Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 7 - Send a raven North... (SPOILER)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Victarion > Euron still tbh

Victarion exudes a presence without having to be over the top, not that I don't appreciate it from Euron for show purposes.
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Nanis23 posted...

Taking Casterly Rock could have been a 15 minutes scene
Taking Highgarden could have been a 20 minutes scene

You only do that if you are forced to scrape a barrel for 5 seasons while your writer keeps delaying finishing the story

If you are free to write your story then you don't have to stretch out and savor every little battle for no reason
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

Realo would have loved Euron. He's not a beta.

Wow did people learn nothing from that era? Realo is alpha-signaling hyper-beta who who learned from other alpha-signaling hyper-betas (PUA blogs) and Euron is definitely someone who would have a PUA subscription raven service.
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Euron is ridiculous but I had a good chuckle when he was taunting Jaime, especially the last bit.
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foolm0r0n posted...

RyoCaliente posted...

the writers just do whatever's convenient for them as opposed to how the world functions

spoilers this has literally always been the case

S1 got a free pass because it was defining "how the world works" so all the arbitrariness was just "world building"

...Sure, but recent seasons and especially this season has been way worse about it.
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None of it bothers me except sailing around the continent taking like half a day.
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foolm0r0n posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Realo would have loved Euron. He's not a beta.

Wow did people learn nothing from that era? Realo is alpha-signaling hyper-beta who who learned from other alpha-signaling hyper-betas (PUA blogs) and Euron is definitely someone who would have a PUA subscription raven service.

I wasn't going to tag this topic but now I must
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MrGreenonion posted...

None of it bothers me except sailing around the continent taking like half a day.

Agreed. This season has made Westeros seem really small.
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I wish the show early on invested in some sort of "here's some cartoon arrows on a map where people are moving around" thing, but I think it's equally good that they just screw it and do travel however they want
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

None of it bothers me except sailing around the continent taking like half a day.

It takes two weeks. 'Wait a fortnight.' Which is still too short.
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The fortnight thing could easily have been exaggeration

If you've ever done contracting work you know you can stall a few weeks beyond your estimation no problem, plus this pencil pusher banker was probably getting laid and high every night so how would he know 2 weeks from 4?
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

Victarion > Euron still tbh

Victarion exudes a presence without having to be over the top, not that I don't appreciate it from Euron for show purposes.

no way. and victarion, not over the top? did you not read the quote from this very topic?
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fortnight is just a cool word guys
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Like is Euron on meth all the time now? Or maybe someone realized he was a pirate and replaced all his stage directions with "Jack Sparrow, but evil"?
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If Euron is on meth, I want meth
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Suprak the Stud posted...

He's extremely vocal about how much he hates wildlings in season six

I know I'm a day late to this, but why would someone from the Reach even care about Wildlings that much? It would make sense if he was from the North.
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Don't you know it's the cool thing to hate Wildlings? You're totally a square if you don't
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Obviously he was just super concerned about Sam's well being.
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RIP my favorite character. At least she went out like a boss, sticking it to Cersei even in the face of certain doom.
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What characters are even gonna be left in S8?

Jon, Dany, Theon, Hot Pie, Night King. It's gonna go full sitcom.
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Thoughts as I watched:

plz stop playing up the sansa is smart narrative kthx.
Dragon Swipe was really cool.
I kinda wish we'd actually get the conflict between the Red Priest and Jon/Davos, but the conversation with the Spider was still good.
When did Davos forget how to do introductions? I remember him being better, back when he was with the Mannis.
I kind of wish they had done more with the "sins of the father do not carry to the child" theme they've got going on here."
They really wanted to give speaking lines to Tyrion. His commentary is doing nothing for me here.
...Did they ever give a resolution to that whole "the-dragons-ate-a-kid" subplot?
Dany is coming off really bad here.
Did one of them just call her a fucking wanker?
the torture porn is kind of uncomfortable. I'm not sure who we're expected to feel bad for. Maybe I'll give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that was the point?
The scene with the banker is really good. It's still Overly Competent Cersei, but it's good.
NO. NO YOU CAN'T HELP THEM FROM DRAGONSTONE. MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE TO DRAGONSTONE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE SENT SANSA.
When did Sansa learn about the proper way to make armor?
Why is Sansa trusting Littlefinger? I want to SCREAM, SCREAM AT HER THAT SHE IS IN DANGER, RUN, RUN, SANSA, FOR HIS EYES UNMAKE ALL THINGS AND -
The lack of Sam facing any proper consequences for his actions at the Citadel is bad.
Bran scene was neat. I don't know where they're going with this, though.
"Oh I just happened to put a backdoor in Castlely Rock"... *sigh*
Wow more plans went wrong for Dany. Pretty good scene, I guess?
I forgot Jaime still had the sword.
And another one bites the dust. Operation: Kill Off the Sideplots continues apace.

6/10, I suppose. A little better than average.

Catching up: I've come to terms with teleporting at this point. It's like how talking is a free action in comics -- you just accept it and move on.
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foolm0r0n posted...

What characters are even gonna be left in S8?

Jon, Dany, Theon, Hot Pie, Night King. It's gonna go full sitcom.

Major characters left right now:

Team Insanity: Cersei, Qyburn, Mountain, Euron, Jaime, Iron Bank Guy (may not be important), Sam's Father, Bronn
Team Dragon: Dany, Afro Girl, Grey Worm, Varys, Tyrion, Jorah, Ellaria, Ellaria's Daughter What's-Her-Face, Theon, Yara, Dany's three dragons
Team Snow: Jon, Davos, Sansa, Bran, Bran's Girlfriend, Night's Watch Leader Guy, Redhead Wildling Guy, Littlefinger, Brienne, Podrick, Sam, Arya, Lyanna, Robin
Team Miscellaneous: Melisandre, Hound, One-Eyed Guy Who Came Back to Life, Night King

Unless Bronn returns to save Ellaria's daughter and her bad ***** (which he needs), she's already dead. I just hope that Littlefinger isn't killed by Sansa, it'll really disappoint me when that inevitably happens.
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meh I was gonna wait a few days but you guys can have them now.

when she kept talking about how made up shit can't be real
HEY
AREN'T YOU THE ONE WHO HATCHED FUCKING DRAGONS
THAT ARE NOT REAL
why didn't anyone literally ANYONE bring this up

well the main thing I liked about this episode was just the overall structure and tone
it had a lot of dialogue driven scenes between characters, with interesting pair ups
that felt really, really similar to what made the earlier seasons great
totally unexpected for me since I haven't really felt the show has lived up to this quality in years

I thought davos randomly being ignored by missandei on the beach was a bit weird
I have no idea what the point of that moment was?
jon and dany and tyrion and dany and tyrion and jon all interacting in separate 1 v 1 conversations I felt like was done pretty well

the throne room scene was a bit more awkward but I thought in a good way
dany was essentially just pulling the same bullshit she pulls in every throne room scene
but for the first time maybe in the history of the show we're not supposed to just stand up and applaud for her
which felt nice

I didn't think her and jon had good chemistry which was great
some people are saying they did have chemistry
others are complaining that they didn't
also just for the tone of what was needed in these scenes it wouldn't make any sense for them to have chemistry but then still act like assholes toward each other
yeah I mean if that happens later that will be its own separate problem
I'm not gonna judge acting in these scenes based on what may happen in the future

I will say that I actually didn't think jon and tyrion were great together
tyrion's style of being humorous doesn't work all that well off of kit harrington
since he's one of the more serious and dour characters
like the few times he tried to make jokes, kit is just totally deadpan
and this fits Jon's character, so I'm not saying it was like badly done
I just mean that the idea of pairing two characters who don't work together unfortunately doesn't have a ton of potential

melisandre and varys was a great scene
especially with his relationship with magic, his fear and hatred of it
the implicit threat
telling her not to come back
but then he just gets totally shut down
that was just a great line and delivery on her part
it really shows that when it comes to magical stuff, varys is basically outside of his familiar territory
and didn't have a response
he was essentially trying the same kind of tactic he'd use against someone like littlefinger
which obviously does not work when the other person follows a different set of rules

euron returning to king's landing was just fucking hilarious
I think I was laughing during the entire scene of him marching through the streets
I have no idea if it was intended to be funny
or if we were supposed to feel bad for the characters who got captured
but it was just way too funny
how much he was enjoying himself

I think cersei may have overplayed her hand here though by delaying the marriage again
her original move was fantastic as we saw here and really panned out
with euron bringing ellaria back to her and destroying dany's fleet
at no cost to cersei AT ALL
at this point though she is really asking for a lot
I'm surprised euron wasn't more angry about the deal being delayed even further 'until the war ends'
I do think it was in her character to do this though, for the record
what I just mean is that I felt like it wasn't the best possible move to make
which is fine since every character shouldn't always make the best possible move
that would be boring

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the dungeon scene with ellaria was pretty much amazing
somehow one of the best torture scenes in anything I've ever seen
without even shedding a single drop of blood
cersei is fucking nuts
her interaction with the banker was good too
with him comparing her to tywin and stuff
honestly she doesn't match book cersei at all
at this point I just think of her as a totally different character
and it's cool to see this character grow into someone who lives up to tywin's legacy

the scene with sansa ruling over winterfell was understated but actually really great
I think the show needs more scenes like that
to me it's not entertaining if the characters are always in situations that are huge and dramatic
it's important to see how they act during ordinary times
so that they feel real and like they live actual lives
by the way as a point of comparison
she seemed way more on top of things than Robb or Bran was, when they were in charge
and interestingly
every single problem that she addressed or corrected
you have to keep in mind
these are problems Jon should have had under control
and DID NOT
this means that she is doing a better job than Jon as well
that's why I say understated because I don't think this is very explicit, but it is implicit if you think about the scene for a few minutes

the monologue where she is alone with littlefinger
was so awesome
Littlefinger is just the best
I don't think he even said anything that amazing
but his delivery and how passionate he suddenly got
was just really enjoyable to watch for me
it almost seemed like he was trying this as a different tactic of trying to seduce sansa
like, this is the real me, this is what I care about, this is what I'm good at
maybe I was reading too much into the scene but it almost felt like her reaction was kind of signaling that too
like the way she was looking at him while he was talking
as if she was seeing his attractive qualities for the first time ever
and like almost any romance scene in any television show, it's interrupted by someone showing up to break the tension between the characters
very interesting choice for a scene and how to direct it
not sure what it might imply for the future
I can't imagine littlefinger and sansa ever actually get together

creepy robot bran was interesting and unexpected
for some reason I did not anticipate his character going in this direction
it felt like he still had emotions even when fleeing during the attack and stuff
so the fact that he's totally emotionless now was a bit of a shock
I'm tentatively into it though, I want to see where this is going

the show often doesn't do large scale tactical stuff or even attempt to do it.
it's usually singular, dramatic battles.
this was VERY out of the ordinary.
now the logistics weren't done perfectly, and I think there's some stuff that was unfortunately not shown clearly enough
but I thought the idea of everything that happened was actually solid
and the execution was enjoyable for me to watch at least
maybe it's because Jaime is among my favorite characters though
so it made it very easy to root for him
so first of all the part where Tyrion is giving a voice over during the casterly rock battle
this is actually unlike what normally happens on the show
it never uses voice overs
like almost never
but this was a great opportunity to have a battle narrated
rather than just shown on screen
some of the details were pretty ????
but I loved the idea of tyrion narrating the battle all badass about his epic plan
then the reveal at the end that jaime had given them the slip

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now there's several really cool elements that go into why I thought jaime's tactic here was awesome
first is the fact that the unsullied are now trapped in an effectively worthless keep
completely cut off from where dany is
that alone is a prime move
secondly it was cool that jaime mentioned this tactic as being a callback to what Robb did to him and tywin in the whispering wood
the show especially broadcasts the idea of Robb as a military genius
so other characters learning from his tactics actually makes a lot of sense
also the subtle way that this result was built up to in previous episodes worked really well for me

so first we get the scene of dany and her council making war plans
and she chooses to bring the highgarden and dornish forces to lay siege to king's landing
next episode
we get the scene where Cersei gathers all of the Reach forces and tries to get them to switch sides
with Jaime explicitly going after Tarly as the best military commander
next episode, it's pretty much explicitly stated that Jaime and Cersei know dany is going for Casterly Rock
I don't think they showed this on screen very well
aside from Jaime saying he took his forces and went where the enemy wasn't
but I think the idea is that the highgarden forces were mostly out i nthe field
then Cersei turned a lot of them to her side
(Tarly is riding with Jaime during the battle scene)
(so it's likely him and a large majority of the bannermen defected)
and then everyone was expecting a battle at casterly rock and a siege at king's landing
so nobody was anticipating the lannister army to just show up at highgarden
I think this is actually a really suitable explanation for it being captured so easily
and I don't mind the battle being offscreen, we had plenty of offscreen battles

after the capture, the scene between Jaime and Olenna was just great
Jaime in particular if you think about it has a lot of scenes where he meets one on one with enemy commanders
either before a battle
after winning
after losing
or some combination of two of those
and they're almost always fantastic scenes too
this basically just continues that trend
obviously Olenna is not much of a commander
if she still had Tarly on her side this would have been a different battle

Jaime's nature has changed so much over the course of the show
you could tell he was very sympathetic toward her
even when she was trying to antagonize him
and at the very end after she reveals that she murdered his son he still shows restraint
similar to the sansa stuff earlier I think this is a really strong showing for his character that is very understated
since more people will be thinking about how SAVAGE and AWESOME olenna was in that scene
which she also was
this is also why the scene was so great
since both actors did a fantastic job and the scene itself was well written

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"We don't believe you despite overwhelming evidence because its not plot relevant for us to believe you yet" is my most hated TV trope I think
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foolm0r0n posted...

It was an actual negotiation, not a choreographed dance of words like other GoT meetings. They were both struggling to convince the other person and they were both bad at it but kept trying. Kinda similar to King's Landing meetings with Tywin and Tyrion, but with protagonists instead.

This is really the biggest issue with the show by a wide margin. The plot changes are whatever. Some questionable choices but for the most part they did what they had to.

The writing of the dialogue, however, is very inconsistent - although it becomes consistently worse the more they deviate from the original material. A lot of it sounds like dialogue that's...well, written for TV. It's created to create entertaining soundbites and not much else. Characters set each other up for 'surprising' dialogue turnarounds and make a lot of witty quips. It can ruin the mood, both because it comes across as campy and because it betrays the fantasy aesthetic as they use a lot of phrases and wording that sounds more at home in a modern day setting.

I'm going to bring up two examples that were generally well-received but I had problems with. The first is Sandor's chicken scene in Season...4? It's entertaining and 'memeable' but it's not how Sandor or any real person would ever act or talk. It was way too silly. Another is Tyrion's 'I drink and I know things' line. It's way, way too on the nose and was a line created solely to make TV audiences laugh.

I think people focus way too much on some changes to plot or alterations to characters when compared to the source material - most of the time it ends up fine. The real issue that I think prevents the show from being able to meet/surpass the books is the dialogue writing. Season 1 copies a lot of lines verbatim and conversations easily sound the best in the series. Every season after that deviates from original dialogue more and more and it suffers every time. It's a huge pervasive problem in a show that is mostly talking!

It's especially weird because some TV-original writing is fantastic. Then you go to the next scene and it sounds like fanfiction. That's the problem with multiple writers working on the same thing, I guess.
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How much time has elapsed since Dany touched down in dragonstone?
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Obellisk posted...

How much time has elapsed since Dany touched down in dragonstone?

Oh boy. Well since we can't use travel times to estimate, I doubt anyone knows.
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It's been one week, six weeks, three months, and also six months. It depends whose story you're following.

It's like poetry. It rhymes.
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Jeff Zero posted...

It's been one week

since you looked at me
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I just don't understand why there are no walkers at the gates
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

It's been one week

since you looked at me

true story I started off that post planning to parody those lyrics
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The travel times are funny mostly because everyone can teleport except the Walkers and Arya.

Arya secretly a Walker confirmed?
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Arya teleported from Braavos so nah
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foolm0r0n posted...

Arya teleported from Braavos so nah

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe she got some sort of water dancer ability in Braavos, so she can travel quickly over water but not on land.
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

Arya teleported from Braavos so nah

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe she got some sort of water dancer ability in Braavos, so she can travel quickly over water but not on land.

She can walk on water? Like the Jesus?
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it probably took arya probably two months to go from braavos to the twins and kill walder frey

not sure what's not believable about that one, just because we didn't see it happen for shock value

there's been no teleporting, just euron sailing at an absolutely insane pace
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SeabassDebeste posted...

it probably took arya probably two months to go from braavos to the twins and kill walder frey

not sure what's not believable about that one, just because we didn't see it happen for shock value

there's been no teleporting, just euron sailing at an absolutely insane pace

He built a giant fleet using wood we never saw on the Iron Islands, found enough people to crew it, sailed to King's Landing, and then ambushed Yara despite her being an experienced sailor and Varys' specialty being spying and seeing through enemies' plans (though in fairness, Varys also missed Cersei's gambit at Casterly Rock, so apparently he sucks at his job now). I'm not saying these are major issues, but they do exist.
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since dany touched down in dragonstone, she sent a raven to winterfell (1 week?), and jon snow made it all the way across the north to white harbor (2 weeks?) and sailed to dragonstone (1 week?). he's probably been there for a few days, maybe a week, so 5 weeks total?

that would be a relatively sane pace for the unsullied to sail around the south of westeros if they were ironborn or something instead of non-sailors, i think, so i can accept that.

if we totally throw out cersei's comment about a 'fortnight,' then there's no reason that the assault on highgarden has to be *simultaneous* with the unsullied landing at casterly rock. that could be as much as two weeks later, which would make sense as it takes two weeks for randyll to leave king's landing to horn hill, a week to mobilize, and two weeks to link up with jaime and attack king's landing.

KamikazePotato posted...

I'm going to bring up two examples that were generally well-received but I had problems with. The first is Sandor's chicken scene in Season...4? It's entertaining and 'memeable' but it's not how Sandor or any real person would ever act or talk. It was way too silly.

sandor has almost always talked ridiculously, i thought it was both massively enjoyable and believable - it's rare that he's taunting someone directly to their face, but he's finally reached that IDGAF level in 4x01

Another is Tyrion's 'I drink and I know things' line. It's way, way too on the nose and was a line created solely to make TV audiences laugh.

it was a believable line that sucked.

Season 1 copies a lot of lines verbatim and conversations easily sound the best in the series. Every season after that deviates from original dialogue more and more and it suffers every time. It's a huge pervasive problem in a show that is mostly talking!

to me tyrion's 'wear it like armor' line to jon was immensely contrived to sound like tyrion was super-cool and wise. it made me cringe hard, and it's from the books.
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Anagram posted...

He built a giant fleet using wood we never saw on the Iron Islands, found enough people to crew it, sailed to King's Landing, and then ambushed Yara despite her being an experienced sailor and Varys' specialty being spying and seeing through enemies' plans (though in fairness, Varys also missed Cersei's gambit at Casterly Rock, so apparently he sucks at his job now). I'm not saying these are major issues, but they do exist.

Most of these are relatively minor.

Varys's little birds in KL were co-opted by Qyburn, while he was off-continent. And even if Varys found out CR had been abandoned, what could he do? You can't send a raven to Grey Worm as he's sailing with the Unsullied.

Euron ambushes Yara on a foggy night, and naval battles don't usually take place at night.

The Iron Islands are literally full of sailors, and not every ship was taken. The erection of the fleet is definitely the most obviously bullshit part about Euron, but the boats don't appear for five episodes, probably six months to a year, after he demands they be built. So let's just say they raided the wood-rich North for lumber?
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Anagram posted...

He built a giant fleet using wood we never saw on the Iron Islands

The implication is people dismantled their homes to build ships so they could go out and die for Cersei

Like what?? How is that a good storyline?
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Anagram posted...

He built a giant fleet using wood we never saw on the Iron Islands, found enough people to crew it, sailed to King's Landing, and then ambushed Yara despite her being an experienced sailor and Varys' specialty being spying and seeing through enemies' plans (though in fairness, Varys also missed Cersei's gambit at Casterly Rock, so apparently he sucks at his job now). I'm not saying these are major issues, but they do exist.

Most of these are relatively minor.

Varys's little birds in KL were co-opted by Qyburn, while he was off-continent. And even if Varys found out CR had been abandoned, what could he do? You can't send a raven to Grey Worm as he's sailing with the Unsullied.

Euron ambushes Yara on a foggy night, and naval battles don't usually take place at night.

The Iron Islands are literally full of sailors, and not every ship was taken. The erection of the fleet is definitely the most obviously bullshit part about Euron, but the boats don't appear for five episodes, probably six months to a year, after he demands they be built. So let's just say they raided the wood-rich North for lumber?

I agree that they're ignorable for the most part. I don't really mind Euron ambushing everyone and acting like a cartoon character even if the setup is weird. But don't say that he raided the North, no one in Jon's court mentions the Iron Islands at all. I'm willing to just accept it anyway.
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Interesting point. I think they would've been done gathering wood by the time Jon became King in the North. Ramsay would be the one dealing with the Ironborn, and we barely saw his court.

The Ironborn did raid/occupy North for a long time during the Wot5K. Possible they harvested wood during that time, but... I mean, it's the Ironborn, so yeah.

foolm0r0n posted...

The implication is people dismantled their homes to build ships so they could go out and die for Cersei

Like what?? How is that a good storyline?

well they really, really wanted to murder his niece and nephew

lol
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foolm0r0n posted...

The implication is people dismantled their homes to build ships so they could go out and die for Cersei

Like what?? How is that a good storyline?

Maybe Euron started sharing his meth
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There is no chance Euron is taking any less than all of the meth.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

The Ironborn did raid/occupy North for a long time during the Wot5K. Possible they harvested wood during that time, but... I mean, it's the Ironborn, so yeah.

Sometimes you take an axe to the common folk.

Sometimes you take an axe to the fingers during the Finger Dance.

Sometimes you take an axe to the trees.

It's all the same, man.
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Euron = Draven, both use axes, badass and are real men.
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It's really noticeable how many of the great houses have been wiped out:

Martell: 0 remaining
Baratheon: 0 remaining (unless Gendry and/or other bastards get legitimized)
Tyrell: 0 remaining
Tully: 1 remaining
Targaryen: 1 (2) remaining
Greyjoy: 3 (4 if you want to say the priest is Damphair, although I doubt it)
Lannister: 3 remaining
Stark: 3 (4) remaining
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RyoCaliente posted...

Tully: 1 remaining

He has a baby son I think.
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