Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 7 - Send a raven North... (SPOILER)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I remember GRRM saying a while back that only the wealthiest people have armor. The rest have chain mail but not the full set of armor. Now, I didn't notice if that's how it is in the show.
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Armor is a huge equalizer, but you have to expect that mounted Dothraki vs mounted Westerosi knight is going to be pretty different from the same match on foot.

Also - Jorah is one of the fiercest (white) knights of Westeros. He won a tourney when he was fighting for his wife.
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not everyone in westeros is a knight

there's really not that many of them and they are mostly noblemen
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but they have armor

that makes them knights
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the show actually has this completely backwards. in the books jorah is a purely mediocre fighter. him winning one tournament was to showcase a sense of realism. that even a great warrior can lose to a mediocre one on a bad day or from a bad stroke of luck. barristan is one of the best swordsmen in the world and even he thinks about this in his own POV chapters. what you have for breakfast in the morning can decide whether you win or lose a fight. basically in the novels almost every character is equal to each other in strength, and even the best fighters simply have an edge over others and are more likely to win but not guaranteed.

jorah's one tournament result is his exception, a fluke. that's not the level he normally fights at. the battle against the blood rider is specifically meant to showcase the fact that even a mediocre fighter can easily defeat a dothraki as long as they have armor on, because the arakh is ineffective against armor and the dothraki normally don't wear armor themselves (making them very vulnerable to counter attack). this works because jorah is a mediocre fighter.

problem is, pits of mereen, show turns jorah into a fucking superhero who can take down a collection of the best fighters from all over the world. this means that his season 1 battle is no longer a fluke, and it means that knights no longer have an advantage necessarily against dothraki. it could be that jorah is just that good. although the way the scene is directed seems to make it pretty clear that jorah was losing the fight and it was his armor that saved him. but whatever.

although thinking of it this way I guess I care less how this next battle goes down. I was thinking s1 established that knights > dothraki and so for dothraki > knights later to be a contradiction. now that I've thought about it, just seems like show has only established that jorah > almost everyone
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No mention of the Arryns? Kind of funny but I guess that shows how unliked/forgettable they were for a Great House. But they're technically doing just fine with the kid safe even though Littlefinger runs The Vale.

Fair point. I thought I was forgetting one of the big houses and it was definitely the Arryns. One remains.

OliviaTremor posted...

I think the showrunners really f***ed up by focusing on Dorne instead of the Iron Islands, trying to cash in on the Oberyn Martell fandom.

Not really. I think Dorne is way more interesting than the Iron Island, but I think they decided very early on not to pursue the Grif storyline and that is where Arianne's story is headed and Quentyn is a joke either way. So they were essentially stuck because people would wonder about Oberyn's people but they didn't really have a storyline to go with for the Martells. The most interesting about Euron are all the things that aren't in the show; the man sailed to fucking Valyria! (only this is only lamed up in the show by Tyrion and Jorah just paddling through like it's nothing)

MrGreenonion posted...

I assume the ballista will kill one of the dragons (probably Drogon because he's the only one that really matters) and then the Night King will raise him to the Army of the Dead.

No way. Drogon is way too powerful. Drogon is powerful enough to take on both Rhaegal and Viserion and would not be stopped by anything (except maybe those ballistae). I think Rhaegal will be killed by a ballista and Viserion will become a White Walker dragon.
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i thought tyrion and jorah paddling through the ruins of valyria was a real nice scene!
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Wait are you guys serious that you think a dragon will become a draco-wight?

If that were to happen, I just don't see who or what exists that could defeat that?
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The fire of its brethren?
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Wait are you guys serious that you think a dragon will become a draco-wight?

I will consider the series a gigantic letdown if we don't get a zombie dragon.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

The fire of its brethren?

oh yeah, duh.

So either it's unstoppable with no other dragon around, or gets defeated instantly with one near.

hm.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If that were to happen, I just don't see who or what exists that could defeat that?

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GANON1025 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If that were to happen, I just don't see who or what exists that could defeat that?

10/10

actually, i think it was a mistake for grrm to make the white walkers die to a single touch of dragonglass

i feel that's sam's plot armor literally wrecking the endgame.

a human can take multiple hits and keep going while a white walker gets obliterated - that actually makes the wight the most dangerous creature among the human-sized 3
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Bro the books and the show aren't the same.

no shit, I just wrote 4 paragraphs about how they aren't the same
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Did anyone else get his skill improved in the show? I've heard Brienne isn't as good in the books.
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almost every named character is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in the show than in the books.

most notable examples would be
1. ned is described as not being much of a fighter. show buffs him to be jaime lannister tier
2. stannis is a tactician and a commander, show has him joining in the front line in battles and cleaving enemy soldiers like it's nothing

I guess the only character who was really nerfed is Jaime because he's supposed to be significantly stronger than most other people, but since everyone is now jaime lannister tier he's just another random guy.
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stannis got his skill improved in the show. was never stated to be a good individual fighter.

possibly ned - we didn't get to see him and jaime *really* get it on. but that's more a result of jaime being de-buffed.

theon and asha slaughter like a dozen redshirts effortlessly in that battle, which i doubt they can do in the books

jon doesn't get into big battles in the books as much, but there are signs that he's just as ridiculously strong

brienne is both more capable and more willing to commit violence in the show. she has an awesome arc about nonviolence in book 4, but she's bloodthirsty in the show.

ironically, book-tyrion is hilariously, mary-sue-ishly powerful in combat, whereas in the show he's realistically pretty limited
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in whispering woods jaime takes down like 4 or 5 guys by himself I think, and this is considered a HUGE deal. Robb basically had an entire squad protecting him and Jaime almost singlehandedly cuts through the entire group. on the show... any character who is played by a named actor we recognize usually kills 4 or 5 guys at minimum during any major onscreen battle. the power levels between both mediums just aren't comparable so every single show character is naturally much stronger than their book counterparts.

I will say Brienne is a very capable fighter in her own rights, but people are more upset about her being able to take down The Hound since Hound is supposed to be one of the top 3 or 4 fighters in Westeros.
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the hound was crippled for that fight, though no one seems to know that. he doesn't make excuses about it, which actually i enjoy about him, because he has no ego. it fits.

(edit) god that fight was terrible though. i'm so fucking salty about everything brienne from seasons 4 and 5.
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it doesn't bother me either way. in the books the hound and brienne both have a 3 v 1 battle so we have a direct point of comparison between the two. brienne emerges from her fight mostly unscathed. the hound is mortally wounded and left to die by arya. hound was also drunk during his 3 v 1 battle, to be fair. brienne also loses a 2 v 1 later, which kinda showcases the inconsistency even among the top tier fighters anyway and how difficult it is to fight multiple opponents. make of that what you will.
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sorry, i'm sidetracking a little. i'm not bothered so much that brienne is stronger than the hound - maybe she is - as much as by the circumstances under which they even fight to begin with, and by the fact that the showrunners want you to root for brienne there
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GANON1025 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If that were to happen, I just don't see who or what exists that could defeat that?

If they made the episode where this happened a Pay-Per-View event, I wouldn't even stream it purely out of respect
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SeabassDebeste posted...

sorry, i'm sidetracking a little. i'm not bothered so much that brienne is stronger than the hound - maybe she is - as much as by the circumstances under which they even fight to begin with, and by the fact that the showrunners want you to root for brienne there

nah I think I get what you mean. I was more thinking they are probably in the same league so the idea of her winning a fight against him doesn't bother me as much as it does some other people.

oh another character who is BUFFED from the books is definitely loras tyrall.

so in the books, loras is known for being an excellent jouster. his brother garlan is actually one of the top swordfighters around. garlan did not make it onto the show. they seem to have combined these aspects of the characters on the show and just made loras a top tier sword fighter as well.
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Night King, army of the dead and possessed drogon vs. Euron, his teleporting superships and ramsay's 20 good men
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arya with preptime wins easy
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If that were to happen, I just don't see who or what exists that could defeat that?

dragon glass ballista

revealed in the final scene of S7
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MariaTaylor posted...

so in the books, loras is known for being an excellent jouster. his brother garlan is actually one of the top swordfighters around. garlan did not make it onto the show. they seem to have combined these aspects of the characters on the show and just made loras a top tier sword fighter as well.

when is this actually shown, though? in the show, loras nearly gets his head taken off by gregor, then gets punked in the melee by brienne. he wears renly's armor when tywin + the rose army win the blackwater, but that battle was such a rout that it's not clear loras was especially fierce.
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I think that tournament where he loses to Brienne was like a 100+ tournament that he got to the final of. So like, he's pretty good
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Thanks maria


Out of curiosity, are the Unsullied as bad in the books as they are in the show? Every time they show up, they get their asses completely devastated by anyone, including nobles with knives.
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the unsullied haven't left meereen yet in the books. they're rarely shown 'on screen' but they are indeed having trouble keeping the peace in the streets.

what happens in the fighting pits in the books is not a terrorist attack, so they don't job there in the same way to the sons of the harpy.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

theon and asha slaughter like a dozen redshirts effortlessly in that battle, which i doubt they can do in the books

Theon not in the books, being Reek affected him way more than in the show. Asha could probably do it, she's generally considered to be a good fighter. It's logical that she lost to Euron but it definitely wouldn't have been weird for her to take out regular dudes.

Anagram posted...

Out of curiosity, are the Unsullied as bad in the books as they are in the show? Every time they show up, they get their asses completely devastated by anyone, including nobles with knives.

Not really? The Unsullied don't get in as many battles in the books and the Sons of the Harpy generally only sneak kill them, taking out 2-3 a night, not a whole troupe like in episode where Barristan dies.
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On the subject of Barriston - I still can't believe they killed him off so early. What an incredible waste. He was one of the most likable people on Dany's council and his Book 5 stuff is some of its best content.
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sensitive language warning in the gif

https://media.tenor.co/images/858c176da6d880ec0f14a175f85215bf/tenor.gif
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also, idle thought - sansa and bran's scene under the weirwood, while incredibly awkward, was such a beautiful image

the weirwoods have always been stunning visually
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There's a lot to be said for Yara receiving formal combat training from a master at arms, being the daughter of a lord. I think its implied that that goes a long way when fighting guys who aren't formally trained.

Like its not a coincidence that Jaime happens to be an unstoppable killing machine and also one of the richest and most famous people in the world.
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And Ned is at the very least a good enough fighter to not die at the tower of joy. Obviously Arthur Dayne would have killed him but there's no shame in that. He outlived all his other comrades and killed or helped kill two legendary Kingsguard.
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I think Tyrion said that's why Jon was better than everyone when they were at the wall together.

Still it is a bit unrealistic to fight off 4 or 5 guys at once I suppose even if you are good. But I'll forgive the show that
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also tyrion went from the wall to winterfell in one episode, and from winterfell to the riverlands in the next

somehow the series survived this massive break in integrity
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IIRC, Season 1 actually takes place over a full year or so.

So >_>
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yeah, and the latest parts of S6 and S7 have taken place over long periods of time, too. people complain because there's no books telling them that time has passed, but it obviously has.

except for cersei telling tycho nestoris 'one fortnight,' fuck that shit
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For me, the problem is more that there's no sense of time passing. The only scene we got at Winterfell, for instance, made it seem like it's been all of a day since Jon left.

Though, as I said long ago, I've come to terms with the teleporting.
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Yeah, that's a bit of an issue with the visual storytelling. But it's not really a plot hole or 'bad writing' like it's often described as.

Also, since you were concerned about the way Selyse was depicted when Shireen died... Ellaria's reaction to Tyene getting the Long Goodbye was a fucking joke. What a terribly, terribly thought out character.
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If the travel took place over weeks or months, then we're to believe that brilliant spymaster Varys didn't know a gigantic Lannister army was traveling between Casterly Rock and Highgarden for possibly months and sent zero ravens to warn Dany's allies. It actually makes more sense if they can just teleport.
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well in that one instance teleportation evidently did happen

thanks to cersei's 'fortnight' comment lol

though let's say that varys finds out about westerlands troops mobilizing, but the unsullied have already sailed around the arm of dorne - how's he gonna get the message out?
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I can't not see Tycho as Mycroft and it actually pulls me out of the scenes he's in. So that coupled with 'fortnight' was auuuuuuuuuuuuugh,
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Do so many people take the fortnight comment so literally and not as a simple Cersei exaggeration boast?
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SeabassDebeste posted...

well in that one instance teleportation evidently did happen

thanks to cersei's 'fortnight' comment lol

though let's say that varys finds out about westerlands troops mobilizing, but the unsullied have already sailed around the arm of dorne - how's he gonna get the message out?

I'm willing to accept that he writes the Unsullied off as a loss, but he could've warned Highgarden. My impression of the homes of great houses is that they're all supposed to be able to survive sieges for months if not years. He could've at least sent a raven to say "Hey Olenna, heads up, Jaime is coming in a fortnight, close up your gates."

Unless he did, and Highgarden while prepared for a siege still fell in a day.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

though let's say that varys finds out about westerlands troops mobilizing, but the unsullied have already sailed around the arm of dorne - how's he gonna get the message out?

Can ravens teleport?
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foolm0r0n posted...

Can ravens teleport?

It would be a major oversight by the maesters if they didn't train the ravens to do the same thing humans can do!
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