Poll of the Day > Why is America suddenly making a point of people kneeling?

(+) Yeah! (+)

darkknight109 posted...

This might give you a hint:

Then maybe you shouldn't comment on subjects you know nothing about

Professional sport teaches its fans how to be irrational. You can try to make it meaningful all you want, but at the end of the day its a bunch of people that come out to support and love a collection of human beings on the sole basis of they live where they live, or something

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

This might give you a hint:

Then maybe you shouldn't comment on subjects you know nothing about

You asked if I followed sports, not if I knew about the subject.

I read about the latter, I don't follow the former. Do try and keep up.
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darkknight109 posted...

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

This might give you a hint:

Then maybe you shouldn't comment on subjects you know nothing about

You asked if I followed sports, not if I knew about the subject.

I read about the latter, I don't follow the former. Do try and keep up.

Well, if you're keeping up you're doing a bad job since you know... you're wrong

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

This might give you a hint:

Then maybe you shouldn't comment on subjects you know nothing about

You asked if I followed sports, not if I knew about the subject.

I read about the latter, I don't follow the former. Do try and keep up.

Well, if you're keeping up you're doing a bad job since you know... you're wrong

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2685400-nfl-tv-ratings-reportedly-down-8-percent-for-2016-17-season
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GastroFan posted...

SunWuKung420 posted...

The news and our president are using the kneeling, which isn't a disrespecting jab at the military or veterans but actually a call to end racial injustice, as another dividing line in order to further distract us. They do not want us standing, or kneeling, together since a unified populace is the last thing a government seeking to hold us in a state of total control wants.

As a former servicemember, I have to agree with the statement above. When I served, I swore my loyalty to the Constitution; not to the flag or the President, no matter what race, party, etc. they were at the time. Someone once wrote, to paraphrase: The Flag is the last refuge of rogues and scoundrels; in 45's case, it's absolutely true since he's never served and has constantly wrapped himself in it.

Thanks.
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darkknight109 posted...

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

This might give you a hint:

Then maybe you shouldn't comment on subjects you know nothing about

You asked if I followed sports, not if I knew about the subject.

I read about the latter, I don't follow the former. Do try and keep up.

Well, if you're keeping up you're doing a bad job since you know... you're wrong

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2685400-nfl-tv-ratings-reportedly-down-8-percent-for-2016-17-season

I didn't say they didn't go down last season. I'm saying that there's been a noticeable decrease after the protests and rednecks boycotting. You obviously don't watch sports analysts like I do... so I reiterate... you are wrong

It's been a talking point for a reason. They aren't making it up

Nichtcrawler X posted...

Also seeing a lot of topics lately and tried to ask in those but got no response.

Kneeling is one of the most profound ways of showing respect, so why are people acting like it is disrespectful?

Please note, I am not taking a side in this, just explaining how I've understood it.

It's a matter of respect and protest. People are usually not required to stand for the national anthem (though they do ask that people rise). About a decade ago people wouldn't have given a **** if you didn't so long as you said it. However, a large part of this is because you're just one face in the masses as opposed to a famous player with the eyes of the nation upon you. It's disrespectful and it's using that position of popularity to broadcast your disrespect to the entire nation. To top it off, this is a football game, not a setting in which politics of any kind would ever be appropriate. Imagine you wanted to bring a bunch of friends over to play a game with them, but suddenly one of them decides to talk about some aspect of politics he hates. Would you be eager to talk about it or very irritated by it?

With its growth the dislike has gotten much worse. Especially since we're reaching the point where entire teams are opting to not even take the field except for one player, then the team turning on said player for 'throwing them under a bus'. The attitude being displayed isn't one of 'respectful protest' but 'outrage and hurt feelings; and if you disagree go **** yourself'. One player even stated that a bunch of people getting rid of their NFL merchandise out of dislike shouldn't come to the games ever again.

It's not *just* the kneeling, it's the attitude that's accompanying it and the increasing disrespect for the fans, especially those who disagree with them. It reeks of entitlement and elitism, especially to bring up an issue in which the players earning massive paychecks and showered in national publicity and fans are telling the people, some of which are struggling to get by and are using the sport as one of their few moments of enjoyment, to 'check their privilege'.

That's how I've understood the situation to be unfolding and why it's becoming a big issue.
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OhhhJa posted...

I didn't say they didn't go down last season. I'm saying that there's been a noticeable decrease after the protests and rednecks boycotting. You obviously don't watch sports analysts like I do... so I reiterate... you are wrong

Except what I said was...

darkknight109 posted...

Ratings were down long before this ever became an issue.

...which I just showed as true.
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Unbridled9 posted...

Please note, I am not taking a side in this, just explaining how I've understood it.

Your entire post definitely seems to be taking a side, just FYI.

Unbridled9 posted...

It's a matter of respect and protest. People are usually not required to stand for the national anthem (though they do ask that people rise). About a decade ago people wouldn't have given a **** if you didn't so long as you said it. However, a large part of this is because you're just one face in the masses as opposed to a famous player with the eyes of the nation upon you. It's disrespectful and it's using that position of popularity to broadcast your disrespect to the entire nation. To top it off, this is a football game, not a setting in which politics of any kind would ever be appropriate. Imagine you wanted to bring a bunch of friends over to play a game with them, but suddenly one of them decides to talk about some aspect of politics he hates. Would you be eager to talk about it or very irritated by it?

That's the entire point. That's exactly why the players choose that moment to make their protest - because it's noticeable. Because it draws attention (and, yes, outrage from some circles). Could they pick a different time for it, maybe after the game? Sure... and then nobody would notice and nothing would happen.

MLK used this exact tactic in the Civil Rights era. His first attempt at a protest was in Albany and, because law enforcement there basically did not engage him and allowed him to protest, his movement didn't gain much traction; he switched to Birmingham because he knew that people there (particularly Bull Connor, the chief of police) would fight against him and he could use that to draw attention to his cause. It worked brilliantly - the sight of peaceful black activists being sprayed with firehoses and having police dogs sicced on them remains one of the most scarring and vivid of that era and perfectly encapsulates the injustice King was fighting against.

The players here are using the exact same tactic. They are making a highly visible protest to draw attention to an issue that many in the country are content to minimize or flat-out ignore. The fact that people are getting outraged shows that it's working.

Unbridled9 posted...

It reeks of entitlement and elitism, especially to bring up an issue in which the players earning massive paychecks and showered in national publicity and fans are telling the people, some of which are struggling to get by and are using the sport as one of their few moments of enjoyment, to 'check their privilege'.

I'm pretty sure "Can the police please stop shooting unarmed black men?" isn't exactly something that a working-class NFL fan has much cause to be outraged over.
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Unbridled9 posted...

It's not *just* the kneeling, it's the attitude that's accompanying it and the increasing disrespect for the fans, especially those who disagree with them. It reeks of entitlement and elitism, especially to bring up an issue in which the players earning massive paychecks and showered in national publicity and fans are telling the people, some of which are struggling to get by and are using the sport as one of their few moments of enjoyment, to 'check their privilege'.

Most football players came from poor families. They've lived through the injustice they feel the need to protest against. If those that don't already garner national attention don't stand for something, who will? Will you? They are making a stand by kneeling. Although it may be mostly symbolic, they are trying. Most people just bury their heads in the sand.
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darkknight109 posted...

..which I just showed as true

We're you not implying that the protests had an effect....because it sure seemed that way and it kinda comes across like backpedaling now. If you weren't implying that then why argue my point in the first place?

OhhhJa posted...

darkknight109 posted...

..which I just showed as true

We're you not implying that the protests had an effect....because it sure seemed that way and it kinda comes across like backpedaling now. If you weren't implying that then why argue my point in the first place?

To what effect poor ratings are a continuance of the previously observed decline versus a response to the protest, I have no idea. I haven't been paying attention that closely.

All I was saying is that declining ratings in the NFL are not something that just popped up; they predate the controversy and that's pretty much inarguable.
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white people are angry cause they don't like having to think about black men as something other than entertainment

How can you protest something while making as little personal sacrifice as possible?

1. Complaining online.

2. Kneeling.

At least pull put your penis out something like they did on South Park.
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anondum posted...

white people are angry cause they don't like having to think about black men as something other than entertainment

I quite enjoy this racist narrative... white people bitch about white people protesting all the time.

Ogurisama posted...

war against china

Even Trump isn't dumb enough to go to war with China. It would mean WWIII and likely nuclear holocaust.

OhhhJa posted...

anondum posted...

white people are angry cause they don't like having to think about black men as something other than entertainment

I quite enjoy this racist narrative... white people bitch about white people protesting all the time.

so? doesn't mean the ones whining about the anthem aren't doing it because it's a bunch of black men daring to have an opinion rather than shutting up and entertaining them

anondum posted...

OhhhJa posted...

anondum posted...

white people are angry cause they don't like having to think about black men as something other than entertainment

I quite enjoy this racist narrative... white people bitch about white people protesting all the time.

so? doesn't mean the ones whining about the anthem aren't doing it because it's a bunch of black men daring to have an opinion rather than shutting up and entertaining them

I don't think it really has anything to do with that for most people. I think you have a misconception about white people

Unbridled9 posted...

To top it off, this is a football game, not a setting in which politics of any kind would ever be appropriate.

Isn't expecting stuff because of a national anthem being played highly political in itself?
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TigerTycoon posted...

How can you protest something while making as little personal sacrifice as possible?

You know that many of these players donate to (or sometimes head up) charities for underprivileged youth?

In terms of raw dollars, many of them have sacrificed more than you or I are likely to make in a lifetime.
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Nichtcrawler X posted...

Unbridled9 posted...

To top it off, this is a football game, not a setting in which politics of any kind would ever be appropriate.

Isn't expecting stuff because of a national anthem being played highly political in itself?

Not to them because they've got a case of the dumbs

Anyone have something intelligible sounding when it comes to supposed "racial inequality in this country?"

Because every time someone try to explain how the system is somehow racist again blacks in some way it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

dioxxys posted...

Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

Even though the laws say they should be treated the same, they just... aren't.
For instance, black people are disproportionately targeted by police. For breaking the same laws, a black person will be punished much more harshly than a white person. Even if that amount is "zero", minorities tend to get harassed and "inspected" way more often than is fair.
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dioxxys posted...

Anyone have something intelligible sounding when it comes to supposed "racial inequality in this country?"

Because every time someone try to explain how the system is somehow racist again blacks in some way it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

Here's a smattering:

"Black-sounding" names are 33% less likely to get a job callback than "white-sounding" names.
http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

...even if the white-sounding name had a criminal record and the black-sounding name didn't, the black-sounding name was still less likely to receive a job response
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/pager/files/pager_ajs.pdf

...and they are also offered lower pay for jobs and higher price quotes for cars.
http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2016/article/problem-has-name-discrimination

At every step of the way in the justice system, blacks receive a worse ride than whites. Blacks are more likely to be stopped for traffic violations, are more likely to be frisked while stopped, are more likely to be charged with drug offences (even though whites are found to possess drugs at a slightly higher rate than blacks), and are more likely to receive longer sentences for the same convictions compared to a white person.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html (<-- I'm aware HuffPost isn't exactly a high-grade source, but this article is a nice summary, and cites its sources, which can be easily looked up).

Note that this even applies to fucking schools, hence the "School-to-prison pipeline". Black children are more likely to be disciplined by their teachers, more likely to have formal marks added to their record, and more likely to be brought up on charges for in-school offences than white children.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/education-under-arrest/school-to-prison-pipeline-fact-sheet/
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Lightning Bolt posted...

dioxxys posted...

Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

Even though the laws say they should be treated the same, they just... aren't.
For instance, black people are disproportionately targeted by police. For breaking the same laws, a black person will be punished much more harshly than a white person. Even if that amount is "zero", minorities tend to get harassed and "inspected" way more often than is fair.

He wasn't asking the question to actually hear a reasoned answer. He's already made up his mind.

Mead posted...

Zeus posted...

Pretty big difference between not standing out of laziness and kneeling to spite the country.

The people kneeling have been clear and concise why they are doing so, yet you and countless others have embraced a fictional narrative because you aren't able to

Mead posted...

#DealWithIt

They've been clear about doing it to spite the country. #DealWithYourTreason

Yellow posted...

MacrossSpecial posted...

America is feeling impotent about fixing our real problems so we had to make up some easier problems to argue about.

This but change America to MSNBC to Fox.

I don't think any normal people really give a shit.

I'm not even sure what you're babbling about, but normal fucking people -- especially sports fans -- have been pretty vocally against it. (Well, as normal as a sports fan can be.)

Mead posted...

Otherwise LOL @ putting "racists" on the same level as criminals and guys tried for criminal behavior. Granted, almost every player taking the knee is a racist so they should be happy if they didn't get to play since it'd be taking racists out of the game.
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darkknight109 posted...

dioxxys posted...

Anyone have something intelligible sounding when it comes to supposed "racial inequality in this country?"

Because every time someone try to explain how the system is somehow racist again blacks in some way it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

Here's a smattering:

"Black-sounding" names are 33% less likely to get a job callback than "white-sounding" names.
http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

...even if the white-sounding name had a criminal record and the black-sounding name didn't, the black-sounding name was still less likely to receive a job response
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/pager/files/pager_ajs.pdf

...and they are also offered lower pay for jobs and higher price quotes for cars.
http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2016/article/problem-has-name-discrimination

At every step of the way in the justice system, blacks receive a worse ride than whites. Blacks are more likely to be stopped for traffic violations, are more likely to be frisked while stopped, are more likely to be charged with drug offences (even though whites are found to possess drugs at a slightly higher rate than blacks), and are more likely to receive longer sentences for the same convictions compared to a white person.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html (<-- I'm aware HuffPost isn't exactly a high-grade source, but this article is a nice summary, and cites its sources, which can be easily looked up).

Note that this even applies to fucking schools, hence the "School-to-prison pipeline". Black children are more likely to be disciplined by their teachers, more likely to have formal marks added to their record, and more likely to be brought up on charges for in-school offences than white children.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/education-under-arrest/school-to-prison-pipeline-fact-sheet/

Just change blacks and whites to men and women so you can go back to not caring about the issues.
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Zeus posted...

Just change blacks and whites to men and women so you can go back to not caring about the issues.

Aren't you the one who usually argues that the pay gap is a myth?

Careful about tossing those stones with all that glass around you there, Zeus.
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darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

Just change blacks and whites to men and women so you can go back to not caring about the issues.

Aren't you the one who usually argues that the pay gap is a myth?

Careful about tossing those stones with all that glass around you there, Zeus.

You're talking about the justice system, not pay equity. Unlike the fake disparity in pay equity, there's actual evidence for gender-based disparity within the legal system and, if you're so willing to push that under the table, feel free to dismiss this as well.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

Lightning Bolt posted...

dioxxys posted...

Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

Even though the laws say they should be treated the same, they just... aren't.
For instance, black people are disproportionately targeted by police. For breaking the same laws, a black person will be punished much more harshly than a white person. Even if that amount is "zero", minorities tend to get harassed and "inspected" way more often than is fair.

He wasn't asking the question to actually hear a reasoned answer. He's already made up his mind.

@wah_wah_wah

I dont know where you get off making up my mind for me

This is slightly off topic, but you know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3trbNiJcDMM
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Once again the Left Leaning Centrist is sounding off on potd with all of the current conservative talking points
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darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

Just change blacks and whites to men and women so you can go back to not caring about the issues.

Aren't you the one who usually argues that the pay gap is a myth?

Careful about tossing those stones with all that glass around you there, Zeus.

@darkknight109

But the pay gap is a myth, everyone knows that by now.

dioxxys posted...

But the pay gap is a myth, everyone knows that by now.

It's not a myth it's just explainable for social rather than discriminatory reasons. It possibly still points to a problem in society even if isn't the result of sexism.

Zeus posted...

You're talking about the justice system, not pay equity. Unlike the fake disparity in pay equity, there's actual evidence for gender-based disparity within the legal system and, if you're so willing to push that under the table, feel free to dismiss this as well.

Well, we weren't talking about gender until you brought it up, but you're correct that there is significant disparity in how the justice system treats men and women, and yes, that's all kinds of fucked up and needs to be addressed. I mean, it's nice of you to assume I don't care about that sort of stuff, but you're also dead wrong.

The pay gap is definitely real, though.

dioxxys posted...

But the pay gap is a myth, everyone knows that by now.

Nope!

Mead posted...

Once again the Left Leaning Centrist is sounding off on potd with all of the current conservative talking points

It's funny... Just for a laugh, I tried to recall a time where Zeus gave a left-leaning response to anything.

I came up with nothing.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjWBXbGVyQU

dioxxys posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjWBXbGVyQU

Sorry, your 15 second unsourced Youtube video hasn't convinced me.
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darkknight109 posted...

dioxxys posted...

But the pay gap is a myth, everyone knows that by now.

Nope!

Can you provide links to woman and men receiving different pay on the same job with a large enough population in the study?

Lil69Leo posted...

darkknight109 posted...

dioxxys posted...

But the pay gap is a myth, everyone knows that by now.

Nope!

Can you provide links to woman and men receiving different pay on the same job with a large enough population in the study?

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf
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The entire point is constantly being buried by white people fake crying about patriotism because they don't want to admit minorities face injustices and the fact that systematic oppression exists. Just like how the perverted the BLM movement.

Ib4someonemakesmypoint
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darkknight109 posted...

dioxxys posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjWBXbGVyQU

Sorry, your 15 second unsourced Youtube video hasn't convinced me.

Wait so you actually believe the pay gap bs?

I just assumed by now everyone was well informed that that was hogwash.

Also I dont really need a source because that video wasnt really saying anything other then the study that was going around was misrepresenting their data to make it seem like women are "discriminated against", but doesnt account for, like the video said, Job position, hours worked, or even the same job.

They basically took the average earnings of all men and all women put them side by side and said, "see women dont make as much because sexism!"

Mead posted...

Once again the Left Leaning Centrist is sounding off on potd with all of the current conservative talking points

Once again, the far-left misinformation Mead doesn't understand how centrism works and, because he's so far left on social issues, thinks that moderate stances are conservative.

darkknight109 posted...

Well, we weren't talking about gender until you brought it up, but you're correct that there is significant disparity in how the justice system treats men and women, and yes, that's all kinds of fucked up and needs to be addressed. I mean, it's nice of you to assume I don't care about that sort of stuff, but you're also dead wrong.

Given that you haven't even paid the issue lip service in the past, I find your avowed sudden change of heart both surprising and a little suspicious.

darkknight109 posted...

The pay gap is definitely real, though.

It's not. It's been debunked countless times.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#4de869312596

The gender pay gap lie is predicated on a purposeful distortion to garner political support and power. Frankly, I suspect you *must* know this yourself because, while I frequently disagree with your conclusions (partly because they're based on incorrect assumptions), I still have regard for your reasoning abilities.
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Slaves used to kneel before their masters. The whole thing is pro-slavery.
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dioxxys posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

Lightning Bolt posted...

dioxxys posted...

Like everyone has equal rights, what more is there?

Even though the laws say they should be treated the same, they just... aren't.
For instance, black people are disproportionately targeted by police. For breaking the same laws, a black person will be punished much more harshly than a white person. Even if that amount is "zero", minorities tend to get harassed and "inspected" way more often than is fair.

He wasn't asking the question to actually hear a reasoned answer. He's already made up his mind.

@wah_wah_wah

I dont know where you get off making up my mind for me

You've wasted enough of our time. Your protests of being open minded are bullshit. You can leave now.

I have less an issue with players kneeling or not kneeling or owners choosing to take action or not take action than I have with government most noteably the White House officials interfering with the affairs of private a business issue.

Agree disagree with the players or owners actions (whatever those actions may be) - neither is wrong and points can be made for both. The only group that is 100% wrong here is the government officials getting involved in and making threats and trying to arm twist the owners of a private business one way or another. And same goes for those using thier government office to get involved om the players end. I am not aware of any but that isn't the point.
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I didn't believe in the pay gap either, but now that I've seen how full of fuming hot gas the skeptic community is I'm starting to wonder.

Can't talk about Trump threatening WWIII on Twitter. Yeah we may be liberals, but look, SJWs!

Zeus posted...

It's not. It's been debunked countless times.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

Did you even read the link you posted? Here's a direct quotation from your "debunking":

"Indeed, if you look at men and women working in the same professions, the pay gap is much smaller (though for most professions, it doesnt disappear entirely)." Emphasis mine.

This has been studied and verified numerous times. I posted a study about it earlier, and you helpfully just proved my point for me with another source. Yes, the oft-cited "80%" figure is, at best, a distortion (though still worth talking about as a jumping-off point for the fact that women often work lower-paying jobs, which may be evidence of discrimination of a different sort), but that's not the same thing as saying that the pay gap doesn't exist; it does and has been well documented.
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This is NOT a post.

Please disregard it.
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