definitively in good faith say they can't. I don't think it really comes up ever-- I'd still lean no though cause yeah why would a clone trooper be undetectable while a droid is. Wouldn't be terribly consistent.
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disney saved mercs by eliminating the eu
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MenuWars posted...

Considering I've never even heard of Jaesa and Luis didn't even try to sell her as a major threat. I'm not seeing it as very scummy at all.

Who cares whether Luis sells her or not? Does he know what he has? Maybe, maybe not, but leader arguments should never be the be all end all for hype or dehype.

If they were strangers I'd understand more but FFD and SEP ain't that. They know better. If you don't know, why are you voting?



And lopen - I'm honestly not assuming she can actually dodge that hit. Flynn maybe, there's some minor precog seen here and there iirc. The token Jedi/Sith, not so much. But I literally don't know anything about her beyond the bits posted and based on the topic, nobody does either. It's not out of reason for Force users to have precog, though the robot bit I did forget about. That's probably safe.

...and I should've read her bio more before posting that since her kill on a Jedi Master was with the dude in chains apparently. Whoops.
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I know enough to know she's shit get off my nuts wang.
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That being said I kinda think Bass ganking Flynn would be the more sensible action anyway-- if you've got an assassination skill it's just more sensible to use it on a backline fighter like Flynn than a melee who's probably getting dealt with by Wrex anyway and she marches right into his Shotgun (which, amusingly, is one of the best weapons to use against a Jedi as it's literally impossible to deflect all the buckshot-- pretty sure this comes up in some random non-canon EU book even).
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FFDragon posted...

I know enough to know she's shit get off my nuts wang.

So what do you know about her that says she's​ shit.
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Okay GameFAQs needs to fix spaces turning into weird symbols on mobile. That's dumb code.
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I think the general assumption is if there was something to know about Jaesa, we would know, and it's burden on Luis to let us know if there's anything. I'm treating her as stock Sith Apprentice given the information available on her and the game setting she's from, as well as Luis's lack of hype for her (he would've dug something up if there was anything worth digging up-- she's been in a few matches now), and well, that bar ain't super high.
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Protect, Tetrakarn

These two buffs at double duration and power also mean anyone skilled enough to get a counter hit on him from Phasewalk is immediately going to wish they hadn't too.

It's not even worth arguing Wang.
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...hm. would tetrakarn work in phasewalk? if it does that'd be a neat trick and perfect for a counter-attack. it'd also work well with Bass' personality since he'd be able to follow up the next guy.

Lopen posted...

and it's burden on Luis to let us know if there's anything

i'm going to disagree with this for one specific reason: it's the burden of whoever brought her into the game. as in, a burden on the admins to know the characters they're introducing. if that answer is still Luis then well, alright, i got nothing to that. i do agree that the leader has some responsibility to know the characters they own but the ultimate burden doesn't lie on them - plenty of mercs are known best not by their leaders but by voters. just take the dark samus match and kamek from yesterday as an example.


and if she's been in a few matches so far then why is there so little known? did nobody ask? i mean Kan's a pretty big star wars guy, posts a lot, and admins this version of the game, it'd be weird if someone asked and he didn't respond in any of her prior matches.
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Wanglicious posted...

if that answer is still Luis then well, alright, i got nothing to that

Bingo.
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Wanglicious posted...

a burden on the admins to know the characters they're introducing.

week 41 merc

so lol that notion
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FFD is right

With quality control this merc probably straight up doesn't exist cause there's not enough material

That being said Luis priced her at 4 upkeep which... seems about right (maybe a bit high but her abilities are good) for stock sith, and has argued her to that effect as well, so... yeah, I don't see an issue with just running with that.
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....WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT.
AND THEN WHY WOULD YOU BUY HER IF YOU DON'T KNOW.

like if she was a kan merc and he convinced luis to release her then he should know something. anything. and something should've been said.

why is this so stupid.
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Wanglicious posted...

why is this so stupid.

"mercs"
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Well I personally think "stock sith" is kinda interesting to argue so I won't fault it too much

Just... not in this match in particular, where she's kinda outclassed on both sides several times.
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Your answer for why she was bought, and why she's in this match at all, is because she used an ability to make Samus get stabbed by a lightsaber and slowly bleed to death. Same as every other match she's been in but I felt it easier to just not roster Samus and argue for my boy Wrex instead. (who as it turns out I feel is actually more useful than Samus for this particular scenario, funny how that happens, but you know)
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Yeah it's hard to argue against "lightsaber to the stomach."

But you could give that ability to Bub and it would have the same impact.
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We should just give it to Bub and scrap her.

Maybe list Bub as a Sith Apprentice.
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sign this petition
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Wait, why is it my job to argue Luis's case for him? If he didn't argue anything for Jaesa, then I have every right to assume there's nothing worth arguing since it's his merc. It's not scummy not to wait to vote just because a leader chose not to argue for one of their mercs. Get the hell out with that noise.
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this will probably be the best thing in the short term that isn't Kan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu65lF2gsvE

5:37 you've got this when she's still a padawan:
"Master Yonlach: Jaesa is special, her power unprecedented. If untouched by the likes of you, she has the potential to lead the Jedi to greatness.


a couple powers shown there is that she's got some pretty ridiculous tracking capaibilities. light-side leaning sith, even sith lords, across the galaxy got tracked by her and she murdered them alone. we know there's multiple jedi that she killed and then eventually as the story progresses she can detect the guy who killed a sith. so by using the force she can track down whoever murdered all of them.

eventually she finds him, a Sith Lord named Cendence, and she then proceeds to solo him in combat. this guy was hand picked by the Dark Council to kill any Sith that would potentially betray them, so he shouldn't be a weak, throwaway guy.

"He was ferocious. Honestly, there was a poitn where I thought I was done for. But my power is beginning to help me innately. I intuited a feint, and, ignoring it, was able to counter his death blow and seize an opening--a fatal thrust through the neck."

the implication here is that her ability to sense people's emotions has gone beyond just emotions and just detecting people for tracking, it's also usable in combat. running the same logic in the power, it's basically modified precog in knowing whether or not they intend to act and perhaps where they're going to be since it was a counter strike to the neck.



so all in all, that's quite a bit better than token sith apprentice considering she beat a chosen by dark council sith lord.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Wait, why is it my job to argue Luis's case for him? If he didn't argue anything for Jaesa, then I have every right to assume there's nothing worth arguing since it's his merc. It's not scummy not to wait to vote just because a leader chose not to argue for one of their mercs. Get the hell out with that noise.

it's not your responsibility to argue it.
but it is yours to not vote without at the very least asking about it. it's your responsibility to take the characters in the match and vote for who you believe should win - and that means all the characters. did you ask to know more about her before? if not then yes, it's absolutely scummy to vote because whether he argues or not should not matter to the vote. why the hell should a leader's argument ever matter in a match? if they can make good points that's not on their ability as the leader, that's on their ability as a person good at argument.

and if you've never asked, if you've never wondered, if you've never bothered to try to get any info at all on her, then you can get out. that's cancerous thinking and you know better. don't be so mad that you got called out for your scummy behavior.
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Jaesa's probably on the better end of 4/weeks. She's kind of a jack-of-all-trades of offence, tanking and support skills, like all SWTOR companions after the system rework.

https://torcommunity.com/database/companion/aCkSzGB/jaesa+willsaam/

She's better than Rikku and Yu here and can take them out with relatively minimum fuss. She isn't the answer to Bass though, who's drawing all the attention. That would be Flynn and Dizzy, hence where I'm focusing my energy on arguing. Honestly, I'd be feeling greater consternation over people seemingly being unwilling to believe the scope of just what Dizzy can accomplish than not thinking a combo piece merc like Jaesa can greatly influence a match.
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Wanglicious posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Wait, why is it my job to argue Luis's case for him? If he didn't argue anything for Jaesa, then I have every right to assume there's nothing worth arguing since it's his merc. It's not scummy not to wait to vote just because a leader chose not to argue for one of their mercs. Get the hell out with that noise.

it's not your responsibility to argue it.
but it is yours to not vote without at the very least asking about it. it's your responsibility to take the characters in the match and vote for who you believe should win - and that means all the characters. did you ask to know more about her before? if not then yes, it's absolutely scummy to vote because whether he argues or not should not matter to the vote. why the hell should a leader's argument ever matter in a match? if they can make good points that's not on their ability as the leader, that's on their ability as a person good at argument.

and if you've never asked, if you've never wondered, if you've never bothered to try to get any info at all on her, then you can get out. that's cancerous thinking and you know better. don't be so mad that you got called out for your scummy behavior.

Bullshit. Fuck off with this, wang.

It's my job to have a basic understanding of the character. It's NOT my job to sit here, ask "So what is the best thing they can do against this team," and wait for an answer. It's ABSOLUTELY the leader's job to convince people of a character's usefulness beyond what they may know about them. It's absolutely NOT the voter's job to have to ask a million questions.

Saying a leader's argument shouldn't matter in a match is 100% bullshit. That's the whole fucking point of Mercs! This isn't "Here's two random sets of characters, who wins?" Leaders literally craft teams, use abilities, and bid on terrains specifically so they can argue "This is why my team wins in this scenario." Saying a leader's argument should have no bearing on a vote is completely insane.

You can throw around the word "cancerous" all you want. But do you know what's actually cancerous? You being a complete and total jackass about how somebody chooses to vote when they haven't done anything actually wrong.

THAT is how you get low votals.

Get off your high fucking horse.
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well, if we get meta on pricing stuff (which is an argument i hate) then she would logically be at least a 5/day fighter because nobody knows who the fuck she is or what she can do. anytime that happens the combat capabilities aren't something you ignore for an ability too, you just sell 'em cheaper than what they should really be capable of.

but none of this is actually getting into fights. it's just meta analysis over prices, which will always be a bad argument for anything.

Luis_Sera89 posted...

She's kind of a jack-of-all-trades of offence, tanking and support skills, like all SWTOR companions after the system rework.

...lore, dude.
star wars is all about lore first when you get it. all the complaints lopen's got about her basically boil down to "who the fuck is this throwaway apprentice," which makes sense considering without getting into her lore that's all she sounds like she is. as opposed to a character who the jedi council is furious over losing, who beats hand picked sith lords chosen by the sith council, and who can seemingly track anything.

like... yeah, that list of moves is helpful for specific situations. Protective Barrier being 20s of a massive damage cut is nice. force push, stun, a mini gravity effect towards her all are fairly 'okay' moves and fall in the generic box. dark tempest probably needs a visual aid to know what that means. but you've got to talk about lore if it's star wars.
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I mean, it essentially comes down to "how can Bass, even a buffed Bass, beat Dizzy?"

Even 600% shots aren't on the same level as nuclear blasts, which Dizzy has demonstrated to be able to tank. Once healers are out of the picture, he has to be able to wear her down, and all the while Dizzy isn't exactly standing there letting him do it. She's going to figure out over the course of the fight that fire magic has a greater effect than most, assuming Flynn doesn't just outright tell her. He has a lot of "HP", but Dizzy has a whole lot more. And the lower it gets, the more willing she/her systems will be to unleashing her stronger attacks in fight-or-flight.
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The point of Mercs is "Teams craft teams, use abilities, bid on terrains, and then voters come in with a preconceived idea of who wins which they will go through mental gymnastics to hold true to"
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DeathChicken posted...

The point of Mercs is "Teams craft teams, use abilities, bid on terrains, and then voters come in with a preconceived idea of who wins which they will go through mental gymnastics to hold true to"

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DeathChicken posted...

The point of Mercs is "Teams craft teams, use abilities, bid on terrains, and then voters come in with a preconceived idea of who wins which they will go through mental gymnastics to hold true to"

That's the TRUE point of Mercs. Shh.

Seriously, though. Wang had literally no right to attack us on this.
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going to topic as a last resort best strategy
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StealThisSheen posted...

Bullshit. Fuck off with this, wang.

never, because you're in the wrong.

StealThisSheen posted...

It's my job to have a basic understanding of the character.

no, your job is to answer a single question:
who would win in a fight?

you have characters on one side fighting characters on the other side. your job is to answer that.
that does not mean to be an encyclopedia of knowledge on them. it does, however, require you to know who is in the fight and analyze it. trying to talk about high votals vs. low votals seems like an odd thing here: a low voted match where everyone argues and analyzes is much better than a high voted match where nobody does. the ideal is you get both high votals and tons of arguments, analysis, etc from all those involved. but setting the bar so low is beneath you.

StealThisSheen posted...

Saying a leader's argument shouldn't matter in a match is 100% bullshit. That's the whole fucking point of Mercs! This isn't "Here's two random sets of characters, who wins?" Leaders literally craft teams, use abilities, and bid on terrains specifically so they can argue "This is why my team wins in this scenario." Saying a leader's argument should have no bearing on a vote is completely insane.

no, a leader's job is to present their half of the "board" to the public. arguing for that team is an extended responsibility but it is not a requirement. they manage, they run abilities, but they are NOT required to argue. anybody else can. they present their half of the board to the public and the public decides who should win.

arguments come out of this because obviously they want to prove their side is better. and that's entirely the reason why a leader's argument should have no bearing at all: they aren't trying to prove who would win, they're just trying to win votes. it doesn't matter who would actually win to them, all that matters is that they get the W. they are the most biased people in the match so yes, a leader's argument is the FIRST thing you should discount and be skeptical of. what's insane here is you're arguing sophistry over truth here because the former is what leaders engage in first and foremost and your job, as a voter, is to find the latter.

StealThisSheen posted...

You can throw around the word "cancerous" all you want. But do you know what's actually cancerous? You being a complete and total jackass about how somebody chooses to vote when they haven't done anything actually wrong.

then i'll ask you again.
for the third time.

what do you know about her?
or rather, did before i called you out?

the question got posed on what she could do before you voted and the match had just started not long before so i mean, surely you knew something about her, right? she's been in a couple matches, you've seen her, so what did you know?

i singled you and FFD out specifically because you two have played this game for a long ass time too so you both know better than just casually throwing down a vote. you two ain't random people who came in, you're the types who ask, who want to know a character beyond a "basic understanding," and make a proper, informed vote.

but you didn't here.
so i called bullshit on you.
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...and something i should probably be clear on:
obviously some leaders are more trustworthy than others for their argument. FFD and DC come to mind as two.

but those types of leaders are also the same ones who have in the past defended the idea of why a leader's argument is among the first things you discount in a match.
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Can you get me the info on Dizzy tanking a nuke? That's not a feat to be sniffed at.
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Albeit nothing I've seen on Dizzy so far has convinced me in anyway that she's quick enough to keep up with buffed Bass. Even regular Bass seems like he's on a good par or better than her, speed doesn't seem to be her thing, and she absolutely needs it here.
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I was going to just start to "Sure, Wang, sure" and ignore him, but then he'd just continue to sit there, sniff his own farts, and go on about how I'm "in the wrong."

Unvote

Congratulations, Wang, you win. I'll just stop voting so I don't have to make sure I pass the Wang Test every time
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