Board 8 > ~~Japanese History~~ Mafia Topic 7 - I would have mourned my loss of life

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean I can just end it for Sbell I guess. That's kinda where I've been feeling anyway, for the extent of endgame. Dowolf doesn't wanna continue the NL. Pretty sure none of us vanilla will end up voting another, so it's looking like a perpetual dead lock.

I can't really justify wantING to lynch either dowolf or death here. If one of them is scum then a game well played.

Sorry if I am wrong: this is why I wanted to NL the day before!

##unvote:
##vote: Sbell
---

that's a stop, right?

has this long and painful road come to its end?
---

STOP

[3] SBell - Dowolf, Death, Gravy
[1] Death - SBell
[0] No Lynch - (Gravy)

SBell has been lynched. He was Kondo Isami, TOWN Bodyguard.

Gravy and dowolf were killed in endgame. They were Hayashi Yasusada, TOWN Vanilla and Nagai Naoyuki, TOWN Vanilla respectively

Death has won. He was Komatsu Akihiko, MAFIA Roleblocker. VI, Red and pezloco have also won


Alive (1):
Death

Dead (14):
[LD1] Oddity - Enomoto Takeaki, TOWN Vanilla
[KN1] Tombolo - Katsu Kaishu, TOWN Jailkeeper
[KN1] Chris - Matsudaira Sadaaki, TOWN Vanilla
[LD2] pezloco - Kirino Toshiaki, MAFIA Assassin
[KN2] KBM - Hijikata Toshizo, TOWN Cop
[LD3] Red - Saigo Takamori, MAFIA Vanilla
[KN3] Phoenix - Takenaka Shigekata, TOWN Prostitute
[LD4] VeryInsane - Meiji, MAFIA Godfather
[KN4] Plum - Tokugawa Yoshinobu, TOWN Jack of All Trades
[LD5] Scare - Yamakawa Hiroshi, TOWN Vanilla
[KN5] Sceptile - Makino Tadakuni, TOWN Vanilla
[LD9] SBell - Kondo Isami, TOWN Bodyguard
[Endgame] dowolf - Nagai Naoyuki, TOWN Vanilla
[Endgame] gravy - Hayashi Yasusada, TOWN Vanilla

Game's over, scum wins, I'll provide w/e on request.

Though I'll open by saying that no, dowolf, I don't have any obligation to force scum to shoot. In fact, by not shooting, Death almost threw a game that looked like a sure win going into day 6.
---

Darn. Close game. I started to think it was death by the end but he played really well to get that far. Hitting red so hard was a genius move.
---

(I'm pretty sure MZero intends to write flavor at some point, and dude's awesome for doing that, but honestly I'd rather have everything out instead of making you guys wait)
---

Also

Super special thanks to gravy and red for replacing for me when I needed them
---

I am sorry Sbell
less sorry to you Gravy/Dowolf
Nokilling was the correct play as soon as everyone started calling me more towny than dowolf
(and I dont see how I almost threw the game, but eh hindsight)
---

My concern about letting the game hang indefinitely at 4 is that all three town have to agree to win the game, which seems like an incredible advantage for scum. If two town vote for the scum but the third votes for someone else, the game hangs.
---

and I am susprised nobody looked back and saw how Dowolf threatened me onto red
after that I had to stay in character even when Gravy showed up

http://s15.zetaboards.com/AMafiaBoard/forum/5123521/

scumboard fyi
---

Had a feeling it was you but I think it'd have been a deadlock.
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

My concern about letting the game hang indefinitely at 4 is that all three town have to agree to win the game, which seems like an incredible advantage for scum. If two town vote for the scum but the third votes for someone else, the game hangs.

I am surprised this never came up before
I always see town just accepting that scum wont NK at 4 if it doesnt work the first time
---

I thought it was dowolf.

GG death.
---

greengravy294 posted...

Had a feeling it was you but I think it'd have been a deadlock.

well your initial reaction to me was right, even if the actual reasoning didnt seem very strong to me
thats gut for ya
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

My concern about letting the game hang indefinitely at 4 is that all three town have to agree to win the game, which seems like an incredible advantage for scum. If two town vote for the scum but the third votes for someone else, the game hangs.

If town actually uses its time instead of mindlessly NLing and refusing to play, it's doable

There's also the fact that the game practically won't hang very long in most cases because the players are all people. Somebody will get bored/impatient/frustrated and force something. That's why I chose not to force either side to move.
---

Ironically all of my reads were basically right upon replacing in. Oh well.

Mafia isn't very fun so I really had zero fun, later.
---

Thats why I felt sorry for Sbell
he was right about me, but he couldnt present anything that would convince Dowolf or Gravy
---

I was pretty close to having voted you but again I think it'd have been another perpetual dead lock so /shrug
---

we almost wondered if Sbell was an SK because town seemed very strong
but that would make town too weak again, so nah
---

greengravy294 posted...

I was pretty close to having voted you but again I think it'd have been another perpetual dead lock so /shrug

well to be fair, I could have nightkilled you once you were confirmed town
but I dont know if Dowolf would still buy into my innocense then, considering a scumbell would never kill you
---

Reg posted...

Sceptilesolar posted...

My concern about letting the game hang indefinitely at 4 is that all three town have to agree to win the game, which seems like an incredible advantage for scum. If two town vote for the scum but the third votes for someone else, the game hangs.

If town actually uses its time instead of mindlessly NLing and refusing to play, it's doable

There's also the fact that the game practically won't hang very long in most cases because the players are all people. Somebody will get bored/impatient/frustrated and force something. That's why I chose not to force either side to move.

Well, I think that's not really a good outcome. It was rational for town to continue to NL indefinitely, and gravy voted for SBell out of apathy because dowolf was locked in. I don't like when out of game circumstances force players to make inefficient moves.

I don't think you should have changed the rules on the fly, but I think forcing scum to shoot at 3/1 would be reasonable.
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

. I don't like when out of game circumstances force players to make inefficient moves.

Sceptilesolar posted...

but I think forcing scum to shoot at 3/1 would be reasonable.

Why force scum to do something and not town?

Reg made the right call.
---

greengravy294 posted...

Ironically all of my reads were basically right upon replacing in. Oh well.

Mafia isn't very fun so I really had zero fun, later.

That's a shame. You played well D3 to not be lynched and a scum was lynched in your place, which I would have enjoyed.
---

I was super scared the moment I replaced leo, btw.

Knew that I was basically ended before starting so my concern was just making the right connections in town(I wanted to live, but I was basically playing under the assumption I was going to be lynched at any moment).

Was setting Scare up to die 100% once I died. Blatantly ignored VI, Death, and a couple other people in the game.
---

Town mvp.... or something.

Dowolf is a shit.

Great game death.

What was the RB story? Dumb luck that kept working?
---

forcing scum to shoot is showing preferential treatment to town
but I do agree that there should be a rule in place for something like this
---

-FFDragon- posted...

Sceptilesolar posted...

. I don't like when out of game circumstances force players to make inefficient moves.

Sceptilesolar posted...

but I think forcing scum to shoot at 3/1 would be reasonable.

Why force scum to do something and not town?

Reg made the right call.

Because there's only 1 scum and 3 town. Town can't make decisions collectively easily, so the scenario is inherently biased against them. This is a balance issue, and clearly the two sides are not equivalent.
---

nah, no killing was never the correct play.

but w/e. scum made bad plays, got rewarded. It happens. I stopped caring about this game a week ago, so...
---

Obellisk posted...

Town mvp.... or something.

Dowolf is a shit.

Great game death.

What was the RB story? Dumb luck that kept working?

we blocked you by dumb luck yeah
and then day2, the way you reacted to Plum, made us think that you were power
(and we didnt have anyone better to block. because. we totally missed plums softclaim >.>)
---

Obellisk posted...

Town mvp.... or something.

Dowolf is a shit.

Great game death.

What was the RB story? Dumb luck that kept working?

We knew you were power after you reacted to SBell. We didn't play around a bodyguard (even though I figured there was one) simply because KBM was the only shot that looked reasonable Day 2 in a town full of mystery

Well, I guess there was plum but for some reason we never looked his way
---

dowolf posted...

nah, no killing was never the correct play.

but w/e. scum made bad plays, got rewarded. It happens. I stopped caring about this game a week ago, so...

It was when I became the most obvious nightkill somehow
---

dowolf posted...

nah, no killing was never the correct play.

Eventual outcome says otherwise, tbh. Its not like anything happened we didnt foresee.
---

htaeD posted...

but I do agree that there should be a rule in place for something like this

It's called happily ever after, where both teams lose.
---

So if Town no lynches Day 1, and scum no kills night 1 and it goes on indefinitely, is every game a draw?
---

Town's wincon is to eliminate all threats to town. If scum doesn't shoot, they're not a threat to town. You don't like that, change town's wincon.

also literally if Death shoots Gravy you win 5 days ago. All you did was waste all of our times for no reason.
---

It seems to me like scum should never shoot at 4, unless a) there is a power role alive they must kill or b) there is town who no one will lynch and who will only lynch you.
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGNZnfKYnU
---

htaeD posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGNZnfKYnU

Excellent.
---

VeryInsane posted...

So if Town no lynches Day 1, and scum no kills night 1 and it goes on indefinitely, is every game a draw?

-FFDragon- posted...

It's called happily ever after, where both teams lose.

---

Also you cant force town to shoot.

During the day both town and scum can lynch, its an even playing field.

Forcing scum to shoot gives an unfair advantage to town. Say you are in a position with Doctor, Tracker, Vanilla, Mafia with doc and tracker claimed/confirmed. Scum has to no kill endlessly or they auto-lose the game. The correct option is to disable No Lynch, to be perfectly honest.
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

It seems to me like scum should never shoot at 4, unless a) there is a power role alive they must kill or b) there is town who no one will lynch and who will only lynch you.

also I have Lylo PTSD for this exact scenario

as last scum standing I once killed the only player townspiral didnt suspect and was hoping spiral would tunnelrage and vote the other guy.
but he eventually saw how convenient it was that he was kept alive
---

it does make me miss being an SK
---

I will always no kill at 4, btw. Regardless of circumstances and odds

I just like the extra body and mindfuckery
---

if that's the way you want the game to be, then fine. Just change town's wincon. Because as the game is written now, scum refusing to kill should give the game to town.
---

Applause death and scum team. You guys did good in a very lose able sitistion. Really town defeated themselves with shitty play.
---

red13n posted...

Also you cant force town to shoot.

During the day both town and scum can lynch, its an even playing field.

Forcing scum to shoot gives an unfair advantage to town. Say you are in a position with Doctor, Tracker, Vanilla, Mafia with doc and tracker claimed/confirmed. Scum has to no kill endlessly or they auto-lose the game. The correct option is to disable No Lynch, to be perfectly honest.

If you're down to final four with two powerful power roles still alive, don't you think scum might have already lost the game for themselves? Or the game's balance is bad to not give them an out to that strategy.
---

dowolf posted...

nah, no killing was never the correct play.

but w/e. scum made bad plays, got rewarded. It happens. I stopped caring about this game a week ago, so...

Who's the asshole now...
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

don't you think scum might have already lost the game for themselves?

Literally no
---

dowolf posted...

if that's the way you want the game to be, then fine. Just change town's wincon. Because as the game is written now, scum refusing to kill should give the game to town.

I know how you feel dowolf, but I also feel the same logic can be applied in reverse
if its a valid strategy for town to nolynch even if it doesnt gain them anything, its also a strategy to nokill

that said, making nolynch 2 votes did thurt
---

Yeah no lynch should have been majority. That confused me.
---

Obellisk posted...

Applause death and scum team. You guys did good in a very lose able sitistion. Really town defeated themselves with shitty play.

yeah I was worried any one of them would ISO me and see the cracks
like Phoenix did
---