Current Events > You know what really bothers me about pro-choice people?

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lubmelubyou posted...

Human life means nothing. Never has, never will because we only care about our immediate selves no matter how much we pretend not to.

As far as I'm concerned an abortion can take place any time before it leaves the body as long as it is safe to do so for the woman.

But if human life not mean anything then why murder illegal? D:
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Conflict posted...

I think it's funny af when pro-life people suggest that people stop having sex

Not really. Is it funny af when anti-airborne-illness people suggest that people stop sneezing?
you can prevent a sneeze right as it is about to happen, just fyi
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HHH is the game posted...

To hate on somebody for being pro-life when pro-life people are, in their minds, preventing the murder of babies

We hate on them for putting their noses in things that aren't their business. It is literally none of your business. If Karin from up the street wants to get an abortion you have no right to make the decision for her.

If you are against abortion don't have an abortion. If you impregnate a woman and she wants one and you don't want her to, try to talk it out to some sort of agreement but no matter what you, me, nor anybody else should have the power to force a woman to have a baby, especially if she is at a health risk or was raped.

Do you really believe your own crap?

This discussion has gone for 26 pages and to be honest Im just kind of tired of it

But sometimes I see things I have to respond to.

I was very upset by the Parkland shootings. I am sick of these school shootings going on and think we need to do something to change it.

I am not in school anymore. I dont have any kids.

Its really not my business if a school shooting happens.

Too bad though, I still care.

As hard as this may be for you to believe, not everybody only worries about things that are their business. If youve ever worried about something like school shootings or police brutality towards others, then you should understand. I support things like gay marriage, and am against discrimination though it is none of my business at all.

That is one of the worst defenses I've ever seen.

If everybody minded their own business, NOTHING would ever get done.

And if you are on the left, to hate somebody for putting their noses in things that aren't their business is one of the most hypocritical things of all.

That is something that many people on the left do proudly. You can't get anything progressive done if you don't worry about anything that isn't your business and it would be a sad world where nobody is allowed to worry about the treatment of minorities besides the minority groups themselves
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Conflict posted...

I think it's funny af when pro-life people suggest that people stop having sex

And then they support a president who bangs hookers and porn stars.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Conflict posted...

I think it's funny af when pro-life people suggest that people stop having sex

Not really. Is it funny af when anti-airborne-illness people suggest that people stop sneezing?
you can prevent a sneeze right as it is about to happen, just fyi

I didn't realize sex was involuntary
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

lubmelubyou posted...

Human life means nothing. Never has, never will because we only care about our immediate selves no matter how much we pretend not to.

As far as I'm concerned an abortion can take place any time before it leaves the body as long as it is safe to do so for the woman.

But if human life not mean anything then why murder illegal? D:

Exactly. You can say 'THERED BE CHAOS'

Yet there would be no chaos if it was legal for a parent to kill their child in the first six months after birth where they won't know better.

Why are you against it then if you are?

What possible reason could there be besides value of human life?
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Conflict posted...

I think it's funny af when pro-life people suggest that people stop having sex

why is that funny? And Im not suggesting people stop having sex. Just people that can absolutely not support a baby. I mean birth control is not ALWAYS effective so you can take the risks but just be aware of and ready for the consequences
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You know it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right?

Part of making measured decisions regarding what we do and do not allow as a society includes understanding degrees of consideration based on specific situations.

It's ridiculous to insinuate that allowing it at one level means you need to allow it at every other level.

Dragonblade01 posted...

You know it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right?

Part of making measured decisions regarding what we do and do not allow as a society includes understanding degrees of consideration based on specific situations.

It's ridiculous to insinuate that allowing it at one level means you need to allow it at every other level.

But for the people who say that this is about feelings and human life has no value, what possible reason do they have for NOT allowing the murder of newly born babies by their parents?

I find these people hypocritical if they're not in favor of that, because whatever reason they say is going to be the same reasons they just blasted
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Abortion is a very hard decision. Most pro choicers know this.
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creativerealms posted...

Abortion is a very hard decision. Most pro choicers know this.

Im talking about the hard decision of whether a fetus is a life or not.

Asherlee10 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

If everybody minded their own business, NOTHING would ever get done.

This is irrelevant to abortion. If you are pro-life. That's fine. Don't have an abortion.

You have no right or grounds to interfere with someone else's choice.

Its not irrelevant to abortion if you believe the fetus is a life. I will say it again. If a mother killed her newborn baby and it was considered legal I would be incensed and say that this should not have been allowed to happen. Its the same thing.

Conflict posted...

It's funny because sex is a natural human desire and people are not just gonna stop having it because of an accidental pregnancy

Then they should have the baby? Or maybe get married to the father and raise the child? This is all fine, just take responsibility. Don't try to kill babies so you can have more guilt-free sex.

But yes, I will say again, I understand if people disagree with this. I don't dislike people who disagree for intelligent reasons like they genuinely don't believe a fetus is alive, but none of you people are acting like that is a hard question
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HHH is the game posted...

Do you really believe your own crap?

This discussion has gone for 26 pages and to be honest Im just kind of tired of it

But sometimes I see things I have to respond to.

I was very upset by the Parkland shootings. I am sick of these school shootings going on and think we need to do something to change it.

I am not in school anymore. I dont have any kids.

Its really not my business if a school shooting happens.

Too bad though, I still care.

As hard as this may be for you to believe, not everybody only worries about things that are their business. If youve ever worried about something like school shootings or police brutality towards others, then you should understand. I support things like gay marriage, and am against discrimination though it is none of my business at all.

That is one of the worst defenses I've ever seen.

If everybody minded their own business, NOTHING would ever get done.

And if you are on the left, to hate somebody for putting their noses in things that aren't their business is one of the most hypocritical things of all.

That is something that many people on the left do proudly. You can't get anything progressive done if you don't worry about anything that isn't your business and it would be a sad world where nobody is allowed to worry about the treatment of minorities besides the minority groups themselves

You literally want to FORCE people against their will to either lead celibate lives or to birth and raise offspring they did not want to produce. The cruelty of this is immeasurable.
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HHH is the game posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

You know it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right?

Part of making measured decisions regarding what we do and do not allow as a society includes understanding degrees of consideration based on specific situations.

It's ridiculous to insinuate that allowing it at one level means you need to allow it at every other level.

But for the people who say that this is about feelings and human life has no value, what possible reason do they have for NOT allowing the murder of newly born babies by their parents?

I find these people hypocritical if they're not in favor of that, because whatever reason they say is going to be the same reasons they just blasted

A line has to be drawn somewhere and the people you are referring to have simply conceded that the current drawn line is acceptable.
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Conflict posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Then they should have the baby?

"Just have the baby"

Not everyone is fit to raise a child and sex is not magically going to stop happening because of pregnancy risk.

"But it should"
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Its a sad world where people don't want to take any responsibility for their own actions
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HHH is the game posted...

hard as this may be for you to believe, not everybody only worries about things that are their business. If youve ever worried about something like school shootings or police brutality towards others, then you should understand. I support things like gay marriage, and am against discrimination though it is none of my business at all.

That is one of the worst defenses I've ever seen.

There is a pretty massive difference. Those people are sapient, they are conscious. When they are killed or discriminated they are suffering and a civilization's goal is to cut down as much suffering as possible. A brainless fetus doesn't suffer. This is also the argument against killing newborns, because a baby still feels pain. It's the entire point of doctors seeing if they cry. I mean, this is also why a lot of pro-choicers do put the line before birth from when the fetus's brain and pain receptors have fully developed.
Though like I said earlier. Anyone should still have the right to remove anything that is using their body even if it was a newborn.
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HHH is the game posted...

Its a sad world where people don't want to take any responsibility for their own actions

Abortion is a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. They take responsibility by terminating it.

What about in the case of rape pregnancies? Do you think abortion is okay then? If you were to argue that it should be okay in those cases but not others, I would have to shoot you down by bringing up the slippery slope about how if that were the policy, any pregnant girl/woman who wants to abort would just claim rape. Do you want that can of worms opened up? False rape claims are enough of a problem as it is.
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It's a simple enough answer for me to come up with personally, but I agree it's complicated when trying to come up with an answer as a society. Tbh I see nothing wrong with abortion at all and when you add in the concrete benefits it provides to society as a whole, it's quite clearly a net positive. But I obviously understand that it's next to impossible to get people to hold the same opinions I have on the subject so I'm willing to compromise.
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Lmao at "abort a newborn", if it hasn't been born then it's not a newborn. TC needs to pick up a dictionary.
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Who are you to determine when a fetus has personhood?

And when I say newborn Im talking about actual newborn babies who are similarly unaware of what is going on.

Its just funny that a lot of what you guys are saying would justify letting mothers kill actual babies after birth but in THAT case suddenly you guys care.

Why is killing a newborn != abortion? Whats the difference? The question is when is a fetus a baby. Would you agree that a minute before birth its ok to get an abortion? The question is where is the line. Not an easy question.

Is a newborn baby sapient and conscious? Sort of. But they are pretty unaware of anything. They don't understand life or death. You could 'kill' them painlessly. Still most people would not approve of this. And that makes me think these arguments are BS.
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HHH is the game posted...

Who are you to determine when a fetus has personhood?

I ask you that same question.

HHH is the game posted...

Why is killing a newborn != abortion? Whats the difference?

The difference is that a newborn is born and alive, a fetus is not

HHH is the game posted...

Would you agree that a minute before birth its ok to get an abortion?

So you're just going to ignore the whole trimester thing
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HHH is the game posted...

Who are you to determine when a fetus has personhood?

So why are you?
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HHH is the game posted...

Who are you to determine when a fetus has personhood?

And when I say newborn Im talking about actual newborn babies who are similarly unaware of what is going on.

Its just funny that a lot of what you guys are saying would justify letting mothers kill actual babies after birth but in THAT case suddenly you guys care.

Why is killing a newborn != abortion? Whats the difference? The question is when is a fetus a baby. Would you agree that a minute before birth its ok to get an abortion? The question is where is the line. Not an easy question.

Is a newborn baby sapient and conscious? Sort of. But they are pretty unaware of anything. They don't understand life or death. You could 'kill' them painlessly. Still most people would not approve of this. And that makes me think these arguments are BS.

Please respond to 275
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I agree, I acknowledge its a complicated case which is part of why I lean on the side of life. But you seem to treat it as if its not complicated at all and you are perfectly certain the fetus is not alive and don't even give it any thought. Do you see why this would be bothersome to somebody?

I feel like people are supporting the easiest solution that will allow them to have as much pleasure and as little responsibility as possible. Without a second thought.
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HHH is the game posted...

you are perfectly certain the fetus is not alive and don't even give it any thought. Do you see why this would be bothersome to somebody?

No not at all. It seems to weird to care about something not born yet.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Its a sad world where people don't want to take any responsibility for their own actions

Abortion is a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. They take responsibility by terminating it.

What about in the case of rape pregnancies? Do you think abortion is okay then? If you were to argue that it should be okay in those cases but not others, I would have to shoot you down by bringing up the slippery slope about how if that were the policy, any pregnant girl/woman who wants to abort would just claim rape. Do you want that can of worms opened up? False rape claims are enough of a problem as it is.

Abortion is not a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. If a fetus was a life, then you would be murdering somebody else to avoid dealing with the consequences of your own actions.

Its like Breaking Bad where Walt never once considers going to the police or turning himself in. He says he has been 'forced' to do things, and that usually involves killing somebody as his only solution. But we as the viewer can see that this is not taking responsibility, its AVOIDING responsibility by pushing off the consequences onto somebody else.

Ive said before rape pregnancies is something that is a very complicated question to me. It does feel like playing god to say that some babies should live and not others.

But I suppose my stance is that in some ways this is a case of the mothers right vs the childs rights. And somebody is going to suffer. For me, all it takes to make my choice is that in a case of consensual sex, the mother chose to do this and knew what the consequences would be. To me that is enough for me to prioritize the child. For me, she had her choice already and she made it. Rape makes that issue tougher. Because in this case the mother did not have a choice and very well may have never gotten pregnant in the first place left to her own devices. SO should she have to suffer for somebody ELSE's actions? I don't know.

I think in the case of A. the mother's health would be in jeapordy, or B. the mother can be shown to have not been able to consent to sex, then I would rule in favor of her. But yes its almost hypocritical.
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What defines life? Is it a heartbeat? Brain activity? Physical existence?
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Asherlee10 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Please respond to 275

He won't because he knows he doesn't have a solid argument. He simply ignored the discussion he and I were having at the start of this topic.

Which post have I ignored? Honestly Ive tried to withdraw from the topic because we obviously disagree and its been going on for 300 posts. Im a little tired of it. But I keep reading what people are saying and some of it is so egregious or logically manipulative that I have no choice but to respond.
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BatmanWTtP posted...

What defines life? Is it a heartbeat? Brain activity? Physical existence?

And see this is the question. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

I said multiple times in this topic if somebody was pro-choice because they didn't believe a fetus was a life but treated it with the necessary respect as a very tough philosophical question and acknowledged the viewpoint of pro-life people then I would understand its just something hard that we cannot agree on.

But the majority (90%) of people in this topic are treating pro-life people as moronic and stating as blanket facts things that are actually tough questions.

I have no choice but to believe they do this out of selfishness. They do it because its easiest for them to not think about the hard parts, and do what gives them the easiest answer. Because, obviously, if you think a fetus cannot be a life and that's just absolutely moronic then its great right? As much sex as you want with an easy out so you never need to take any responsibility at all. Its great to think of it that way! So they do.
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HHH is the game posted...

And see this is the question. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

Answer the question
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HHH is the game posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Its a sad world where people don't want to take any responsibility for their own actions

Abortion is a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. They take responsibility by terminating it.

What about in the case of rape pregnancies? Do you think abortion is okay then? If you were to argue that it should be okay in those cases but not others, I would have to shoot you down by bringing up the slippery slope about how if that were the policy, any pregnant girl/woman who wants to abort would just claim rape. Do you want that can of worms opened up? False rape claims are enough of a problem as it is.

Abortion is not a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. If a fetus was a life, then you would be murdering somebody else to avoid dealing with the consequences of your own actions.

Its like Breaking Bad where Walt never once considers going to the police or turning himself in. He says he has been 'forced' to do things, and that usually involves killing somebody as his only solution. But we as the viewer can see that this is not taking responsibility, its AVOIDING responsibility by pushing off the consequences onto somebody else.

Ive said before rape pregnancies is something that is a very complicated question to me. It does feel like playing god to say that some babies should live and not others.

But I suppose my stance is that in some ways this is a case of the mothers right vs the childs rights. And somebody is going to suffer. For me, all it takes to make my choice is that in a case of consensual sex, the mother chose to do this and knew what the consequences would be. To me that is enough for me to prioritize the child. For me, she had her choice already and she made it. Rape makes that issue tougher. Because in this case the mother did not have a choice and very well may have never gotten pregnant in the first place left to her own devices. SO should she have to suffer for somebody ELSE's actions? I don't know.

I think in the case of A. the mother's health would be in jeapordy, or B. the mother can be shown to have not been able to consent to sex, then I would rule in favor of her. But yes its almost hypocritical.

So rape abortions should be legal is your stance... but you did not address my slippery slope argument about how in the event abortion is illegal when sex is consensual, anyone can just claim rape to get an abortion.

"If a fetus is a life."
"If..."

I would address the rest of your post, but based on what I just put in quotations, I can just say that, followed by... Welp...
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People will get mad at this analogy but it's probably the same mindset that slave owners use to continue feeling guilt-free over slavery. Well the slaves aren't really people! Here comes Godwin's law. Its the same thing with the dehumanization of Jews in Nazi Germany.

If those people aren't people, then you aren't doing anything wrong. Right?

Obviously I am not saying abortion is the same thing necessarily as slavery or the holocaust.

Probably.

But let's say for a second that a fetus was a life. That these were actually babies.

Then what we're talking about is the mass murder of babies, right?

And the fact that people are so easily stripping them of their humanity....well...that does seem to be a massive issue does it not?

The difference of course is that we really don't know about the humanity of a fetus. Its a tough question to come to terms with. Obviously slaves were people and Jews were people. So its not the same thing. Thats an extreme example.

But I bring it up to refer to the fact that being so eager to strip them of humanity could just be a mental exercise to avoid dealing with the enormity of this discussion.

And viewed in that lens most of the things the pro-choice people have been spewing about emotions, and about responsibility becomes very silly. Almost callous really.

To say that abortion is none of anybody's business, to say its nothing like school shootings, to say its nothing like these other social issues, is to say that you are completely confident that a fetus is not a life and that this is an 'obvious' thing. That is just not true.

And I again repeat that most of the arguments you guys are posting could be just as easily applied to newborn babies and that is NOT an exaggeration. Most of the other arguments could be applied to fetuses in the 3rd trimester.

So please....don't childishly act like this is a simple argument. Yes there has to be a line and that's a complicated quesiton, so don't simplify it or ignore it to push your agenda.
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Asherlee10 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Please respond to 275

He won't because he knows he doesn't have a solid argument. He simply ignored the discussion he and I were having at the start of this topic.

Which post have I ignored? Honestly Ive tried to withdraw from the topic because we obviously disagree and its been going on for 300 posts. Im a little tired of it. But I keep reading what people are saying and some of it is so egregious or logically manipulative that I have no choice but to respond.

You conveniently start ignoring posts once you are backed into a corner. And you don't know which post? It's the one I've tagged you in 4 times now that you won't respond to. I did it again just a few posts up.

Can you give me a number there's a lot of posts in this topic
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Fetuses are not humans yet. You can't dehumanize something that isn't human.
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Asherlee10 posted...

We assign rights, specifically, right-to-life based on qualifiers for persons. Personhood, for the purpose of establishing laws, has been decided upon by most developed nations. You don't get to supersede the rights of a person with established personhood and pass them to a fetus that is dependent on that person (the mother) who does not have personhood status.

And why is determining personhood an easy question to you? Why should we not critically examine things that have been done in the past?
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Tmaster148 posted...

Fetuses are not humans yet. You can't dehumanize something that isn't human.

What determines humanity? When is a person a human? Would you abort a baby the night before her due date? Shes not a human yet, right?
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Yes, the fetus is a life. Human life, no less.

And? That's not the only issue when it comes to abortion. Arguably, it's not even the most important one.